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Finally read the Errata/clarification page


Sandwich

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Not going to bother quoting because it's all the same basic comment.

There is not one significant and powerful model under the resser's plethora that is not usable by another faction that uses it better.

Even the Dead Rider's new deal of dropping ONE corpse counter and TWO scrap counters.

And Night Terrors, our designated objective grabber, is really meant for LCB.

Who has an entire bury mechanic designed for models like them.

We have no model designer with any kind of real interest towards our faction, and it absolutely shows.

But there's plenty that love the Neverborn.

It's been irritating since I first took interest in this game but with every single step Wyrd takes with this property it becomes more and more apparent that there's no real design philosophy at all.

Look at Crooligans, the Drowned, or any non-spirit model from the second book and most of our roster from the first.

And then compare that to Neverborn or Guild equivalents.

It's beyond pointless to state this opinion because most of the people that play this game favor other factions and thus cannot see the imbalance present and will then argue petty semantics or whatever statement they choose to make to disprove the point that I've just made.

I'm sick and tired of doing everything I possibly can to talk up the Ressurectionist faction as anything more than a bunch of worthless models and then Kirai's crew because I really do want Wyrd to succeed.

You guys need to hire someone that seriously loves the Ressurectionists as much as your lead designers love the Neverborn because we need some serious love.

EDIT: And no, I'm not saying that because I want to work for you.

I'm saying that because for people to take this game seriously, you need a very high amount of harmonic balance that outshines your competetion.

Edited by Sandwich
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Because I thought at first it was just simple ignorance in design.

and then I read that OUR Rider, the DEAD RIDER is dropping 1 Corpse counter and 2 Scrap?

And that Chompy can take Night Terrors at listed cost?

It shows that there is NO intent to fix this faction.

And that their interests lie elsewhere.

And you're correct that I have a general dissatisfaction, Mike, about the way the Ressers are ignored.

It's only compounded by how many people I've gotten interested in this game, who see the ressers, compare them to the Neverborn and then realize that this game will never be as successful as 40k or wm.

And so they choose to just not play it.

And it $$$$$$$$es me off severely.

Because to hell with 40k and WM.

But what can I do other than complain to the forums?

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I think Sandwich has a point. Resurrectionists are looking kinda underpowered lately.

The game is complex enough that it's still possible to win with a Resurrectionist Crew, but I think there are some game balance issues here.

Mind you, I love Malifaux all over the place and I'm still excited about it, but I think Sandwich has a point.

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That's the thing, I still love the game.

I'm sorry if I'm using harsh words but I am incredibly frustrated at the ongoing situation.

And the fact that every single person I've attempted to get into this game take about a day or two before they or call out the game for its imbalance.

I just want a thriving Malifaux community in my area.

And it won't happen until a new design philosophy for the ressers comes into play.

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How can new players discover the imbalance within a couple of days? Something that would take many many games of various master pairings. Maybe they're just parroting opinions they've read online regarding the imbalance?

Admitedly I don't see any reason for Night Terrors to be available to Dreamer, he's got more than enough options without them. I'd view that as an issue with Dreamer rather than with Rezzers though. Dead Rider is a powerhouse of a model and he's hardly handicapped by the types of counters he drops. I'd go so far as to say he's the best rider, and he can be taken by any Rezzer master.

Are there other Rezzer models you have particular issue with?

Mike

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I'm relatively new to the game and while I take your point, I think the nature of the game is such that almost certainly balance between factions (never mind masters . . . ) is going to be impossible to achieve. Malifaux, although requiring fewer models, has probably more options available to the player than 40K does and though perhaps the units do not have more special rules, there are more unique special rules. My own feeling is that it's just impossible to balance such systems to every players' satisfaction, or even to provide broad balance between factions.

What Malifaux does do is allow you to play to your strengths by tailoring your crew to the mission and selecting appropriate schemes, which mitigates imbalance to a degree that other games don't tend to allow (certainly 40K does not). But it's an imperfect 'solution', I agree.

I do think though, and I have a fairly long and broad experience of wargaming, that if you want a game where there is as much variation between units as Mailfaux offers, you have to accept that more imbalance than is usual goes hand in hand with that.

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Just to be clear, THIS designer doesn't approach model/Faction design any differently regardless of which Faction I'm working on at any time. Yes, I have favorite models...ACROSS all five Factions. That's human, not a conspiracy, but I don't let it influence my work. So there's no favoritism on this end when it comes to Faction design, and since I have a pretty powerful voice on what you see on the pages, I work hard to ensure nobody else works it that way either.

It may simply be that players don't get how the Res really should be used and instead use a tactic that's worked in the past and thrown around online but really isn't as useful as they think it is (Crew sacrifice builds and whatnot).

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You guys need to hire someone that seriously loves the Ressurectionists as much as your lead designers love the Neverborn because we need some serious love.

Obviously this Designer has never played Resurrectionists in his life. However I do not play favourites when designing. I look at what each faction needs to balance it and try to give them what they need.

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It's only compounded by how many people I've gotten interested in this game, who see the ressers, compare them to the Neverborn and then realize that this game will never be as successful as 40k or wm.

And so they choose to just not play it.

Wait, people who think that balance is important go back to 40k after they see the Ressers?

Wow.

I mean, I play 40k and it's fun (and in a niche of its own) but it really isn't very balanced.

Obviously this Designer has never played Resurrectionists in his life. However I do not play favourites when designing. I look at what each faction needs to balance it and try to give them what they need.

Aye, Crooligans were definitely what the Ressers were sorely lacking ;)

(I tease because I love)

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I am with Ratty and keltheos. You need to change the way you play your res. List that make you kill your own tends to make you slower in all aspect. I have almost all res model and i will only buy them for now.

I would not change the way that the res are done and i think that it's great to have that many choice to play with.

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One thought on the Dreamer getting Night Terrors at no markup. I think this might be a bit of a concession to the big cuddles he received via the Bury Errata and Companion clarification.

I still think it's weird (not wyrd) that the Twins are Nephilim, Woes and Nightmares all at the same time (thereby making them the only non-living Nephilim, and tailored to work with the special rules of all of the Neverborn masters) and I think that might have been a bad design decision, but that's just my opinion.

I certainly do see logic in many of the posts on why Ressers are considered to be weak, but I feel that Sandwich can sometimes come across as jumping to conclusions. I've also noticed that Sandwich is willing to backtrack when he comes to a different conclusion later.

Another thought: Keltheos mentions that it's possible some of the doom and gloom is possibly related to Resser players playing Ressers in ways that might not actually be optimal for Ressers (perhaps due to misconceptions about the faction). That suggests that there are ways to play the faction that aren't often discussed on the boards. I'm wondering if Keltheos (or someone else in the know?) might be willing to share more about that?

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What sort of surprises me is that this is an issue now. It's been a while known that dead rider drops one corpse 2 scrap and that night terrors work for LCB. As for the rest of the errata, the only things that stand out to me are the Kirai avatar damage buff and the Shikome summon cuddle, rest seemed pretty standard to me.

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How can new players discover the imbalance within a couple of days? Something that would take many many games of various master pairings. Maybe they're just parroting opinions they've read online regarding the imbalance?

Admitedly I don't see any reason for Night Terrors to be available to Dreamer, he's got more than enough options without them. I'd view that as an issue with Dreamer rather than with Rezzers though. Dead Rider is a powerhouse of a model and he's hardly handicapped by the types of counters he drops. I'd go so far as to say he's the best rider, and he can be taken by any Rezzer master.

Are there other Rezzer models you have particular issue with?

Mike

Most 'new' (As in never played a miniature game before) will flock to either; Som'er, LCB/Dreamer, or Seamus.

Those three masters are the most appealing becausethey Look the most badass, have the funniest theme, or are akward enough to be visually and literarily enticing.

Most players are going to obviously flock to Seamus or LCB because they're the more badass of the three (With LCB leagues ahead of the rest.)

So you get two new players with box sets (Or occasionally extra models) that play.

I always tell my Seamus lovers to check out my Tactica for some basic pointers and will gladly help them out in picking crews (Both sides) to achieve maximum VP.

I'm no stupid player (In case you've never read anything I've ever written in the world of Malifaux forums) and will clarify whatever I need to clarify as they play.

What has happened more than once is that the Seamus player does his/her best to utilize his/her strengths (Durability, utility. Dreamer outclasses Seamus in mobility.) and still gets stomped.

Why?

The Dreamer has higher utility, higher mobility, better damage and greater survivability.

There's no model that Seamus can take that can counter a well played Dreamer crew.

Not even Mercenaries.

So the players get frustrated, Seamus, because he can't win, LCB, because he's leagues better.

It goes the same for Zoraida, Pandora, and even Lilith.

(And Collodi.)

They take my books for a day or so, realize the flaws in the game, and decide to flock to the fledging Warmachines games at some of the local game stores here in washington.

And to be honest, I don't find the powerlevel of the Neverborn to be too high.

Neverborn versus Guild is a fair match, Neverborn versus Outcasts is a fair match, neverborn versus Arcanists, sometimes a fair match.

Neverborn versus any resser but Kirai? It's a stomping match.

I've only ever won because I'm meticulous and very, very intelligent.

Which may make me come off as a terrible person, but I promise I'm a sweetiepie.

I'm relatively new to the game and while I take your point, I think the nature of the game is such that almost certainly balance between factions (never mind masters . . . ) is going to be impossible to achieve. Malifaux, although requiring fewer models, has probably more options available to the player than 40K does and though perhaps the units do not have more special rules, there are more unique special rules. My own feeling is that it's just impossible to balance such systems to every players' satisfaction, or even to provide broad balance between factions.

What Malifaux does do is allow you to play to your strengths by tailoring your crew to the mission and selecting appropriate schemes, which mitigates imbalance to a degree that other games don't tend to allow (certainly 40K does not). But it's an imperfect 'solution', I agree.

I do think though, and I have a fairly long and broad experience of wargaming, that if you want a game where there is as much variation between units as Mailfaux offers, you have to accept that more imbalance than is usual goes hand in hand with that.

You have a point, yes, but the problem you're going to encounter with that argument is

What if you're stronger at my strength than I am?

What can Seamus and ANY models available to him do that Pandora cannot do a thousand times better?

Or Zoraida, or the Dreamer, or Lilith?

Or even compare Seamus to any guild masters.

I think he's on par with Sonnia just master vs master, but you start adding in an Exorcist and then it's all downhill for the Resser.

And not just Seamus, I'm talking Nico or McMourning.

Kirai doesn't count because she's a massive super power in the Resser's leagues.

And you could easily make the point "Well just play Kirai then."

But what about the players that LOVE Seamus and his zombie hookers, or Nicodem and his (supposed) legion of the dead?

Seamus is by far the most amazing character I've ever seen in literature, matched only by Anton Chigurh and that's only because of the movie.

I want to play Seamus, I want to play Nico, I want to play McM.

But if I do, I'm leagues behind any neverborn master.

It isn't right.

And I fully believe its possible to bump up the power level of masters individually without compromising anything significant.

Just to be clear, THIS designer doesn't approach model/Faction design any differently regardless of which Faction I'm working on at any time. Yes, I have favorite models...ACROSS all five Factions. That's human, not a conspiracy, but I don't let it influence my work. So there's no favoritism on this end when it comes to Faction design, and since I have a pretty powerful voice on what you see on the pages, I work hard to ensure nobody else works it that way either.

It may simply be that players don't get how the Res really should be used and instead use a tactic that's worked in the past and thrown around online but really isn't as useful as they think it is (Crew sacrifice builds and whatnot).

I honestly don't think the underpowered nature of the Ressurectionist models is because of any sinister thought.

My belief is that with 5 factions and something like a hundred models already, + the additional models you have to add to give players new things to teethe upon, you guys have forgotten what it is that Ressurectionists NEED, and in doing so, you've created models like the Crooligan.

Although the above statement is no excuse for giving our most powerful models to other factions at even cost with better synergy.

Also, the argument "None of our resser players understand how we made the models to be played" isn't in any way helping a counter argument.

And while everything I've just said is very rude, I don't mean for it to be.

I really do respect you Kel, you're a great dude.

And I'm just a grumpy-poo but when I get frustrated.

Obviously this Designer has never played Resurrectionists in his life. However I do not play favourites when designing. I look at what each faction needs to balance it and try to give them what they need.

Then you haven't looked at the Ressurectionists, Ratty.

And before I get yelled at.

The current ideal for the Ressers is

1. Tanky as all get out.

2. Replenishable models. (Corpse Counters)

3. Low ranged, moderate damage, but decent Wp management. (Terrifying, debuffs)

4. High Utility.

5. Moderate mobility.

If that is incorrect, please correct me so that I can rethink my belief on how I've been playing.

But if the aforementioned design philosophy IS correct, then you're doing well in base, but poorly overall.

We need better mobility management outside of spirits, better damage over more models and a greater emphasis on being very difficult to kill.

And frankly I believe we're all but last in place for "High Utility" as there just isn't much anything can do at this point compared to other factions.

Edited by Sandwich
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I keep telling rezzer players this and they always ignore me. If you are relying on corpse or any other counter, you're doing it wrong.

OTOH that's a bit like saying that if you rely on getting good cards you're doing it wrong. In that yeah, sure, but getting those good cards certainly helps.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that many people come to the Ressers to, you know, resurrect stuff. That tickles their fancy. So designing ressers from the point of view that resurrecting stuff is supposed to be suboptimal is... maybe not the best way of going about designing them.

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What sort of surprises me is that this is an issue now. It's been a while known that dead rider drops one corpse 2 scrap and that night terrors work for LCB. As for the rest of the errata, the only things that stand out to me are the Kirai avatar damage buff and the Shikome summon cuddle, rest seemed pretty standard to me.

It isn't an issue right this second, it has been for a long time.

But I'm to the point now that I see a pattern that concerns me and I've chosen to point it out at this point in time.

It's not specifically the fact that the Rider drops 2 scrap instead of 2 corpse, but the fact that there is no desire to empower the resurrectionists from their current state.

Outside of Kirai.

Who is on par in power with other masters currently.

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I keep telling rezzer players this and they always ignore me. If you are relying on corpse or any other counter, you're doing it wrong.

Two things.

1.) Resurrecting is currently in the name of the faction and thus implies their overall tone.

2.) Some of the most powerful Resurrectionist strategies currently involve a heavy reliance on personally produces Corpse Counters.

There's nothing wrong with Relying on Corpse Counters to overpower your opponent.

What's your main master?

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

One thought on the Dreamer getting Night Terrors at no markup. I think this might be a bit of a concession to the big cuddles he received via the Bury Errata and Companion clarification.

I still think it's weird (not wyrd) that the Twins are Nephilim, Woes and Nightmares all at the same time (thereby making them the only non-living Nephilim, and tailored to work with the special rules of all of the Neverborn masters) and I think that might have been a bad design decision, but that's just my opinion.

I certainly do see logic in many of the posts on why Ressers are considered to be weak, but I feel that Sandwich can sometimes come across as jumping to conclusions. I've also noticed that Sandwich is willing to backtrack when he comes to a different conclusion later.

Another thought: Keltheos mentions that it's possible some of the doom and gloom is possibly related to Resser players playing Ressers in ways that might not actually be optimal for Ressers (perhaps due to misconceptions about the faction). That suggests that there are ways to play the faction that aren't often discussed on the boards. I'm wondering if Keltheos (or someone else in the know?) might be willing to share more about that?

I don't think the two cuddles hurt the Dreamer significantly, I've seem him easily dominate opponents even with his lessened power.

You're absolutely right I sometimes jump the gun, and when I'm proven wrong, I'll gladly admit I'm wholly wrong and stop my argument.

I'd think that'd be respectable.

However, in the three years(?) I've played Malifaux, the trend of weakness in my favorite faction has been consistent.

I bring this thread about now because I have nothing to do today and I'm a tad bit upset about it.

Although I've been a $$$$$$$$ypot for a while about it.

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Just to be clear, THIS designer doesn't approach model/Faction design any differently regardless of which Faction I'm working on at any time. Yes, I have favorite models...ACROSS all five Factions. That's human, not a conspiracy, but I don't let it influence my work. So there's no favoritism on this end when it comes to Faction design, and since I have a pretty powerful voice on what you see on the pages, I work hard to ensure nobody else works it that way either.

It may simply be that players don't get how the Res really should be used and instead use a tactic that's worked in the past and thrown around online but really isn't as useful as they think it is (Crew sacrifice builds and whatnot).

Obviously this Designer has never played Resurrectionists in his life. However I do not play favourites when designing. I look at what each faction needs to balance it and try to give them what they need.

I like gremlins better.

Mostly because they are better.

Basically, my design philosophy is that Malifaux is filled with powerful models so that it is more satisfying when my mosquitoes fart on them.

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