Hamelin - is he really that hamy?

[graeme27uk]

Hello once again,

Now that I have the cards/rules for more stuff I have been looking at a few more options; Hamelin amongst them.

Reading views and such, it appears that Hamelin is for many people, overpowered. I have a few things that I would like to ask though.

1) Rat Catchers - I can se some tricks that they can use/abuse... Am I right that by using Slaughter Rats and the Voracious Rats together, you can get some cheesiness (pun intended)? So Rat Catcher uses Mouldy Cheese to draw in rats if needed. Once rats are in 6" then use Slaughter Rats to kill them all off. However, because of Voracious rats, you get new rats that can activate again...

2) Is there anyway, apart from killing things to get more rats?

3) The death/rebirth thing with Indiscriminate Void is ok. But is there anyway to overcome the -4Ca which is a bit crippling in terms of future casting from then on in?

4) Can you use Lure Malifaux Citizen to get a new Stolen, then immediately sacrifice said Stolen to use "Useless Toy" for the ++ bonus?

5) Blight counters... I assume that you use Rats to put Blight Counters on enemy things..

6) Is the Obedient Wretch worth taking? I guess Blind Dedication is good considering Ham's card mechanic.

7) If you sacrifice models, then that doesn't count as a kill right? So I guess you use the Stolen from "Lure Malifaux Citizen" for things like "Understand the Soulless", "Obedience", "Abandoned Soul", etc...

8) How effective are rats? They seem pretty weak, Hamelin doesn't boost their effectiveness apart from making them return if he is within 6"; same for Rat Catcher.

9) How effective is "Bleeding Disease" as an offensive spell? Do you really build up that many Blight counters? Do Blight counters disappear at the end of the turn or are they permanent for the model they are attached to?

10) What is the use of "Inevitable Truth"?

11) What other tricks/tips are there for playing Hamelin? What am I missing that makes him so hated to play against?

[Dreygan]

*waits for the inevitable magicpockets post*

[Odin1981]

I don't play him but I have played against him so I can answer a few things.

The big thing most players don't like about him is that him as well as pandora don't let you "play the game as in rulebook referance" they make you play against the master/crew themselves. That being said I normally run wp 6 or better crews and while I wouldn't want to play against either on a consistent basis. I have no problem playing them in general (just not something I'd wanna do week in week out).

The big thing with hamelin imho is that due to being able to spread insignificant and their off the top of my head being only 2-3 ways (shrug off, dispell magic, and maybe the ability zoraida has that allows you to take something off a dude but I don't play her so im guessing on this one) of getting rid of it he can just walk by models and cast the spell and bam the model(s) are useless. This in my view is probably what drives most people bonkers over hamelin.

[Finnegan]

Inb4 magicpockets

1. Slaughter Rats + Voracious Rats is the Rat-Catcher's bread and butter. Rata are Slow to start with, so you get your normal 2 actions per turn, plus four zero actions for positioning/buffing, plus you get rid of any nasty effects...

2. Nix has a trigger that allows him to summon a rat, but I've never seen it used. Killing things is much more efficient.

3. There is no way to overcome the -4Ca. If Hamelin dies and gets brought back, you can turn him into a melee beatstick: he still has a very high damage potential.

4. You can spawn a Stolen and sac it immediately, but you can only spawn one stolen a turn, so be sure to keep at least one alive to save Hamelin

5. Yep. Rats are the only ones that give Blight counters, unless you have Hamelin's avatar (which isn't out yet)

6. I myeslf prefer the Primordial Magic. It has a Mask on its cast, so it's a lot easier to cast Hamelin's spells, it's a spirit so it can float to safety, and as long as you keep it close to Hamelin or a Rat-Catcher, it'll turn into a Rat when it dies.

7. Sacrificing, does not count as killing, correct. The stolen are the main targets for saccing, but in a pinch you can sac a few rats.

8. On their own, rats are no good at all. But, considering they swarm, i.e. all activate at the same time in a bubble of 4", and considering they can move into base contact with one another as a zero action, they are much faster than they seem. And when they attack collectively, they will put a lot of hurt on what they're targetting, as well as Blight counters and potential Wp debuffs.

9. I myself haven't used Bleeding Disease much so far, but against models with a lot of wounds or who can heal themselves, it's a good way to put some damage on them. Blight counters do stay on models throughout the game.

10. Inevitable truth, combined with Understand the Soulless, allows you to an opponent's strong combat model useless, since they have to attack Hamelin but can't. I've also once cast it with the Primoridal Magic before hiding the Magic behind a wall, to the same effect.

11. People don't like playing against Hamelin for a similar reason that they don't like playing against Pandora: unless you know his playstyle inside out, it's difficult to understand what you'll be facing, and even when you do, it's not a fun play experience, since it's all about preventing your opponent from doing what he wants - or at times from doing anything.

[Omenbringer]

11) What other tricks/tips are there for playing Hamelin? What am I missing that makes him so hated to play against?

The only thing you dont have mentioned is effective Base Blocking around Hamelin and the Rat Catchers.

[ZiggyQubert]

A couple of updates and correction -

Inb4 magicpockets

1. Slaughter Rats + Voracious Rats is the Rat-Catcher's bread and butter. Rata are Slow to start with, so you get your normal 2 actions per turn, plus four zero actions for positioning/buffing, plus you get rid of any nasty effects...

if things work out for you you can actualy get 3 sets of activations from each rat (I've had turns where you get 4 or 5 activations from a single rat)

2. Nix has a trigger that allows him to summon a rat, but I've never seen it used. Killing things is much more efficient.

3. There is no way to overcome the -4Ca. If Hamelin dies and gets brought back, you can turn him into a melee beatstick: he still has a very high damage potential.

4. You can spawn a Stolen and sac it immediately, but you can only spawn one stolen a turn, so be sure to keep at least one alive to save Hamelin

5. Yep. Rats are the only ones that give Blight counters, unless you have Hamelin's avatar (which isn't out yet)

Hamelin himself also gives blight counters, I believe Nix ans rat catchers also can give blight counters

6. I myeslf prefer the Primordial Magic. It has a Mask on its cast, so it's a lot easier to cast Hamelin's spells, it's a spirit so it can float to safety, and as long as you keep it close to Hamelin or a Rat-Catcher, it'll turn into a Rat when it dies.

I mostly take the obident wretch to be the first model I sac (same cost as a rat and mor usefull for the first turn or 2)

7. Sacrificing, does not count as killing, correct. The stolen are the main targets for saccing, but in a pinch you can sac a few rats.

8. On their own, rats are no good at all. But, considering they swarm, i.e. all activate at the same time in a bubble of 4", and considering they can move into base contact with one another as a zero action, they are much faster than they seem. And when they attack collectively, they will put a lot of hurt on what they're targetting, as well as Blight counters and potential Wp debuffs.

indeed rats by themselves are kinda crappy, not necessarily bad but not awsome, get 4 or 5 of them together and they start being nasty, always having a positive flip for there attack, and doing at least 2 damage if they hit (1dg+wound from blight counter) then kill the rats with a rat catcher and have them all attack again

9. I myself haven't used Bleeding Disease much so far, but against models with a lot of wounds or who can heal themselves, it's a good way to put some damage on them. Blight counters do stay on models throughout the game.

Bleeding disease is awsome, usualy I will have a rat catcher cast it to finish off a model that rats have been attacking (it's not a spell so you can cast it into combat)

10. Inevitable truth, combined with Understand the Soulless, allows you to an opponent's strong combat model useless, since they have to attack Hamelin but can't. I've also once cast it with the Primoridal Magic before hiding the Magic behind a wall, to the same effect.

It allows you to pull a nasty combat model out of the game, first make it insignificant, then cast this on them, and presto a model that can't attack or cast targeted spells on anyone (if within 12" of hamelin)

11. People don't like playing against Hamelin for a similar reason that they don't like playing against Pandora: unless you know his playstyle inside out, it's difficult to understand what you'll be facing, and even when you do, it's not a fun play experience, since it's all about preventing your opponent from doing what he wants - or at times from doing anything.

ya, basicly hamelin plays the "your models cant do anything" game and does it well (by making them insignificant and having a crew that is hard to keep dead)

[Serigala]

If you stick to Hamelins themed crew, then while powerful, and difficult to beat he isn't dramatically overpowered or unbeatable. There are weaknesses which can be exploited once an opponent has played against Hamelin a couple of times.

What MagicPockets has shown, is that with Hamelins ability to recruit any Height 1 model and make any insignificant model significant, there are numerous ways that he can be over-powered and 'broken'.

That being said Magic and others on the UK scene have been vocal recommending changes which should tone him down, and if Wyrd do this, we can expect a powerful but not unduly overpowered crew. He will still be annoying to play against (like Pandora is annoying to play against) as he plays against the normal play mechanic, but most crews should have ways to beat him.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

3) you can if your opponent brought a Witchling.

[Finnegan]

3) you can if your opponent brought a Witchling.

You deviously clever bastard

I'll correct my view from "it's not possible" to "it should not be possible". Please rule that the -4Ca isn't an effect D:

[Trevelyan]

That being said Magic and others on the UK scene have been vocal recommending changes which should tone him down, and if Wyrd do this, we can expect a powerful but not unduly overpowered crew.

Out of curiosity, what sort of changes do people who understand Hamelin recommend?

[Ozz]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?30074-Polite-Suggestion-re-Hamelin-Errata/page2&highlight=Hamelin

That would be the most recent one I've seen with suggestions in, and good debated afterwards:)

[Omenbringer]

That threads is good however there is an older thread that contains a lot more recomendations as well (Debated pretty hard between Magicpockets, Sandwhich and myself). I'll see if I can find the link.

[Ozz]

That's the only one ive read all of, don't tend to look at Hamelin threads to hard as i just plan don't like him.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

But there is ofc likely to be plenty of others, thats just the one i know of:)

[TimeLapse]

I was thinking about this, and as a Hamelin player what if Bully was not on his card anymore, it doesn’t make ham man useless but it changes his play style from one of setting up his defense shield to him actually working with blight counters. Also would make him not auto immune to gremlin lists.

Though without his bully ability he just becomes a watered down Leveticus. Its weird how many player hate Hamelin but are just fine with Leveticus, where Hamelin makes you insignificant levy just kills you with spells that do direct wounds the ignore armor or any other defenses you may have. Where Hamelin can hit you hard for 9 damage Levy hits you with his 12 damage and uses a trigger to get it off instead of using a zero action.

Where Hamelin sacrifices a stolen and gets -4CA to come back from death where levy sacrifices a hollow waif and then the waif comes back for free the next turn. The stolen have a health of 1 where the waifs are harder to kill have a huge WP.

Card drawing, Hamelin’s card drawing is controlled by his opponent, levy kills himself each trun and gets a new hand along with his own card drawing skills and rusty aylce.

So it is less Hamelin and more his support models I think that make him a threat though levy has a larger pool to choose from and may make more diverse list.

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 PM ----------

Also Hamelin does have another big power he is the only master the can prevent your opponets models from counting towards Victory points, If you replaced understanding the souless and bully away and replaced them with blight focused skills that would make him more fluffy and intresting to play.

[Omenbringer]

Its weird how many player hate Hamelin but are just fine with Leveticus, where Hamelin makes you insignificant levy just kills you with spells that do direct wounds the ignore armor or any other defenses you may have. Where Hamelin can hit you hard for 9 damage Levy hits you with his 12 damage and uses a trigger to get it off instead of using a zero action.

Leveticus also has to keep his survival mechanisms (the Hollow Waifs) relatively close to him and they dont do much with or without him on the board. The Stolen provide Hamelin much more survivability (since he can hide them anywhere on the table and still work) and a pretty nice beneift to the rest of the crew whether or not Hamelin in on the table. Leveticus has to have a Corpse counter and cast a spell in order to bring out the second Waif where as Hamelin just says hey its there (and Leveticus is limited to only the 2 Hollow Waifs, where as Hamelin can pump oout 1 per turn increasing his survivability with each and every one)). Pretty much all of what Leveticus does will make him easier to kill (and no he doesn't want to die every turn, especially if he is not ready for it). And of course Leveticus doesn't have near the synergy with his crews as Hamelin does (Vanilla or Grow lists being the most glaring examples).

[Fetid Strumpet]

And, as I was discussing in the thread with Magic Pockets, from my perspective things which just kill you, as long as they aren't regarded as overpowered, are far easier for a player to accept than things which don't kill but make you feel useless.

Coming into the game there is a certain expectation that your models will kill and be killed in return. I don't think anyone who plays Malifaux, or any miniatures war game really, would ever expect to come into the game and never lose a model. What no one likes is to have a model that they can't control, and that doesn't get to do anything effective. I'd have to say this is one of the reasons Hamelin is as hated as he is. I don't personally know how hard he is to defeat as I've played him very little, but from what it seems like Hamelin makes your melee monsters Insignificant, which prevents them from doing anything to Hamelin, and killing almost anything else in the crew feels Futile. Kill a Rat, look another. Kill a Ratcatcher, if you can, look another. Kill a Stolen, look another. Attempt to kill Nix, look he just healed. That feeling of nothing you do matters is, in my opinion, worse for most players than if Hamelin's mechanic's just killed the models, especially as abilities that just kill are somewhat easier to balance than abilities which offer control.

I remember when Magic first came out and the mono blue decks were being constructed. Now true they did have some of the best cards in the game over the other colors, and certainly they weren't unbeatable, but I remember how much people, even people who beat them, hated playing against them because it always felt like nothing you did mattered. You cast a spell, look it's countered. You bring out a big creature, look it's mine now, oh and I now have another via doppleganger. I think this is the case with Hamelin. Irrespective of his balance, which I can't comment on, this seems to be the issue.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I agree completely- rules which limit players upset them.

For instance, you can have two abilities, one which lowers an enemy stat, the other which raises the corresponding friendly stat (for instance, defense and accuracy, respectively). Even if the spells were effectively identical in application, I would bet money that people would be more annoyed with the one that lowers, rather than the one that raises.

[Omenbringer]

I agree with both of the sentiments above, you dont play Malifaux against Hamelin you play against Hamelin (hoping to some how eek out a victory).

[Trevelyan]

I had a read through that previous thread, stopped and thought about it, decided that I must have misinterpreted what people were saying, went back to re-read it and came away no less confused than the first time. As regards Bully, is there genuinely an argument that having a model on the table which can't target Hamelin or achieve objectives but can otherwise contribute to the game (by targetting other models and providing more activations, for example) is more frustrating than simply removing the model entirely? I can see how having a limited model is frustrating for some players, but is it actually any more frustrating than seeing your crew whittled down to fewer and fewer models with no more chance of achieving anything?

EDIT: I was just chatting to a few guys about this, and one of them started fuming at the mere suggestion of a master who could render targets insignificant, making an immediate leap to the M:tG blue deck analogy. The other guy didn't seem to care in the slightest and thought it would make for an interesting challenge in play. Clearly there are some large differences in perspective involved, but is that grounds for change in itself?

If the other problem with Bully is the application to short crews, what would be the objection to having it work only against insignificant models (i.e. remove the Ht 1 part)?

From my position as a new Malifaux player (with some experience of other games) it seems that the biggest problem in the standard crew is the ability to chain multiple activations of rats together. Voracious Rats seems both thematic in itself and somewhat necessary given how weak the rats are, it's the ability to game the system and get multiple uses (three or four rather than just two, which seems like the original intent) out of one set that seems to cause problems.

Out of curiosity, what other models does Hamelin work with beyond the rats, rat catchers, stolen and nix, that are particularly problematic?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Trevelyan

[Adanedhel]

Terror tots that kill Rats (that come back anyway) for Blood Counters, Night Terrorsas objective grabbers, and I can't shake off the feeling that Sorrows have some abusably tricks when they get significant

[Omenbringer]

I can see how having a limited model is frustrating for some players, but is it actually any more frustrating than seeing your crew whittled down to fewer and fewer models with no more chance of achieving anything?

A decent Hamelin list will do both of these rather well and leave you with nothing to really counter it.

From my position as a new Malifaux player (with some experience of other games) it seems that the biggest problem in the standard crew is the ability to chain multiple activations of rats together. Voracious Rats seems both thematic in itself and somewhat necessary given how weak the rats are, it's the ability to game the system and get multiple uses (three or four rather than just two, which seems like the original intent) out of one set that seems to cause problems.

Out of curiosity, what other models does Hamelin work with beyond the rats, rat catchers, stolen and nix, that are particularly problematic?

Terror Tots, Hamelin and a single rat can turn the little buggers into Young and Mature Nephlim at a surprising rate (Better than either Lilith or Nekima). As an extreme example (read as "for the sake of showing potential under ideal circumstances" not reality) take the list below with 8 Terror Tots;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued

--

4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  

In the first turn of the game, Hamelin and the Rat could potentially (with the right cards) turn this into;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued

--

4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  

Or the equivalent of 18 SS worth of free models (and each would have a Blood Counter on it).

Turn 2 he can turn that into;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued

--

4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  
• Mature Nephilim
  [10ss]
  
  
• Mature Nephilim
  [10ss]
  
  

Or another 14 Points of free models. And every time you kill a mature nephlim there is a Young Nephlim waiting to Mature and replace it (on a 9+ of any suit).

This is an extreme example and would definately be card and luck intensive (the Terror Tots need a 9+ :masks to pull off Grow, requiring all 5 high :masks & the Red Joker) but show cases the potential.

Realistically the growth would be much slower than this, however there is an 11% chance of hitting a card (with cheating) that will allow you to succesfully cast Grow, increasing to 38% of successfully casting Mature with a Young Nephlim.

The worst part of this is that it takes no effort from Hamelin other than the Rat being within 6" of him.

[Q'iq'el]

This is an extreme example and would definately be card and luck intensive (the Terror Tots need a 9+ :masks to pull off Grow, requiring all 5 high :masks & the Red Joker) but show cases the potential.

Realistically the growth would be much slower than this, however there is an 11% chance of hitting a card (with cheating) that will allow you to succesfully cast Grow, increasing to 38% of successfully casting Mature with a Young Nephlim.

The worst part of this is that it takes no effort from Hamelin other than the Rat being within 6" of him.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. "A potential" for realisation of which there is almost no chance whatsoever is not a potential, but a spin. Consider, you have only 6 :masks (9+ and the Red Joker) that would allow for growth and you simply have no chance to pull it out. At least not in the first turn.

Even if you could, you spend your entire hand and 6AP on something which does nothing to further your objectives (unless it's Slaughter). Terror Tots are better objective grabbers than Young Nephilim, so why would you do that in the first place?

Finally, I'm sure more "classic" Hamelin builds offer more synergy and are quite more powerful than this gimmick, so I think quoting it is somewhat disingenuous. Sounds a bit an attempt to awe the forums with Hamelin's alleged synergies, while lightly dismissing the fact the plan is simply unworkable in an actual game.

And as a more general comment to some arguments in this thread:

While the design goals and intentions may change, we've always been told you are supposed to choose the right master for the Strategy - yours and the opponent's. This and the faction are the only things you know when you choose your master, but that gives you an informed guess. Indeed, because of this faction vs. faction balance it is quite fair to say you are never supposed to field Collodi or Gremlins against Outcasts. There are other such obvious situations in other factions as well, depending on the Strategies both sides have to complete. Bring your master B or C.

It's been said before, but Hiring process in Malifaux is not something you do at home or on the Forums. It is integral part of the game you play and a strategically the step even more important than Deployment. It is very easy to say the players would have more chances against the Dreamer or Hamelin if they knew beforehand they are going to face these crews... but what chances would Marcus, Nicodem or Rasputina have if the opponent Hired a crew entirely optimized to for dealing with Beasts, master assassination or whatever counters Tina?

Right now you have to consider Strategy, possibility of facing something very powerful, and possibility of facing something off the charts. There are no all-comers crews, but you need to bring the tools for several possibilities at once. This is how the game works. Anything which allows you to optimize your crew against one specific master will throw the game off. This is why I'm strongly against such changes.

And if you play in your local club with limited choice of masters, so that you always know what you will be playing against... well, perhaps this is the reason why you think the game is unbalanced or has OP masters in it? Perhaps you are allowing your opponents to optimize their crews in a way they shouldn't be able to. Get a second master of the same faction, build entirely different play style crew around it and surprise them every once in a while. They'll have to modify their list to deal with this uncertainty and the things will get better for both of you.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[schristofersen]

lets not forget that Hamelin is going to snatch that 9+ :masks off the top of the discard pile every chance he gets when you cheat against him due to "the void".

[Q'iq'el]

lets not forget that Hamelin is going to snatch that 9+ :masks off the top of the discard pile every chance he gets when you cheat against him due to "the void".

In turn 1?!? All 6 high :masks?!? Seriously...

[Omenbringer]

I included that list meerly as an example of potential (I certainly wouldn't count on it doing all that the first 2 turns but over the course of a game it is real likely to pump out one or two Mature Nephlim).

Terror Tots are great objective grabbers but somewhat frail and few things compare to the Mature Nephlim in terms of staying power, destructive power and objective grabbing (especially at a reduced SS cost).