Nephalumps Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I've been debating the Soulstone Miner for awhile now, and I finally decided to just go ahead and pick one up. I can definitely see where it'd be a fun and effective model, but there's a niggling question I have: How how effective is it if you don't "abuse" the current Bury mechanics? To put it another way: I originally understood how the Soulstone Miner is pretty good for it's cost. After reading up some more on how the Bury mechanics affect it's Overdrive ability (you avoid the Wds, and never lose Melee Master,) I definitely saw how it could be really good. It may sound silly, but I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop regarding Bury (i.e. an errata on how it works with abilities/effects expiring) so I don't want to get used to that rules interaction being what makes it good. Sounds silly, I know, but just bear with me. Is the Soulstone Miner still effective/worth its SS cost if you don't cheese it? I'm thinking "yes", but I'd love to hear other impressions/experiences. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I recently picked one up to run with a ramos style crew I'm running lately. I have yet to really use it offensively without the "bury" mechanic. The problem if you don't use it to maximize is this: he does have armor 2 but it only has 6 wounds and without burying it really lacks the speed to get in and wreck something. If I wasn't using it to bury go kill something it becomes my I need a ss model usually camped out somewhere by a mobile toolkit getting one a turn and having the toolkit heal it up. I usually like it to do the support get ss for the first 1-2 turns and find it is good at doing that but I probably need a second one for my lists so I can put one on offense one on support duties. I also doubt that bury will be changed due to if that mechanic is changed dreamer as a whole would need a huge overhaul cause not having the way it presently is would cripple that crew from being top tier to laughable at best. I also don't think in the arcanists case it would really upsetr anything you would normally have what 2 maybe 3 models doing it and you don't have the mobility to drop them all off at once to unload on thing. If you play them with the bury/unbury stuff they normally go down to 4 wounds with the 1ap melee master before burying so you only have 3 ap when you pop up to gib something with a damage spread of 2/3/4 with 3 ap to stike stuff with saving the last general ap to rebury and start it over again. Thats my 2 cents personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 So first off, I personally think an errata for the Bury mechanic is imminent too. There are progressively more and more potential issues with Bury becoming apparent. Not just the Dreamer's Terrifying bomb and Soulstone Miners Overdrive, but basically any positive effect on a model who can be buried can be potentially abused. I think all it needs is something like a line stating that end of activation and end of turn effects are resolved when a model is buried. I don't think that'd nerf the dreamer too badly (it just neutralises his ability to prime nightmares with defensive stance/terrifying before burying them, which is arguably needed), and as far as I can see there'd be no serious issues arising from such a rule (...yet). Regarding the Soulstone Miner, I think without the bury abuse it goes from "Amazing" to "Pretty Good". You don't get the permanent Overdrive, the Reactivate trick or Defensive Stance, but it's still a model that's untouchable until you decide to pull it out of the ground. He's great at targetting isolated models and while he's not that tough, your opponent still only gets one activation (if that) to try and kill it before it buries itself again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 With effects not resolving its the best 6ss Arcanist minion, with effects resolving it sucks for 6ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 But with that change, they can change the overdrive to still work as it does, then it can get buffs from other models that go away, but when it buffs its self it stays, it becomes less good but still work the Stones i would think? Always a way to work both sides, does require more work though to sort it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Magicpockets - Could you explain why you think the Soulstone Miner is crap without the bury mechanic tricks? I'm curious to hear more from the other side of this discussion. Ozz - Overdrive is the main reason it can abuse the bury mechanic so well, and in fact I feel it's the main reason the Soulstone Miner needs a change to the bury mechanic. Instead of paying 1SS and 2 wounds to get melee master for a turn, it pays 1 soulstone and maybe two wounds (near the end of the game) to get melee master for the rest of the game. That's an incredibly strong ability for any model, let alone one that can bury itself each turn after unleashing it's four attacks to kill a model and possibly collect yet another soulstone! Changing the bury mechanic to prevent continuous defensive stance/overdrive would be a hit for the soulstone miner, but I seriously doubt it would make it unplayable. As I said above, I feel that for a model that can become untouchable any time it wants, will only give enemy models one activation to attack it and can claim a soulstone after killing a model, 6SS is a bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I also doubt that bury will be changed due to if that mechanic is changed dreamer as a whole would need a huge overhaul cause not having the way it presently is would cripple that crew from being top tier to laughable at best. "to laughable at best"?? Ummm... wow. You really think that priming the Nightmares with Terrifying and Defensive Stance is utterly needed for the Dreamer crew to be even semi-competitive and removing this would make it the worst crew in the game? I... disagree with this view point you are expressing. Rather vehemently in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) +1 Although I'm not sure the bury mechanic is really a problem, changing it isn't going to take The Dreamer down that far. Back to the topic. As with a lot of the Arcanist models it's just a little too balanced. It has to burn a stone and take Wd to gain Melee Master and if it takes too many wounds it becomes insignificant, and is insignificant when it unburies. It's a good 6ss model as it is, losing the bury tricks it would probably be one or two stones overpriced. Edited February 3, 2012 by mythicFOX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeNinja Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I have to agree that changing the bury mechanic wouldn't really do anything super drastic to the Dreamer's crew. most of the Dreamer players I play have tried these tactics (to be honest that is 2 players), and it gives them options, but for the most part they never use those options anymore. its typically the sling-shot manuver that they love. I can see that right now running this model with other models capable of healing could be very useful to bump it back up on its Wds. Also didn't they just recently update the bury mechanic a few months ago or am I just imagining it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsComedian Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I think it's still very strong without the current mechanics. The ability to bury and unbury itself gives it a big threat range, and its ability to pop up and unleash multiple attacks and rebury is huge. It's risky since he must win that initiative or be torn to pieces, but he's still a solid option. With Hoffman or Ramos who can heal him after overdrive, he is very strong if they changed the bury mechanics. And yes, I think they need to be changed as well to have effects expire. It really make no sense for them not to, especially on Soulstone Miner, who doesn't actually leave this plane of existence, or whatever the fluff is for the nightmares coming in and out. Under the ground you are phased out of existence too? And if you get into the Hoffman-Miner tricks, things can get even more silly with how many abilities he can stack on himself due to the non-expiring thing. They have done a good job patching broken units and mechanics in this game, I'm surprised this one has lasted so long without a fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebonstar Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 As much as I love my 2 SSMiners I also hope they fix the bury mechanic. I have run them without abusing the overdrive and they seem like "okay" minions, they just wouldn't be the "go to" minions for arcanists anymore. But if you think about it- right now they are in that class of Book 2 minions like stitched that are just incredible value and good in any of their faction lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 The thing with dreamer is most models that they take are glass cannon. Except for the twins but my main problem with them is that they are rare 2 and not rare 1. The biggest reason I don't worry about dreamer as much as I use too is I have played enough games against him to know that the single most important thing against him is to focus down daydreams. So he can't do the 30 inch threat with 2 swings. Granted the two main crews I play in tournaments (perdita with a mix of guild but always 2 austringers, and colette) might be why I don't get as scared as most due to options that let me aggressively go after them. I'm also not saying that it is a easy matchup but alot of people don't understand how to place their dudes/chicks against the dreamer and gift wrap victories for the dreamer player for them from the get go before turn one even starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 The soulstone miner and bury, with bury in its current form SS miner is a top flight minion. The miner adds a huge punch to crews that can take him in a very cost efficient bundle under the current mechanic. Althought I do see a change coming for bury, do I think its needed yes and no, will it underpower the SS miner, no but it does take it in book from one of the most efficient mini's archanists can take to less desireable but not worthless. But I'd likely stop bringing it with marcus and run it more with Ramos as being able to heal it would be vital if you weren't able to keep the melee master. Personally if they change bury I'd like to see Melee master (2) just be stock standard on this mini. if not and bury mechanic changes it needs to drop a SS in hiring cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Magicpockets - Could you explain why you think the Soulstone Miner is crap without the bury mechanic tricks? I'm curious to hear more from the other side of this discussion. +1 It's a good 6ss model as it is, losing the bury tricks it would probably be one or two stones overpriced. I agree with James, for 6ss without the bury/effects thing I think it would be over priced compared to other minions in the game. It's just funny that the SS Miner was seen as a poor minion for 6ss by the majority, then after I posted how to "break" him with burying and got it all confirmed as legit by RMs he has become the "go to minion" for Arcanists, and people now feel he is OP and needs Cuddling. Maybe I should keep my ideas just for tournaments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsComedian Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Yep, it's obviously all you controlling the Malifaux metagame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I just don't get how many people whine about arcanists not getting a lot of bang for their buck and then they finally get a model that "might be a point too inexpensive" and they willingly try to say it needs to be cuddled. Some people truly amaze me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Yep, it's obviously all you controlling the Malifaux metagame. Jeez, whats your problem? If you search you'll see how this all came up and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I think this is the thread in which you are refering to... http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?26637-Going-to-start-a-Leveticus-Crew/page4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastDinosaur Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Jeez, whats your problem? If you search you'll see how this all came up and why. You don't see how arrogant it is to make a statement like "I'm the sole reason anyone ever thought of this"? *baffled* Also here's a quick search for you: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20650 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?26662 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?27081 Clearly we see how you were the one to bring up the topic in the first place, or wait.. No, you were 7 months late.. What a shame.. Puts things in perspective doesn't it? Anyway.. Here's one more soul wishing for a revamp of the bury mechanics, not that I have a problem with them as such, it'd just feel more right to me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) You don't see how arrogant it is to make a statement like "I'm the sole reason anyone ever thought of this"? *baffled* Also here's a quick search for you: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20650 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?26662 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?27081 Clearly we see how you were the one to bring up the topic in the first place, or wait.. No, you were 7 months late.. What a shame.. Puts things in perspective doesn't it? Am I claiming to be the "sole reason anyone ever thought of this"? Am I f*ck. The burying idea and keeping effects is ages old and it was actually TwistedMetal who gave me the idea (see his post above) in the Levi thread we were working on. But if you actually READ those threads you've posted you'll see how contentious it was with how it worked with the SS Miner in full (and Bette at the same time in my Levi related threads) and I got it all worked out and confirmed by the powers that be which then led to various people adopting it as the defacto way to play SS Miners. That's all I meant, and it was only in my usual graceful sarcastic way anyways - jeezus. Chances are if that whole debate hadn't been resolved people wouldn't be having this conversation now (and wait until I'm finished with Bette). So excuse me for taking a little credit for something positive in the community, it's a better contribution to the forums than *baffled* and quoting the threads the person you're trying to troll is actually talking about - so why don't you sit down and put that "in perspective". Edited February 4, 2012 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joooohan Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Magicpockets how dare you take credit for helping this community. You know nothing of Malifaux, or how to say something sarcastic and get away with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastDinosaur Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Please, I'm not trying to neglect your contributions to our community in any way, shape or form and I appreciate your presence among us. I merely had the same 'problem' with your initial remark as I believe the SportsComedian had, and as such answered your question on his behalf. It might simply be a matter of cultural differences, but where I'm from boasting (not a native speaker, so may not be the most fitting term) is considered both rude and arrogant, be it tongue in cheek or not. The thing is: Other prominent members of our forum don't go bragging about how they changed the game single-handedly or what they did to improve it, help new players through in-depth tactica, discover loop-holes or whatever. [...] you'll see how contentious it was with how it worked with the SS Miner in full (and Bette at the same time in my Levi related threads) and I got it all worked out and confirmed by the powers that be which then led to various people adopting it as the defacto way to play SS Miners. That's all I meant, and it was only in my usual graceful sarcastic way anyways - jeezus.[...] (emphasis mine) This again is a prime example of the 'boasting' I was just talking about. Now, I realize that I might've been way too blunt in my previous answer, and my apologies to you for that, but I hope you can understand my 'perspective' on this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsComedian Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Yeah, I was just teasing cause it sounded a little pompous. :-) I've never read any previous threads on the SS miner, I always thought it was a very useful unit. Sorry for bluntness as well. But good on ya for finding out these here bury exploits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 The thing with dreamer is most models that they take are glass cannon. Except for the twins but my main problem with them is that they are rare 2 and not rare 1. The biggest reason I don't worry about dreamer as much as I use too is I have played enough games against him to know that the single most important thing against him is to focus down daydreams. So he can't do the 30 inch threat with 2 swings. Granted the two main crews I play in tournaments (perdita with a mix of guild but always 2 austringers, and colette) might be why I don't get as scared as most due to options that let me aggressively go after them. I'm also not saying that it is a easy matchup but alot of people don't understand how to place their dudes/chicks against the dreamer and gift wrap victories for the dreamer player for them from the get go before turn one even starts. So, taking all this into account, you honestly believe that removing the priming shenanigans from the Dreamer crew would make it an utterly laughable crew at best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 stuff more stuff If you go back and re-read it you might notice the point I was making wasn't how awesome I am (everyone already knows that) but how a model which was written off as a waste of 6ss then became a "must include" and is now being pinned as over powered. I think the problem is sarcasm doesn't come across well on here, and if you're not British (yes, I'm a racist too apparently) you'll miss a lot of it. But you should never feel bad about "taking credit" for something, if you're going "god you're all idiots and if it wasn't for me you wouldn't have a clue" that's being a d*ck, but saying "I came up with that idea" or "I sorted that lot out" is fair enough me thinks. So calling me out on saying "I got it worked out and confirmed" as a matter of fact is a bit harsh, especially as it was only in answer as to why I'd said something you'd criticised in an earlier post. But hum ho. Quite a massive thread derailment though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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