Thoughts on a Seamus change

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hey,

After some of the discussions going on in Calmdown's Resser thread I began thinking about Seamus a little more than I have been in the past. Looking at him solely in the context of book one models I think I can see why he was designed the way he was, but given the way the game has evolved over time I was wondering on some of his abilities, and should Wyrd ever think about redesign what could be tweaked without breaking anything.

One thing that stood out to me was his raising ability Arise My Sweet. Looking at the power level of other masters in the game, I began to wonder if just giving Seamus the ability to summon any belle in the game and leaving everything else on him exactly the same would be a possible "fix" for him, and wondered what others thought's on this issue might be. I know that means he could summon Molly and Sybelle, but given that McMorning can summon a Rogue Necromancy using only the Chihuahua on the first turn I was wondering if that would be so terribly game breaking.

Thoughts?

[ukrocky]

Summoning Molly would be game breaking...

[Fetid Strumpet]

More than summoning a Rogue Necromancy? I'm honestly just interested, is Molly that game breaking?

[Thechosenone]

Wouldn't just summoning any non-unique belle be fine?

Is Seamus that bad? I play against him on a regular basis and he does pretty well. His gun is gross and his healing ability after killing is good. He's a fighty master. If anything, giving him more attacks in combat or giving him ruthless or wicked maybe.

I think some kind of action allowing him to push into base contact with a model that failed a moral duel would be thematic too.

[ukrocky]

A rogue necromancy is easy to kill, and most people have tools to get rid of him and get rid of the corpse counters when he dies.

Molly isn't easy to kill...

[Rathnard]

1. Seamus summons Molly.

2. Molly casts Philosophy of Uncertainty on target model, sacrificing herself to kill that model.

3. Seamus uses the corpse counter from the enemy model to summon Molly again...

I see a problem.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Comparing a ss user to a non ss user is not fair. Rogue is barely scary. I think as miner has more threat than rogue.

Belles are one of the best models in the game, not see an issue with his summon ability. He really isn't a summoners. Not to mention in a faction not really know for ranged guns he has of the best in the game.

Seamus is not the beat resser but he does fairly good.

A boost might be in order but that would be broken to summon a henchperson.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would debate his having the best gun in the game. His Cb is Average and his range is terrible. True it does have the highest base dmg, but many others equal or come very close to it with their triggers. Plus he can only fire it once a round.

I'll admit I did overlook Philosophy of Uncertainty as I think it's a rather bad ability, especially as it can't kill leaders anymore, but even then...

Even if we assume a chain of Molly kill sacrifice death, for what it takes resource and luck wise to get it to work... I' don't know it doesn't sound like a winning strat to even attempt to me, but maybe I'm just not a skilled enough player and don't see the true way to abuse it.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[ravenborne]

Non-Unique Belle would be good.

Changes I would like to see: I feel he has a few too many 0 actions, especially for a fast model. I would rather see No Escape be a (1) action, so it could be more synergetic with Womanizer (No Escape, activate Belle to lure).

[rancor709]

Seamus being able to summon molly totally broken. He should be able to summon sybelle no question. Even if she get "More to love rule" Must sacrfice two corpse counters to summon sybelle. I think the best potential would be to move No escape to 1 action as raven suggested. Then womanizer No escape could be brutal failing that make him instinticual. for that +1 zero action.

[Cornelious1424]

If Seamus could summon Molly it would be unfair...but I'm for it!!!

Wouldn't just summoning any non-unique belle be fine?

Is Seamus that bad? I play against him on a regular basis and he does pretty well. His gun is gross and his healing ability after killing is good. He's a fighty master. If anything, giving him more attacks in combat or giving him ruthless or wicked maybe.

I think some kind of action allowing him to push into base contact with a model that failed a moral duel would be thematic too.

1) He already can summon non-unique belles. Dead Doxy can be summoned by Seamus due to it's Part of the Harem rule.

2) He is sort of a combat master. With Cb5 on his Bag of Tricks he isn't really a murderer (well, he is but not in a game sense). Slit Jugular is awesome, but requires a high enough suit to make sure you get it off...this goes back to him only being Cb5. He can hold his own, but I wouldn't race him into the think of combat and expect results every time. His Gun is decent. Low range, an average Cb and the limit of 1 ap a turn make it mediocre. He has better uses for his ap and soul stones than his big bang.

3) This would be awesome. No Escape is nice, but you need synergy with belles/moral duels to really get use out of it. Trail of Fear in most cases is a better use of a 0 action.

I've played enough games with Seamus now, that for me his best ability, hands down is Undead Psychosis. A spell that forces enemy models to spend AP moving away from your undead (and sometimes their own!). It can target multiple models per cast, and can be cast multiple times in a turn. You can keep Seamus in melee without fear of being hit back, given you have him surrounded by undead models (not too hard to be honest). It also allows you to get things done in a turn, like grab objectives/push the enemy away from theirs. This can also be a nice way to proc No Escape. He needs to be in the thick of things, this spell allows him to be in control of the situation.

[Fetid Strumpet]

But why would it be totally broken in the current environment? Where Masters like Chompy can cross the board, kill a model, drop off his whole crew, and retreat to his deployment zone in one action. Or Hamelin, who as Magicpockets has demonstrated, can achieve a 30ss cache by the third turn of the game. Or Colette who on average can just outright remove from the game a model with about a 50/50 chance of success.

These instances are regularly, and true not by everyone, held up to be perfectly fine examples and totally within acceptable parameters, but summoning Molly would break the game?

Even if we assumed Rathnard's concern about spam casting Philosophy of Uncertainty as a possibility of abuse let's look at what that would require.

#1 a corpse counter near Seamus. Easy to do NP.

#2 a 10+ of Crows for the Summon. More difficult but lets assume you spend a stone to reliably make it work.

#3 Molly now Pops up within 6" of Seamus, and philosophy of uncertainty is a 4" range spell, so an enemy you want to kill will need to be within 10" of Seamus.

#4 Molly now goes and cast Philosophy of Uncertainty, it is a cast of 15 needing double crows so Molly is going to need an 8+ of crows to make it work, and you are going to HAVE to spend a SS on this because of the AR of the spell Molly HAS to sacrifice herself.

#5 Assuming it works you've killed a model, but required 2+ high crows from your hand, multiple specific actions, and careful positioning to make it work. In most cases it would have been easier to just focus shot with Seamus' gun and spent a SS on the action, in most cases it would probably be as effective.

I'm really not certain that this combo is a power combo. Especially as it already exists in the game with the Necrotic Machine. Now granted Molly needs one more corpse counter to make it work, and the Machine's cast is 3 lower, but even if Molly could resummon him with only one counter it is too card and SS intensive to really spam effectively.

Ukrocky, who is 100% a skilled player, says that it would be broken because Molly is difficult to kill. I find it fascinating you feel that being able to summon a hard to kill model who lacks any real teeth is broken in your opinion. That isn't sarcasm, just honest puzzlement. Would you mind going into that with a little more detail?

Please understand that my proposed suggestion is mainly to stir debate, I'm not actually saying this is a change that should happen, it is a possible suggestion in response to discussions had earlier where the consensus was that if balancing adjustments needed to be made lower tiered masters should be adjusted up, rathor than higher tiered masters brought down. I honestly do not see how being able to summon Molly would make Seamus more powerful than Colette, the Dreamer, Kirai, Hamelin, or Pandora. Especially as I'm advocating leaving his cache at two.

[Blog]

I'm for it. Molly is really good, and seeing her be summoned would be an awesome sight to see.

[Mawdrigen]

Don't forget as well...

The opponent would get an activation between Seamus and Molly (barring shenanigans can't remember if womanizer works on her) and Molly is slow that round.

[Calmdown]

Give him 5 stones and Cb 6.

He's fixed.

PS. She can already spam Philosophy of Uncertainty. She can summon Necro Machines to do it over and over. But since it can't kill leaders anymore and very few good lists make use of multiple expensive models, that's of questionable worth.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Calmdown

[Pierowmaniac]

Leaving the rule technicalities aside for those who have way more experience than myself, being able to summon Molly from a corpse counter just does't fit the whole story/fluff aspect of the game.

[Stonedog-7]

Leaving the rule technicalities aside for those who have way more experience than myself, being able to summon Molly from a corpse counter just does't fit the whole story/fluff aspect of the game.

This

Plus, is there any limit on a crew containing more than one henchman?

Cos if not there'd be the option to hire Von Schill & then summon Molly as you can summon in a second special force...

Upping Seamus to 4-5 Stones would be my first want to bring him up the ranks... and the 1 point extra Cb would be amazingly useful

Also liking either Instinctual or bumping one of his zeros to a (1)

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd disagree that it doesn't fit the fluff, actually I feel it fits the fluff perfectly. In pretty much every story featuring Seamus, Molly is at his side, and even when she gets killed again he take the time and effort to bring her back again. Besides which, if we are looking to enforce fluff in all aspect of the rules, then Seamus shouldn't be able to summon belles except off corpse counters dropped by female models. It is sort of odd when Santiago all of a sudden reveals that he was really Santiaga in disguise.

However I will admit I did overlook the fact that you could hire Von Schill then summon Molly, as all special forces restrictions only apply to the hiring phase. As I am not particularly fond of Von Schill's model or fluff, although his mechanics are very nice, I hadn't thought of him.

Again though, the thought experiment is based on upping Masters to be at the current level as the Dreamer, Kirai, Colette, etc...

So mechanically would being able to get both Von Schill and Molly in a crew make Seamus as good as Kirai for example, or would it make him too good. While very good, is the consensus that that power level would make seamus more powerful than Hamelin for example?

[Mike3838]

I don't think Seamus himself should be balanced around the "can he"/"can't he" of his crew being able to include two more leaders/henchmen. Shouldn't he be balanced on his own merits?

Upping his cache is the first place to start. It's the lowest non-Outcast cache currently out there, suggesting somebody thought he was the most powerful master in Book 1? 5 sounds about right.

Upping his combat to 6... Yea another nice boost. He's not someone who really wants to be in melee, but when he is this would help him get his triggers off more reliably.

Mike

[Stonedog-7]

I'd disagree that it doesn't fit the fluff, actually I feel it fits the fluff perfectly. In pretty much every story featuring Seamus, Molly is at his side, and even when she gets killed again he take the time and effort to bring her back again. Besides which, if we are looking to enforce fluff in all aspect of the rules, then Seamus shouldn't be able to summon belles except off corpse counters dropped by female models. It is sort of odd when Santiago all of a sudden reveals that he was really Santiaga in disguise.

Aside from the possible balance of being able to sac molly for her abilities and bring her back, which as i haven't played her i won't try to get in to... perhaps allow Molly to be summoned back by "Arise my Sweet" if she was hired to start with? would that be a middle ground between fluff and practicality

Though i think Mike is right about not necessarily balancing him by his ability to summon... better to balance him by his own merits

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that that is a viable option, I was looking to explore this one option first. Although I will point out that the spam philosophy of uncertainty already exists in the game at present, as Molly can summon her totem over and over again anyway. Granted if Seamus could summon Molly this could be done for one less corpse counter, but needing 2 high crows, plus the SS you'd want to use on the casts, and the positioning that would be required I think makes this a "looks good on paper" but falls down in practice type of ability.

If his summoning wasn't upped, which I could see, I agree he needs a higher Cache. I don't think Wyrd was quite prepared for how good SS were in a competitive sense when they handed out the original Caches. I thought they were for balance reasons, as can be seen by the fact that in the original book the only two models (non-outcast) that had a cache of 2 SS were Perdita and Seamus, the only two masters which had a base ability of Fast.

I do remember reading however that fluff reasons also influenced how many SS the Master got, which is why Outcasts got so few and NB got so many. I do hope that if the game is ever tweaked for a new edition that SS Caches are one of the things they really look at as to who needs or deserves a good sized pool.

[Kadeton]

I would definitely like to see Molly have an Ability along the lines of:

Bound, Body and Soul: If this model is hired into a crew led by Seamus, friendly models casting Arise, My Sweet may discard one Corpse Counter to Summon this model.

It seems a bit ridiculous to be able to summon a Henchman for the cost of a Canine Remains and a few cards, so this way at least you're paying for her once. I think it fits the theme and the intention of the Resurrectionists very nicely as well. Something similar for Sybelle would also be appropriate.

Otherwise, I like the idea of an improved cache and Cb.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Kadeton, not disagreeing with you, but playing devil's advocate, let me ask you a question.

You find the ability to raise a model which is a rare 1, 10 SS cost model for 1 SS, which when it dies drops almost all the parts necessary to raise it again, and can have three melee attacks on its summoning to be unproblematic, but spending 2 SS to raise a 9 SS unique model with no combat teeth, and is totally ineffective against anything immune to influence problematic?

I do sort of like your idea of allowing Seamus to summon Molly if you buy her, mainly because it very much supports the fluff.

Leaving aside the Molly issue, which I will be play testing, just for fun, what are some other thoughts on how Seamus currently functions?

In the current environment, for example, many of Seamus' abilities are ineffective against the current crop of competitive models. Assuming that living models do not again become the dominate subtype in the game, would it be appropriate to relook at Seamus' living only abilities?

His - WP aura, for example, only affects living models. Living models are also the only models that are affected by his Terrifying stat, as well as his spell, The Face of Death. Assuming for a moment that at some point the game will be looked at for a new edition should some of Seamus' abilities be tweaked to affect all enemies? For example would it be fair to give Seamus' Trail of Fear the ability to affect all enemy models, and perhaps for the Face of Death to have the Anathema ability?

Again just thought experiments.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[Q'iq'el]

Not seeing how Seamus needs any help, I'm not taking the part in the general argument. I'd just like to comment on a technical problem with Kadeton's rule proposition.

Technically speaking an Ability like that isn't active when the model is not in play. And the model is not in play, when it is dead.

Being able to summon model after it died, only if it has been hired first, would actually be quite hard to pull off within standard rules.

What would be relatively easy to do is a rule that gives Seamus reactivate if she dies or a Crooligan-style escape mechanism, working only with Seamus and teleporting her close to him...

Either way, where did the entire Seamus is too weak thing suddenly popped out from? We've just had huge tactica for his avatar posted a few weeks back and people seem to agree his Avatar is quite a solid fix for many of his difficulties... is that not enough?

I'm also not convinced ability to summon Henchmen should appear in the game. I'm already a bit vexed about Molly being able to summon Mme Sybelle - but I guess this was done so that Seamus can squeeze both in his lists and still remain competitive. Molly's abilities, while being situational, still are a solid notch above regular minions' power level.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Cornelious1424]

If he had a cache of 4, he would be better. 2 is just not enough considering he needs soul stones for those much needed damage prevention flips.

Trail of Fear just needs to be all enemy models. This would go along way to putting him near top tier, IMO.

The terror engine trick was never that good to begin with. Most models pass anyway. This really isn't his only method of being effective.

I know I've posted this about a billion times but, has anyone even tried Undead Psychosis spam? Against most crews it literally shuts them down. Using the speed of the crew, and Lure, you can engage fast and stop the enemy from doing anything for several turns.