When to pick... Not Colette?

[SoulG]

In what situations is Colette not the most efficient choice for Arcanists? Where do other masters perform well?

[Ebonstar]

One of the toughest strategies for Collette can be Slaughter. Collette's crew can pick on single models with the best crews in the game, but if they need to spread around damage or take down lots of models quickly- they're not the greatest at that (though still achievable).

Also it depends on what crews you are facing. Sometimes you want to drastically reduce the living models in your crew, so you might want to go construct-heavy which is more of Ramos' game.

Additionally, battles that require the use of lots of AoE (like Hamelin or Collodi for example) isn't something the showgirls are terribly good that, with only two real forms of AoE.

My $0.02

[Dorian]

From my experience playing against her she falls short in games where you need to pack a punch. (Assuming shared)

Slaughter

Claim Jump

I also feel she is weak in reconnoiter as while shes very mobile outnumbering an opponent in multiple quarters will prove to be problematic.

One way I have seen to mitigate this is to bring kaeris with her for damage (Blowing up doves) but again my input comes only from playing against her & noting where my opponent struggled.

[CannonFodder]

anything which requires model counts, Colette, Cassandra and Duet together do soo much and hard to kill. but have a hard time trying to out number you opponent.

[Keltheos]

Anything where your play style doesn't match the manner in which she's most effective.

[megnc86]

I agree that strategies which underutilize Collette’s mobility or spread her too thin (low model count) handicap her. If I got Slaughter or Claim jump I’d consider going Rasputina. That said, you can still play Collette in strategies like Slaughter or Claim Jump and do reasonably well depending on what your opponent has. Example:

While I did not have slaughter I may has well have. I pulled Distract in a recent game against Lilith who had Turf War. The whole game was geared towards Lilith/crew entering my side of the board (corners). Collette is so fast I felt confident I could zip to the other side late in the game to deny turf war so I just set up a defensive line and made soul stones while Lilith decided which show girl would go down easiest and break my defense. There weren’t a lot of good options because Collette could jump to any of the girls and punish a model that got into range while pulling the girl backwards and out of harm’s way (and she did, almost killing Niki for her trouble before Niki got another activation.) Because I could swap the girls around so well it was like a meat grinder for the poor Nephelim. There was never a model to hit when it was their turn to act. I lost the performer (of course) and a bird in the whole fight. There were no enemies left on the board.

To top it off I’d taken Assassinate which made the other player overly cautious with Lilith and by the time she came in to help, the damage was done.

So, if I had pulled Slaughter I would have done just as well. In this specific example (if your opponent pulls a strategy that makes them come to you) I think it’s doable.

(Self admitted new(ish) player here. Third game with Collette so take my comments with a grain of salt.)

[Odin1981]

One of the toughest strategies for Collette can be Slaughter. Collette's crew can pick on single models with the best crews in the game, but if they need to spread around damage or take down lots of models quickly- they're not the greatest at that (though still achievable).

Also it depends on what crews you are facing. Sometimes you want to drastically reduce the living models in your crew, so you might want to go construct-heavy which is more of Ramos' game.

Additionally, battles that require the use of lots of AoE (like Hamelin or Collodi for example) isn't something the showgirls are terribly good that, with only two real forms of AoE.

My $0.02

Nothing against you personally but this statement which is said by quite a few people on this board I find tremendously inaccurate.

Everyone claims raspy is the queen of slaughter for arcanists. But any mobile crew with even just a average damage scale just rips her apart. Granted I understand she has the most burst damage potential but assuming equal player skill if the player against her knows to kill the ice mirror target that moves to delievary range for her spell slinging activation.

With colette she is much more akin to dreamer than most would think at least how I see her playstyle. Granted you don't move in and drop your whole crew off however with her it is more akin to sniping targets like the dreamer does also.

The biggest mistake most people from what I hear on these forums is inserting cassie or the duet into an opponents crew and keeping them their. That turns the game for the colette player into well do I win iniative next turn or do I not and lose potentially 23 points of models.

If you use stick and move tactics granted you will never kill much more than 2-3 models a turn with her. However killing 2 sometimes 3 models a turn for 2 turns and backing out of threat range of your opponent turns a very frequent unwinnable situation to your opponent having lost 50-75% of their forces.

Also the big thing that most people do not give colette on these boards is while you invest 23 points into 3 models (2 after turn one) after they both have activated they plus our master herself our the toughest models to bring down in the game. Granted the three don't have alot of hp's but for balance sake they do not need that. But when you look at their abilities (mercutial, southern charm, slow to die, in addition to them all having ss usuage) they are not slouches to bring down without a tremendous amount of resources brought down upon them.

The only faction that gives them difficulty imho would be ressers in a kill type scenario however that faction is also terrible at those type missions as well. Colette from my experiance has only 2 matchups where in my eyes her win probability would only be considered 50/50 (dreamer and hamelin) and every other matchup she just can stomp out your opposition with minimal effort (disregarding you drawing epic fail hands the ENTIRE game).

[tadaka]

I have to agree with odin. For the most part her crew is solid for any of the core missions. Yes even slaughter when well played. The only reason to take another crew is because you want to.

[Calmdown]

From a strictly competitive point of view, there is never a reason to take another crew.

However, there are plenty of times when you wont necessarily take the "standard list" of Colette/Cassy/P&M/Duet/Dove.

Both Marcus and Rasputina can be very good when played well, but Colette is just better.

This will almost certainly change when Avatar models are released, though.

[Ebonstar]

Gonna have to agree Odin, you make solid points. The only thing I would say though is that the skills you are describing may be a bit more difficult for some players to gain. Collette is a super powerful crew- no argument there, easily one of the best in the game, and extremely tough to beat in the hands of a skilled player. The biggest problems I've witnessed personally with Collette players is that we make the kinds of mistakes you point out, like getting stuck in, or failing to remove ourselves from dangerous situations. There are other crews that are a little more forgiving in these situations, but as you indicate, they are also not as efficient once player skill and experience reaches a certain level.

[ukrocky]

From a strictly competitive point of view, there is never a reason to take another crew.

I'd never use her *shrug*

[Odin1981]

Gonna have to agree Odin, you make solid points. The only thing I would say though is that the skills you are describing may be a bit more difficult for some players to gain. Collette is a super powerful crew- no argument there, easily one of the best in the game, and extremely tough to beat in the hands of a skilled player. The biggest problems I've witnessed personally with Collette players is that we make the kinds of mistakes you point out, like getting stuck in, or failing to remove ourselves from dangerous situations. There are other crews that are a little more forgiving in these situations, but as you indicate, they are also not as efficient once player skill and experience reaches a certain level.

TLDR

I understand that she can be unforgiving. However I would never consider her as a entry level master imho. The best master (screw the crew box cause it is crap imo) to learn how she would play I would link to learning at a basic level is vikkes. Granted they have a much better damage range but they operate at least to me in a similar and familiar way.

The point you make about a new person to the crew not understanding the possible combinations that she has I believe can be overcome by when reading your stat cards (very important for anyone learning a new crew I would suggest looking over the abilities of the big three of her crew for a minimum of a 1/2 hour to fully get the grasp of what might not be readily apparent) due to the game like warmachine being very combo dependant with your models.

On a side note before on the boards I have mentioned before the best thing about the duet is sublime performance (use ss being a close 2nd but when you pay 14ss for a model they need something that makes them better than most imho). The reason why I feel this is look at the duets triggers almost every trigger on the duet minus the double book remove immunities one requires a book and mask. This one (0) when you can use 3 a turn single handedly opens up the majority of combo's for the duet and cassie via her swap/move to duet makes them easy to use at least from my perspective.

The one thing that I really like about this crew is for the most part after you purchase doves, crew box, and coryphee you don't really have to purchase much else for her. Granted I'm not gonna lie I get the least out of performers but that might be from how I play the crew as a whole but to me starting with companion (mannequin) is worth the 6ss you pay to get both of them alone. The only options I have ever used/considered using otuside of the above mentioned are johan, ss miner, conivct slinger, kaeris, a couple fire gamin, and student of conflict. however I like this due to not needing alot and really only needing at most the arcane totem and angelica out of book 3.

The best advice I can give about not being stuck in to early is this. For the most part excluding a master most list have around 3-4 thing's in the metagame I play in that could be classified as hitters (my classification of a hitter is this 2/3/5 or 4 if brutal, crit, or flay as a trigger damage range or greater, attacking stat spell, cbt, wp or whatever of 6 or greater, 7 or above wounds). Until you have focused down (kill quickly) to like one hitter and the master left don't go "all in" with your models.

The biggest strength of Colette currently imho is that for the most part she is under the radar (ie has yet to win a national con level event so far). If I have the oppurtunity to make it to gencon next year of the master's I own there isn't even a question about who I would bring to throw down with at the masters event (and to the hilarious dismay off most members on these boards her I would choose Ramos as my second list/master though I would still have to pick him and a few models up). Don't get me wrong she isn't weak in the slightest I would rate her in my top 5 as either the #2 or 3 option on a power ranking scale.

On a side note I lived in Mission Viejo in OC for about 9 years in Cali, how far away do you live from there Ebonstar?

[Ebonstar]

This is good advice. Actually I haven't had the problem of getting stuck in combat myself, I just have the habit of not killing enemy models unless I find it critical to do so. That keeps me well out of trouble most of the time.

However I've seen other Collette players draw slaughter and it changes their approach in a bad way. I played against a Collette player who drew slaughter and he dropped Cassie into the teeth of my (Kirai) lines. Bad idea, as I capitalized on the mistake on took a huge option away early. I should note that this player actually has a lot of experience playing the crew also, and typically plays well.

When people think Collette they think about movement shenanigans and early scoring, sticking to strategy, etc. When slaughter becomes the strategy they feel inclined to play against the crew's strengths, and that's where the struggle is.

To your other comment I live 8 miles from Mission Viejo.

[CrazyCarl]

Performers are really powerful, but I think many Collette Players tend to forget that as the rank and file girls get overshadowed by the Duet. Try to play some games w/o it and the games are much more interesting and fun for your opponent, and more challenging for you.

[Dolomyte]

Against Neverborn 9 times out of 10 I would prefer to have Rasputina, Against every other faction for just about every strategy Colette is the best option we can field

[Dolomyte]

TLDR

Was that a joke? A humorous attempt at irony?

[Odin1981]

Not really, just some people don't have the longest attention span so for those that lack patience its just a warning to move along.

[Q'iq'el]

In what situations is Colette not the most efficient choice for Arcanists? Where do other masters perform well?

You also need to look at the other side of the table.

Any scenario that requires killing opponents, when you face tougher kind of models (Guild Elite, Undead, Freikorps etc.). This applies both to Strategies requiring master kill and minion culling.

Another thing to look at is the size of the game. People may think of Malifaux in 35SS bracket terms, but a lot of actual games is as 20 or 25SS and suddenly you have to choose between the Duet and Cassandra - your killing power drops even lower.

So if you take into consideration size of the game, type of the Encounter (terrain), the opponent on the other side and the Strategy you need to complete, there are plenty of cases where you'd rather go for more hitting power, higher survivability, better immunity to Morale Duels/Terrifying etc.

[Odin1981]

Performers are really powerful, but I think many Collette Players tend to forget that as the rank and file girls get overshadowed by the Duet. Try to play some games w/o it and the games are much more interesting and fun for your opponent, and more challenging for you.

Its not that I don't think that they are worthless its just my aggressive playstyle that I perscribe to with Colette I just can't really get the most out of them if I played her crew the way most do with just avoidance and point grab first in mind I'd probably value them more.

If you play Colette aggressive hit and move they tend to suffer due to really in a standard big 3 list with 1 of them and 1-2 doves they really our the easiest thing to kill in the list outside of doves so if I try to get them in range to cast the discard ss spell on the enemy master they get one maybe two shots at flipping a high card for their resist duel cause I generally can't support them from my hand (outside of drawing a god hand you know where your low cards our a 8 and a 9 or 10 and the rest are 11+) to make the enemy master waste ss on the resist .

At the same time however I would never not include one in the list due to the all in alpha companion chain once most non ss using minions our dealt with first. Granted I usually make one during a game anyways (usually the 8+ point minion I just don't want to deal with after turn 2 but sometimes stitched together so I don't have to deal with their reactivate slow to die crap). There are many a master I have slaughtered with it (even the def 8 bad girls though we can attack their "weak stats" lol their cast for dita specifically and wp and ca for lilith) All you need is just one swing and a hit with the duet for the minus towards duels for a plethora of blinding (for dita specifically only if I double book trigger on a second swing with her after the minus to resist trigger) , magician's duels, and breath fire.

Granted once angelika is out I will try a more objective focused list cassie 2x fire gamin, kaeris, angelika, and a performer mannie, and a dove or such maybe a student. When I'm playing in a non competitive games but if I bust the girls out in a competitive setting I like the big 3, 2 doves, perf/manne + 5ss I feel is best for me and the list I understand the most (on a side note I need to pick up a miner and try it instead of the performer and manne to see how that works out but I feel the miners will be a alice, ramos, and kaeris list more.

And to end just because it infuriated dolomyte TLDR :happypuppet1 .

Edited December 11, 2011 by Odin1981
Left out key point on blinding and dita.

[Lovemachine]

Doesnt all this really come down to the player themselves and thier play style? As we watch others play we tend to look and think about the things that we would do. Sure, being versitile is the core to being a hyper competitive player, but everyone seems to think there is a standard way to playing a certain master. Which I find is a terrible way to think. If you decide to play a crew, and you play it the same way every time, you are gonna get got. So, I would say, because there is no master that is ridiculously over powered (minus Hammy, that little bugger) you just have to play what you enjoy and what you feels fit your playstile. But the big question here is WTF is TLDR?

[Cats Laughing]

But the big question here is WTF is TLDR?

Too

Long

Didn't (Don't)

Read

Typically included at the end of a long post with a summary of the main point of the post. Apparently used at the beginning of Odin's post as a warning (the "don't read" version).

[Lovemachine]

Oooh. That makes sense. Thats kinda mean.....

[pixelante]

So I am beginning to think I should never take Colette when facing the Guild. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

[Q'iq'el]

So I am beginning to think I should never take Colette when facing the Guild. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Dependa on Strategy you (and them) need to complete.

If you have to kill them, you are quite right. But if your goal is to evade them and interact with objectives, they are less mobile than some other factions and may have problems catching up.

On a table with proper amount of terrain (=lots) their range will mean less as well, which will make the later kind of missions even easier for you.

And don't forget Colette can work quite well with several solid non-showgirl minions. Jack Daw is one, Convict Gunslinger the other and there's the new Gunsmith mini too... and the old fall-back, Joss.

Each one of those brings a solid dose of killiness to the crew and you can use Disappearing Act to move them around the board almost as quickly as you do it with the Showgirls themselves.