Dreamer Change thought

[Hatchethead]

Honestly, I think a model that allowed you to have a 3" aura that makes it impossible to unbury a model would be better--both from tactical position and from a fluff position--he'd obviously be a death martial.

The main problem is the hiring. Unless you include said model everytime your opponent announces Neverborn, there's no way to guarantee you will have it when it comes time to reveal crews. Creating new models to deal with balance issues is not a viable approach. Since you don't know the master prior to hiring, you cannot reasonably expect to offset strengths and weaknesses with specific models.

[Dracomax]

The main problem is the hiring. Unless you include said model everytime your opponent announces Neverborn, there's no way to guarantee you will have it when it comes time to reveal crews. Creating new models to deal with balance issues is not a viable approach. Since you don't know the master prior to hiring, you cannot reasonably expect to offset strengths and weaknesses with specific models.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of releasing models to "fix" other models. It makes the model really primarily only useful against the model they fix, and in the case of this game, wold mean that one faction would be able to mitigate Dreamer, but would have a significant advantage over other factions in that respect.

I play guild, so I'm all for giving that advantage to guild, but Realistically, I prefer to think of this as being a partially mitigating model, that works well with one group of guild already existing(I bet pine box would be used more, for one thing) and fits the fluff. it would also have applications beyond dreamer, and thus not be an awful, awful model.

If you are going to try and balance Dreamer by releasing new models and enabling new strategies, I think that's(releasing new models with an anti dreamer ability or two per for each faction) the way to do it. I just don't know if releasing new models is really the best way to rebalance Dreamer.

[Lucidicide]

My thought with having models that do something that disrupts the dreamer wouldn't be that that's all they do. It would be like an exorcist model except applied to the dreamer instead of Kirai. It wouldn't be a waste if you brought the model and the dreamer wasn't playing but simply by the model existing it would make the opposing player more hesitant to bring the dreamer because suddenly it become a difficult battle for him. I personally would much prefer to see something show up to make other crews equal to the dreamer than tone the dreamer down because I'm afraid of turning him useless.

I don't think fear of the Dreamer becoming useless is a good enough reason to take an approach that is more work and harder to balance.

Ultimately, the whole point of these discussions is to fix the Dreamer, not make him useless. I don't see any way these discussions could go that could wind up with the Dreamer becoming useless. Everyone is fully aware of the fact that the Dreamer needs to be toned down but not crippled. That's why the suggestions tend to be in the vein they are in: don't change how he works; change how well he does what he does.

[Lucidicide]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of releasing models to "fix" other models. It makes the model really primarily only useful against the model they fix, and in the case of this game, wold mean that one faction would be able to mitigate Dreamer, but would have a significant advantage over other factions in that respect.

I play guild, so I'm all for giving that advantage to guild, but Realistically, I prefer to think of this as being a partially mitigating model, that works well with one group of guild already existing(I bet pine box would be used more, for one thing) and fits the fluff. it would also have applications beyond dreamer, and thus not be an awful, awful model.

If you are going to try and balance Dreamer by releasing new models and enabling new strategies, I think that's(releasing new models with an anti dreamer ability or two per for each faction) the way to do it. I just don't know if releasing new models is really the best way to rebalance Dreamer.

I honestly can't imagine any scenario where releasing a new model would be a fix. First, you'd have to balance that model. Second, you'd have to make a model for each faction specifically to deal with the Dreamer. Third, you'd have to either release it out of cycle and without it being in a book OR you'd have to wait a year for Book 4.

The third point would be annoying and keep the Dreamer discussions going for another year at least. The second point would be a lot of model add that, while they may do something else, would essentially be a one trick pony. The first is nearly impossible to do, in my opinion. Making a model that hurts the Dreamer but isn't a hard counter to the Dreamer that ALSO is effective in case you aren't fighting the Dreamer (keep in mind that this effectiveness also comes into play against the Dreamer, so the more effective outside the Dreamer, the more of a "hard counter" it becomes)... and then doing so for all the Factions in a realistic way... that's rough.

I guess you could argue for a mercenary, but that has its own inherent issues with other lists. Not to mention that many players of this game like to try to be fluffy, and a single model per faction might make certain Masters, if played fluffy, still not have anything to deal with the Dreamer.

And it's true we can't balance for people who like to play fluff, but again, if we know the Dreamer is overpowered fluff or no, the ideal is to fix the Dreamer... not to fix the rest of the game TO the Dreamer.

[Ozz]

My thought with having models that do something that disrupts the dreamer wouldn't be that that's all they do. It would be like an exorcist model except applied to the dreamer instead of Kirai. It wouldn't be a waste if you brought the model and the dreamer wasn't playing but simply by the model existing it would make the opposing player more hesitant to bring the dreamer because suddenly it become a difficult battle for him. I personally would much prefer to see something show up to make other crews equal to the dreamer than tone the dreamer down because I'm afraid of turning him useless.

Nah, i figured you meant they have other uses as well, so i can see something like the two auras suggested being a good buff for some perhaps underpowered minions, but this buff only works Vs the dreamer, so would be impractical to make them set to the correct power.

But my point was that the dreamer just sends the bomb at that model turn one and carry's on for the rest of the game as normal having killed the model. So, vs the dreamer he does not need another use, its a death sentence for the model, unless the dreamer player has bad luck/bad hand.

Granted this does mean that the first attacks are going on a less significant model instead of your master/beat stick. It forces the player to make a choice, give you a little control, and remove an important model. Or remove your limited control. To me it just seems a tiresome solution to the problem for both players. Waste stones to slow the dreamer down a turn, or slight changes to the rules of the dreamer.

Or leave him as he is, i don't use any of the things that is complained about in this thread, but some of the suggested tweaks do cuddle how i play

[Dracomax]

Nah, i figured you meant they have other uses as well, so i can see something like the two auras suggested being a good buff for some perhaps underpowered minions, but this buff only works Vs the dreamer, so would be impractical to make them set to the correct power.

But my point was that the dreamer just sends the bomb at that model turn one and carry's on for the rest of the game as normal having killed the model. So, vs the dreamer he does not need another use, its a death sentence for the model, unless the dreamer player has bad luck/bad hand.

Granted this does mean that the first attacks are going on a less significant model instead of your master/beat stick. It forces the player to make a choice, give you a little control, and remove an important model. Or remove your limited control. To me it just seems a tiresome solution to the problem for both players. Waste stones to slow the dreamer down a turn, or slight changes to the rules of the dreamer.

Or leave him as he is, i don't use any of the things that is complained about in this thread, but some of the suggested tweaks do cuddle how i play

Well, make them auras of at least 4" then.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

11 pages of house rules, eh?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't favor Silver bullets at all. Silver Bullets are notoriously hard to balance appropriately and even if they do what they are intended that lead to a bad experience all round in my experience. For example, while I like the exorcist's design behind it's abilities I don't like the fact that if you own 2 of them and are playing against ANY resser that including two is almost a no brainer. Against Ressers they are worth far more than their point total would indicate and against others they are worth less than their SS cost would indicate. As much as I feel that in general the NB are ahead of the curve, and in specific the Dreamer is WAY ahead I don't think including models which are severe "DIE DIE NB!" models is the way to go.

[Dracomax]

I don't favor Silver bullets at all. Silver Bullets are notoriously hard to balance appropriately and even if they do what they are intended that lead to a bad experience all round in my experience. For example, while I like the exorcist's design behind it's abilities I don't like the fact that if you own 2 of them and are playing against ANY resser that including two is almost a no brainer. Against Ressers they are worth far more than their point total would indicate and against others they are worth less than their SS cost would indicate. As much as I feel that in general the NB are ahead of the curve, and in specific the Dreamer is WAY ahead I don't think including models which are severe "DIE DIE NB!" models is the way to go.

I honestly think that against most ressers, you are better off taking mroe death martials. The only thing Exorcist really does well that other Members of the Death martial Box set don't is give some anti spirit/anti nightmare abilities.

And that at the expense of an extremely slow model.

I agree with the silver bullet comment though. I think having one power that hits hard at a model isn't an issue. Having a model designed around going after another model is.

[Lucidicide]

Regardless of this whole "other model" thing, it's not a realistic thing to discuss in this thread. Even if it is a solution Wyrd wants, we aren't going to be designing models from the ground up here.

This thread is used to discuss Dreamer changes. Not Malifaux changes for the Dreamer :-P Maybe the Dreamer doesn't need to be changed, and that's fine. I feel like we were on a good track of looking for minor changes that aren't really nerfs but potential limiters.

I think we're better off getting away from any silver bullet type discussions.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't think designing a model to go after another specific model works either, because as pointed out earlier, you'd need to know you are facing that particular model to make it worth it's points, and according to the rules, you won't know anything but your opponent's faction when you construct your crew.

[Gollum528]

The solution to the dreamer doesn't necessaily have to be a single model either. With a lot of the masters there's a lot of a rock, paper, scissors feel to choosing them. Prior to the exorcist, if you were playing guild vs. Ressers and you thought the resser player was going to play Nicodem then you'd pick lady j. If you thought the guild player was playing lady j, you'd play Kirai. If you thought the resser player was playing Kirai you'd play Sonnia. I don't think anyone would be too bothered by the dreamer if there was a good counter to him. Most of the games I've played against him haven't been horrible and unwinnable games, they were all hard fought games that if I didn't win, I could've if I didn't make a few key mistakes. This is my main reason for thinking that the dreamer doesn't need to be changed. IMO, if wyrd created crews that could counter the dreamer but still be countered by other crews it would create a more balanced game without having to risk over Cuddling the dreamer.

[Lucidicide]

The solution to the dreamer doesn't necessaily have to be a single model either. With a lot of the masters there's a lot of a rock, paper, scissors feel to choosing them. Prior to the exorcist, if you were playing guild vs. Ressers and you thought the resser player was going to play Nicodem then you'd pick lady j. If you thought the guild player was playing lady j, you'd play Kirai. If you thought the resser player was playing Kirai you'd play Sonnia. I don't think anyone would be too bothered by the dreamer if there was a good counter to him. Most of the games I've played against him haven't been horrible and unwinnable games, they were all hard fought games that if I didn't win, I could've if I didn't make a few key mistakes. This is my main reason for thinking that the dreamer doesn't need to be changed. IMO, if wyrd created crews that could counter the dreamer but still be countered by other crews it would create a more balanced game without having to risk over nerfing the dreamer.

If you are playing against Nicodem and don't play as Lady J, you still have a good chance of winning. If you are playing Lady J but not vs Nicodem, you still have a good chance of winning.

The problem that I'm seeing from everyone talking is that the Dreamer is someone who makes it so you don't have as good of a chance of winning. The rock, scissors, paper does exist in the game, but unlike the game for which it gets its name, it is not a foregone conclusion. If the best we can do for the Dreamer is get it so that it's a fair fight if you are lucky in choosing rock when they chose scissors, it's still not balanced.

Besides, there are already some counters to the Dreamer. The whole point being that even with those counters he's quite potent, and without them it's not really a fair chance. Throwing in more rocks to the equation doesn't help if the scissors are too big.

And I can appreciate that in your games the Dreamer hasn't been a huge issue. He hasn't in my games either. But I would be hard pressed to not see an overall trend of the Dreamer being very good -- and that trend says to me that it is unlikely skill imbalance that is causing the Dreamer to be considered too strong.

[Mentat_Canis]

11 pages of house rules, eh?

I wouldn't call them house rules just thoughts on the Dreamer as a master and how if we(the gamers) had any say in models what would we do. Most people if you read through say don't change him much if at all because he is fine, everyone else is just minor tweeks. Its a fun discussion of what of the more polarizing masters.

So Sketch what do you think?

[Hatchethead]

11 pages of house rules, eh?

Ratatatatatatatat!

eeeEEEEEE-BOOM!

[Cats Laughing]

Most of the time I don't do this.. I will Into the Spirit World 18" forward of my start line.. and summon Ikiryo 12", for a total of 36" out, then Soothe Spirit myself and swirl back 12".. so that's a hit all the way across the board and a return to my half.

This requires a friendly spirit to get 18" forward of your start line and thereby telegraphs the move. I believe Kirai lacks any sort of companion tricks for this manuever (could be totally wrong here) so your opponent gets at least one activation (barring your opponent having companion) to remove that spirit and force you to start the manuever over from scratch.

This also causes 5 wounds to your 8 wound Master.

Using your 2nd (0) to do a healing flip denies you the ability to keep your Seishin alive and denies you the ability to reapply Pitiful, removing two of Kirai's defense mechanisms. (You will already have spent one (0) action on the 18" teleport)

As noted by other posters, the Ikiryo is not as dangerous as LCB.

She also doesn't drop the rest of her crew in your face, potentially blocking LOS, blocking movement with disengaging strikes and/or tying up ranged models in melee. Since her crew is also left behind you're not facing the one-two punch of LCB followed by a companion chain of Lelus/Lilitus

It seems there are a decent number of balancing factors in Kirai's long bomb yoyo.

What are the balancing factors for the Dreamer?

What balancing factors could we introduce?

(that wouldn't cuddle the Dreamer into oblivion)

[Ratty]

This requires a friendly spirit to get 18" forward of your start line and thereby telegraphs the move. I believe Kirai lacks any sort of companion tricks for this manuever (could be totally wrong here) so your opponent gets at least one activation (barring your opponent having companion) to remove that spirit and force you to start the manuever over from scratch.

You have 5 Seishin + Lost Love, so you can generally out activate the opponents crew. If you imagine you activate 5 Seishin, Lost Love, rest of your models before you actually start your attack.. You also probably won't need to push as far forward as they will be moving towards you.

This also causes 5 wounds to your 8 wound Master.

This can be mitigated, firstly you will have a free (0) action to Soothe yourself. You can also normally bounce back afterwards to Lost Love and Datsu-ba that can heal you up at the beginning of the next turn. If Ikiryo kills something you will also get a healing flip. Not to mention some tricks you can do with the Lost Love and absorb spirit.

Using your 2nd (0) to do a healing flip denies you the ability to keep your Seishin alive and denies you the ability to reapply Pitiful, removing two of Kirai's defense mechanisms. (You will already have spent one (0) action on the 18" teleport)

This is not an issue as you will most of the time have out activated the opponent and reapplying pitiful is pointless if you are activating that late in the turn. Also note you don't need LoS for a Summon so you can be very protected as long as you choose your target carefully.

As noted by other posters, the Ikiryo is not as dangerous as LCB.

I agree, Ikiryo isn't a lot of the time. Sometimes she can be very scary though especially against targets with Armor as they generally don't have as many other ways to mitigate damage.

She also doesn't drop the rest of her crew in your face, potentially blocking LOS, blocking movement with disengaging strikes and/or tying up ranged models in melee. Since her crew is also left behind you're not facing the one-two punch of LCB followed by a companion chain of Lelus/Lilitus

Yeah that is very true.

It seems there are a decent number of balancing factors in Kirai's long bomb yoyo.

What are the balancing factors for the Dreamer?

What balancing factors could we introduce?

(that wouldn't nerf the Dreamer into oblivion)

Edited October 14, 2011 by Ratty

[edonil]

I think either limiting the distance LCB can be placed at from the Daydream would help...or making it really, really risky to do the LCB cruise missile.

[Lucidicide]

What are the balancing factors for the Dreamer?

Honestly, I can't name one thing that's "hard" or "random" about pulling it off. The way to do it is pretty straightforward and spelled out. It all happens at once, so the opponent has no chance to react. Cards aren't a real issue. The Dreamer doesn't enter any real danger.

If people name something, it will probably be this whole "glass cannon" idea that Neverborn are all easy to kill. But when there is a whole crew on top of you forcing you into their fight (Terrifying, big melee rangers, and choosing what models end up next to what models), there's not very much that truly goes down that easily.

I'm not saying it's terribad or anything. I'm just saying that it's hard to point to a weakness that the Dreamer/LCB possesses. He's a two model master with more AP than most masters, who can have more totems (good totems, mind you), who doesn't need crazy cards to pull off his abilities, who can move super far, and who can be really good in combat. Oh yeah, and he's got one of the larger caches in the game.

I do think it can be fixed with minor tweaks, though, which give him some weaknesses. Card discard for extra unbury, for example. Limiting the ability to flee from combat safely, for another. Giving your opponent a chance to act, for a third. You don't need to do them all to make him better, but a little trim here and there...

[Hatchethead]

The only balancing factor is the complexity of the interactions necessary to pull it off ... but given enough time with the wiki, anyone can get the order of operations down.

[Lucidicide]

The only balancing factor is the complexity of the interactions necessary to pull it off ... but given enough time with the wiki, anyone can get the order of operations down.

Right. I have players (and know players) who spend time reading that sort of thing because regardless of Master, it's a complex game. As such, they see it's possible. They want to do the best they can, so they learn how to do the things that work best... and then that's what you'll see.

I just don't think "complexity" can be a balancing factor when there's not really a chain of events that may require some adjustment. Ressers can be complex because you might need to keep track of the high crows or the counters or how close you are to certain things, etc.

The Dreamer is complex in the sense that he has a lot of possibilities, and doing his crazy things requires you to remember a specific order. But largely, there are no external factors that will come into play in pulling off the basic form.

Making it devastating does require more skill, it's true. Which is why the Dreamer is and remains beatable, and quite frankly always will be.

Honestly, I think the best change is one that doesn't necessarily change the Dreamer in a "difficulty" way but does in a "complexity" way. Meaning we don't make there fewer cards in the deck that can pull it off, for example, but we do make pulling it off safely more of a risk.

It's why I keep advocating for the break in companion (or just remove it from Daydreams). It doesn't actually change anything about the Dreamer's function, but it does allow someone to potentially put you at risk if you try it... meaning that you have to pay attention to more factors, like say terrain.

[edonil]

I like that idea. The cruise missile I do not have a problem with in its essence. It is complicated, it does take work. But the fact that once it gets going, there's nothing stopping it...that's frustrating.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Chompy strike doesn't require any real "work" to make it succeed Edonil. It requires a significant SS supply for Chompy to attack with or to succeed in one of the low required spells required to achieve the missle (the Dreamer is tied for second largest Cache in the game with 3 other NB Masters at 5), a 6 or higher of any suit for the Daydream's cast of Frightening Dream, a 3 of Masks or higher for the Dreamers cast of Frightening Dream so he can trigger All My Friends, and a tome or second Daydream for Chompy to be put away after his strike.

So I would actually argue it does not take work, just the knowledge of how to do it as the cards required are very low, the SS cache will be high in any case, and with a Second Daydream you also strip the need to have a tome in hand or flipped on Chompy's paired attack to remove him from danger.

[Ebonstar]

Yeah...it's a little "complicated", but All My Friends makes things a lot easier.

Looking at other high move/high shenaningans crews (Collette, Kirai, Collodi, etc.) How would you rate Dreamer's complexity? How do you assess risk vs. reward? Do some of these crews have it harder AND more vulnerable, or no?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Kirai and Colette are both far more complex and require far more management of resources to make their tricks work. I will say again that overall the Dreamer is not easy button win, but he is stronger and does require less in resource management than either Colette or Kirai.

Collodi is a special case in that his tricks don't require, well, anything other than as many marionettes as you can bring.

With Kirai you want, and need to manage every suit in the game. Rams for her to heal with Datsue-ba and Lost Love, Masks for her and Datsue-ba's movement tricks, Crows for her Ikiryo and Don't Blink Triggers on Evolve Spirit as well as for casts and Triggers on most of her minions, and Tomes for her Onryo and Shikome's triggers. You are also managing her Seishin, as they are what keeps her alive, provides the material for better spirits, and are her mobility. You are also managing her wounds as all her summoning deals wounds to her and summoning the Ikiryo with the Don't Blink trigger drains over half her wounds. Now certainly she has ways to manage her health lose, but that's the thing, she needs to spend her or her minions actions to do this, so it doesn't only cost Kirai the actions it takes to actually summon, but also the other actions to recover from doing so.

Colette I only have some direct experience with, but she manages a balance between hand size and SS the entire game. As most of her power models can gain the ability to use SS and just about every ability on Colette requires the use of one, and her entire survivability is entirely based on it, the decision of when to use a SS with Colette is a much more complex and involved decision than with other masters. She also has a much smaller pool of models that offer direct synergy with her, and if she brings the "power" models she is going to have an even smaller crew than a typical Dreamer crew comprised of elite models.

I don't think it is the best way to go about "fixing" the Dreamer, but if achieving his tricks required a level of resource management similar to Colette or Kirai I might be more comfortable with him.

That isn't to say that either of them couldn't stand some work though. For a faction balanced game Masters that are solid at every strategy and weak at very very few create problems because why do you need the other masters of your faction at that point?