Avatar Concerns

[Cornelious1424]

As I could not be at gencon this year, due to work and money issues, I find my self like most, observing through the internet. It is now day 3 and we have heard a lot about the avatars and how they manifest, what some of them do and all that jazz. Through this I find my self excited to see how they play out, yet also a little concerned.

One of my concerns with the Avatars is already starting to become what seems to be a reality. I hope that once a master manifests into it's avatar, it doesn't become the primary kill focus of the game. Malifaux is a game based on objectives, rather than kill mission. I don't want to be trying to focus on treasure hunt, my opponent manifests his masters avatar, I now have to alter my tactics just to take down the master because it's so awesome/powerful that it will prevent me from completing my strategy.

So, can someone at Gencon, who has either seen them played or have played with them ease my mind? I'm not asking for much, just a simple yes or no. Are they that game breaking/altering? Thanks

[Orboros]

As I could not be at gencon this year, due to work and money issues, I find my self like most, observing through the internet. It is now day 3 and we have heard a lot about the avatars and how they manifest, what some of them do and all that jazz. Through this I find my self excited to see how they play out, yet also a little concerned.

One of my concerns with the Avatars is already starting to become what seems to be a reality. I hope that once a master manifests into it's avatar, it doesn't become the primary kill focus of the game. Malifaux is a game based on objectives, rather than kill mission. I don't want to be trying to focus on treasure hunt, my opponent manifests his masters avatar, I now have to alter my tactics just to take down the master because it's so awesome/powerful that it will prevent me from completing my strategy.

So, can someone at Gencon, who has either seen them played or have played with them ease my mind? I'm not asking for much, just a simple yes or no. Are they that game breaking/altering? Thanks

I think for answering that question you have to observe every single avatar in action, multiple times.

But i'm certain that there will be masters that you will have to focus to ensure your victory..

[keiichiro]

I'm with Orby there on the whole "gotta see them more than once"...

Going off Sonnia's card pic that's been around the interwebs, getting her out is easily a turn 3 deal... as long as you don't mind using up all but her casting expert action.

As to instant target? Aren't most masters wearing the bullseye to begin with? Wyrd folk did say that it wasn't a power-piece, but a twist to the play style. Granted, I'm not thrilled with spending $40 on a piece that is only in play for half a game at a time, if it even manifests... But gotta have faith that Wyrd wouldn't completely wreck their baby with an innovation like this.

[Teal]

I believe Wyrd said that Avatars were more a step sideways than anything else. From what we've seen, I think that changing into your avatar form is mostly about changing your focus. Seamus goes from a ranged control piece to a melee monster. I've never played with them myself, but I'd assume that they wouldn't paint an even larger bulls-eye on themselves by manifesting. They only cost you 2 SS, and for the most part aren't that hard to manifest into, so based on that and what we've seen they don't appear to be that much more powerful.

[sephiroa]

very simple: NO,

an avatar is not overpowered, they are only slightly better at some stats, but they are still balanced, and don't forget that you have to do some things before they can manifest.

and if you are going to play a game, and let's say you have an avatar but your oponnent not,, then at least play fair and don't use an avatar,

i believe that an avatar is only slightly better, but i don't think that an avatar can take down a complete crew,,

[Hatchethead]

You don't have to use avatars. It costs 2ss to include the option in a crew. Saving yourself a couple soulstones and playing without an avatar is a viable option.

It has also been said multiple times that an avatar is not a straight up power boost. You gain some utility, you lose some utility. It won't always be ideal to manifest dependent on how an encounter progresses.

Avatars have been part of Wyrd's game plan since Book 1. I trust they won't upset the flow of the game TOO much.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Teal]

I wouldn't even say that it's good manners to leave your avatar at home if you're fighting someone without them. They're just a new unit type, and to me that's like saying I shouldn't be allowed to use Henchmen or Totems if my opponent doesn't have any.

Also the models are (besides Marcus) basically giant hunks of freakin' awesome, so that's always a plus.

[Orboros]

I wouldn't even say that it's good manners to leave your avatar at home if you're fighting someone without them. They're just a new unit type, and to me that's like saying I shouldn't be allowed to use Henchmen or Totems if my opponent doesn't have any.

Also the models are (besides Marcus) basically giant hunks of freakin' awesome, so that's always a plus.

Am i really the only one that likes the Marcus Avatar?

[Brandu]

No, there's one or two others that join you in your insanity. Not me, but there are others.

[Cornelious1424]

Am i really the only one that likes the Marcus Avatar?

I actually like it a lot. It's better and more epic than Pandora IMO.

Thanks for the feedback and quick responses guys. As of now, Wyrd has not disappointed me (rules wise). With the release of Henchmen in Rising Powers, they did not break the game in anyway. I guess I shouldn't be too worried bout the Avatars. I just don't wanna see this game lean towards the play style of kill master.

[Hatchethead]

Am i really the only one that likes the Marcus Avatar?

I'm reserving judgement until I see him up close.

Almost without fail, Wyrd miniatures I'm so-so on at first glance tend to surprise me (pleasantly) when I see them in person. Hamelin the Plagued is a good example. I was underwhelmed when he was first released and all I had to go on was the marketed image ... but once I had the mini in my hand, my opinion changed dramatically. Some strange combination of paint job, lighting and angle of photography doing minis a disservice, I suppose.

[CannibalBob]

The only thing I don't really care for about the Marcus avatar is the rock outcropping his foot is resting on. It either needs to be cut off, so that it looks like he is walking forward, or it should be replaced with a different piece of terrain that actually looks decent.

[Omenbringer]

very simple: NO,

an avatar is not overpowered, they are only slightly better at some stats, but they are still balanced, and don't forget that you have to do some things before they can manifest.

and if you are going to play a game, and let's say you have an avatar but your oponnent not,, then at least play fair and don't use an avatar,

i believe that an avatar is only slightly better, but i don't think that an avatar can take down a complete crew,,

The Avatars will not be auto win/ lose models. They are also not intended to be better or even slightly more powerful then the normal versions, most will be more refined in their focus. For the most part they have trade offs, divergent playstyles, and ocassionally favor a specific crew build. Also the 2 SS cost for the potential to manifest doesn't guarantee an appearance, you still have to meet at least 1 of the manifest requirements in order to pop out and give up some actions to do it earlier in the game. Focusing on manifesting the Avatar early generally results in forgoing Strategy and scheme completion which can cost you the game.

I'm reserving judgement until I see him up close.

Almost without fail, Wyrd miniatures I'm so-so on at first glance tend to surprise me (pleasantly) when I see them in person. Hamelin the Plagued is a good example. I was underwhelmed when he was first released and all I had to go on was the marketed image ... but once I had the mini in my hand, my opinion changed dramatically. Some strange combination of paint job, lighting and angle of photography doing minis a disservice, I suppose.

Avatar and alternate sculpt Marcus are actually pretty good looking up close, they have me reconsidering him.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Omenbringer

[mbowsher76]

I also like the model a lot!

[Q'iq'el]

Overpowered is one thing, effect on the game is another. I do share some of the OP fears.

If, for example, you need to cause 10Dg or kill 2 models in the forests to manifest an avatar, and you have that shiny new model you want to use, you are going to push for direct confrontation regardless of the objectives.

We know, of course, in Malifaux it may lose you the game quite easily, but it means the opponents will have to be prepared to face heavy pushes now. I'd also argue that multiple weak models, horde style armies, may find themselves at a slight disadvantage - even if avatar isn't overpowered, you still facilitate your opponent's strategy by bringing models that make it easier to manifest an avatar.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's all pure theory. Maybe these changes in gameplay have negligible effect on the Strategies and Schemes anyway.

[osoi]

Some crews have a good advantage over 'horde' style and elite style crews already, it will be interesting to see how people change their playstyle in relation to avatars in any case.

[Sinsation]

If' date=' for example, you need to cause 10Dg or kill 2 models in the forests to manifest an avatar, and you have that shiny new model you want to use, you are going to push for direct confrontation regardless of the objectives.[/quote']

Couldn't these have an opposite effect as well though? The threat of manifestation could be enough to cause your opponent to try and prevent those triggers, allowing you to get your objectives better. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for 2 soulstones.

[Dumb Luck]

I can see Somer crew changing drastically if they intend to get his Avatar out. Alot of the time, his gang relies heavily on the Skeeters. You're not going to take them if you intend on manifesting Peaches.

Shakes things up nicely.

[Uncle]

I can see Somer crew changing drastically if they intend to get his Avatar out. Alot of the time, his gang relies heavily on the Skeeters. You're not going to take them if you intend on manifesting Peaches.

And because of that, I don't expect to see a whole lot of Som'er's Avatar, unless it's particularly devastating. I havent' found anything about him yet.

Same goes for other Masters who are particularly reliant on their totems--Colette springs to mind, although we'll see with her (her Avatar looks very good on paper).

[Dumb Luck]

I would be suprised to see much of the Dreamer avatar around. Unless he has some way of burying/unburying, then keeping the Daydreams might be better.

As for Somer, all depends on how good he is. Skeeters are handy but if he hits like a truck ...

[Mister Tezla]

Well, in my experience, Skeeters become a prime target for other players who have seen them in action. If your playing S'omer's crew, you can utilize the skeeters while building up piggies (pig heavy list). Gremlin players should be used to sacrificing models for the sake of the game (how many "Y'all watch this" Bacon Bombs, or Kamikaze attacks from Pere have we utilized) so getting the Skeeters in quickly to do their thing, then clearing them off the board for a manifestation isn't too unreasonable, it just depends on the player's tactics.

Still waiting to hear more on his Avatar, but looking at Peaches, I can;t help but have the feeling it's going to have a slight bit of synergy with the Piggies (probably lose "Get yer Bro" for more hog specific actions). Though, I could be wrong, and it could just be S'omer on a war-pig.

[Necromorph]

As a first impression, none of the avatars seem game breaking, but some of the avatars are a bit stronger than others. Vs those tough avatars, it will be paramount to stop them getting their avatar or kill it quick....not always easy as some of the requirements to Manifest avatars are stupid easy.

What I believe balances them out a bit is that their manifest requirements often force you to play a certain way in order to meet the requirements. Therefore if you want to take a certain list / playstyle you may find it difficult to manifest an avatar if you aren't playing for the manifest reqs. Also, depending on your crew / specific master, some of the Strategies and Schemes will not synergize well with certain avatars (for example, Hamelin's avatar gets even worse at slaughter...first impression ofc, but that's what it seems like).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I also like that to have the option of manifesting your Avatar costs you 2 SS. You have to devote a portion of a very important resource to even have the option of going Avatar. And it will change how you have to play the game in order to capitalize on that investment. I won't get my book until later today when a friend gets home from the Con, but even right there many of the initial concerns I had about the Avatars have been taken care of.

[nilus]

I also like that to have the option of manifesting your Avatar costs you 2 SS. You have to devote a portion of a very important resource to even have the option of going Avatar. And it will change how you have to play the game in order to capitalize on that investment. I won't get my book until later today when a friend gets home from the Con, but even right there many of the initial concerns I had about the Avatars have been taken care of.

Right. 2 Stones might not seem like a lot but its 2 less stones to bring a model that may not manifest at all(Master could be killed before the auto manifest happens) or it could end up manifesting when you really need you plain old normal master(That is assuming you must manifest eventually and its not something you can delay).

[Uncle]

Right. 2 Stones might not seem like a lot but its 2 less stones to bring a model that may not manifest at all(Master could be killed before the auto manifest happens) or it could end up manifesting when you really need you plain old normal master(That is assuming you must manifest eventually and its not something you can delay).

From the scans we've seen, it seems pretty obvious that you may choose when you manifest, and you can delay it as long as you'd like. Perhaps the "automatic" turns would force a change, but I would doubt it.

Depending on the turn and number of triggers, manifesting can be an (All), (2), (1), (0), or (Auto). I don't think there's any way, outside of the (Auto) to force a manifest.