Is Reactivate a Talent? - Hoffman

[TalonRaven]

I'm checking on the legality of this, because I think it's a pretty darn powerful combo...

C.Hoffman has a spell called (2) Overwrite Edict...

Activate target Construct after this model's activation ends. If the target Construct has activated previously this turn, it gains Reactivate. This model's Controller controls the target during this activation After this activation, the target cannot activate again this turn

... and an action called (0) Assimilate

This model gains one Talent or Spell possessed by target Construct within 6". Effects that reference a model by name cannot by assimilated

Now, consider the scenario where Hoffman casts Overwrite Edict on a Peacekeeper, who has already activated during that turn thus gaining the ability Reactivate.

According to Rules Manual, pg 34, Action Modifiers, Reactivate is one of the four Abilities that is collectively known as Action Modifiers. On pg 12, Abilities are defined as a Talent. Therefore, Reactivate is a Talent, and Hoffman can use (0) Assimilate to gain Reactivate, allowing him to go again during that turn. Well, not immediately after, but the point is that he gets to go again.

I searched on the forums, but this thread was inconclusive on the Hoffman Assimilating Reactivate, and I felt that the main issue relies on two things:

1) Is Reactivate a Talent?

2) If a Construct "gains" a Talent, does it count as "possessing" it for purposes of Assimilate?

[demkoenig]

It costs Hoffman 2 AP per turn to assimilate Reactivate. Kirai can also gain Reactivate for 2 AP and a Seishin (which is little to no cost to her). Honestly, there is nothing OP about Hoffman gaining 3 AP, and another Construct getting 2 AP for the cost of 2 AP.

Think about other frustrating situations...

Vikkies using 1 AP to make 6 melee strikes against 6 different models...

Doppelganger giving you a negative initiative flip for the WHOLE game...

Alp Bombs...

Rasputina + Ice Mirrors...

Hoffman assimilate reactivate is just another tactic, that can be SUPEREFFECTIVE, but can also be beaten.

Tactics are meaningless without the context in which they arise. My reactivating PK can kill a bunch, but good luck accomplishing Recon with the Hoffman ball.

[HeaDHunTeRfs]

It costs Hoffman 2 AP per turn to assimilate Reactivate. Kirai can also gain Reactivate for 2 AP and a Seishin (which is little to no cost to her). Honestly, there is nothing OP about Hoffman gaining 3 AP, and another Construct getting 2 AP for the cost of 2 AP.

necromancy, sorry about that

I don't really agree with you... Hoffman can hire Joss, hence his reactivate only costs him a (0) action...

Edited September 9, 2011 by HeaDHunTeRfs

[MunkeyKungFu]

necromancy, sorry about that

I don't really agree with you... Hoffman can hire Joss, hence his reactivate only costs him a (0) action...

But you are paying 10ss for the honour though

[Headcase2]

Paid with a smile...

[Jonas Albrecht]

But you are paying 10ss for the honour though

It's worth it for the mental image of Hoff piggyback riding Joss.

[bucket_boy101]

Yah yah !

[sharpobjects]

The trade off with Hoffman gaining reactivate from Joss is that Joss has to burn 3 power counters, take 2 wounds and use his zero action overload. Under normal circumstances, Joss cannot gain 3 power token on turn 1. He gets 1 for activating and 1 for charging. I guess you could swing at one of your own models for additional tokens. If your idea was to start riding him up the board on turn 1, then charging an enemy model (hopefully you have one in LOS) is the only option. Then you end turn 1 with 2 power tokens. Or you walk twice and end turn 1 with 1 power token.

Joss is very squishy for a 10 stone model (the cost for Hoffman to hire him). He is taking 2 wounds every round to do this and if your riding him up the board, the only model you will have to heal him will be with the mobile toolkit. Unless of course there are some scrap counters on the board that Hoffman can use to heal with.

Pushing up into the fray with no armor and less than 8 wounds is going to = a dead 10 stone model fairly early on in the game. Your better off having Hoffman reactivate him with his override edict spell and allow Joss to discard power tokens for added armor or added damage.

Either way, the peacekeeper is by far and away a better partner for riding up the board. He has more wounds, provides more scrap counters when he dies, has his own armor and can move 3 times at 5 inches rather than Joss moving 2 times at 4 inches.

Also, if you are planning on going Avatar AND you want to push up the board quickly while riding a construct, casting override edict once each turn will get you into Avatar by turn 2 even if you don't kill two models with machine puppet. That is assuming your opponent doesn't have constructs of their own on the board. Then your stuck with machine puppet to get into Avatar form. There has been discussions regarding a strat that your opponent hires a construct and plays keep away.

The negatives of hiring Joss over the peacekeeper are enough to quell the possibility that the combo would OP.

Edited September 10, 2011 by sharpobjects

[Headcase2]

Who's saying anything about a turn 1 charge into the fray? It's far more efficient to simply do this on turn 2 or 3. And as far as squishy goes, a Guardian makes sure no model is really that squishy.

[Cadilon]

Was there ever a ruling on Hoffman gaining Reactivate?

[nny]

Still no ruling? And also bump...

[Naught]

I'll also add in a shameless bump. I'm interested in getting a ruling.

[Q'iq'el]

Still no ruling? And also bump...

I think this is one of the most complex rules issues that came up this year - I wouldn't expect a quick resolution, but hopefuly it is in the works.

As is the rules are confusing - some talents are just talents in some cases (fast, regenerate, reactivate, slow etc.), but both talents and effects in other cases (when they are gained as an effect of an aura, spell, pulse or another ability).

This is very confusing to players, as it means these abilities interact differently with other abilities, depending on situation. It seems their execution timing may also differ case by case (if there is a conflict with resolution of another effect with identical timing).

Multiple threads about every such talent/effect are testament to this.

So I suppose the Developers are thinking how to simplify this - should it all be degraded to effect? Or maybe abilities gained as effect should count as abilities, not effects? Either way, this will be a major change in the gameplay, not a minor one. Who knows what gets broken on the way.

[Dolomyte]

Also

[dakrulz55]

anyone else think that his avatars gonna get outa controll if he decides to kill random construct he reactivated as part of his manifestation req then gaining it for the rest of the game? i think its a little broke sauce but then again i dont see too many hoff players anywhay.

[cerealkiller195]

I always thought that reactivate would be an "effect"...

[Calmdown]

I think this is one of the most complex rules issues that came up this year - I wouldn't expect a quick resolution, but hopefuly it is in the works.

As is the rules are confusing - some talents are just talents in some cases (fast, regenerate, reactivate, slow etc.), but both talents and effects in other cases (when they are gained as an effect of an aura, spell, pulse or another ability).

This is very confusing to players, as it means these abilities interact differently with other abilities, depending on situation. It seems their execution timing may also differ case by case (if there is a conflict with resolution of another effect with identical timing).

Multiple threads about every such talent/effect are testament to this.

So I suppose the Developers are thinking how to simplify this - should it all be degraded to effect? Or maybe abilities gained as effect should count as abilities, not effects? Either way, this will be a major change in the gameplay, not a minor one. Who knows what gets broken on the way.

Its not really confusing at all.

They just need to fix the rules on fast/slow/paralyzed/reactivate so that there is a distinction between when you gain them as an effect and when you have them as a talent.

It's actually really simple if you just rewrite it properly instead of trying to apply some hacky fix/workaround which is probably what's going on now.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's actually really simple if you just rewrite it properly instead of trying to apply some hacky fix/workaround which is probably what's going on now.

Some "hacky fix/workaround"?

Nice.

[Calmdown]

Some "hacky fix/workaround"?

Nice.

You aren't the only one who writes rules, don't take it so personally. It's not an indictment, it's the reality of what happens when you try to bodge something because what you've already done isn't fit for purpose. The current reactivate/fast/etc mechanics are exactly that. You have two options, either work around it or rewrite it. Working around it is almost universally the worst option, and is almost always a bodge job when a rewrite is often the cleanest.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

You aren't the only one who writes rules, don't take it so personally. It's not an indictment, it's the reality of what happens when you try to bodge something because what you've already done isn't fit for purpose. The current reactivate/fast/etc mechanics are exactly that. You have two options, either work around it or rewrite it. Working around it is almost universally the worst option, and is almost always a bodge job when a rewrite is often the cleanest.

The reality actually is: You don't know what goes on in rules development for Malifaux. You can assume all day long, but the facts are not in your sphere of knowledge.

But to get back on topic, the situation is being looked at.

[Calmdown]

The reality actually is: You don't know what goes on in rules development for Malifaux. You can assume all day long, but the facts are not in your sphere of knowledge.

Great. Looking forward to you proving just how much my knowledge is lacking with a well-written and well thought-out ruling.

[Carse]

Bump

[Necromorph]

I know there is probably much deliberation going on about this from the RM's and such, but with Lazarus strategies popping up all over the place I'm really looking forward to an official ruling.

[bropps85]

It's been a week has anything come out in a different thread that relates to this?

[Caleb]

It's been a week has anything come out in a different thread that relates to this?

It's been 3 months now (First post: 08-02-2011, 12:15 AM ) And no, no other threads solved this mistery.

[Twisted Metal]

anyone else think that his avatars gonna get outa controll if he decides to kill random construct he reactivated as part of his manifestation req then gaining it for the rest of the game? i think its a little broke sauce but then again i dont see too many hoff players anywhay.

I dont think this would work because the "Assimilate Edict" directly states "a specific action" not talent as Hoffman's original Assimilate states. Reactivate is not an action regardless if it is gained as an effect or pre-existing on a model as a talent.