future balancing

[thetang22]

I'm curious if there will be any significant changes to balance out stats and/or costs in the future for pre-existing miniatures. I know things that NEED fixed will be addressed via errata, but I'm thinking more along the lines of balancing/cost issues that made it through testing and never got addressed...but became more public and obvious once the game went live.

One example that quickly comes to mind would be Joss and the Steamborg. The Steamborg is 'supposed' to be the big baddy of the Ramos subfaction, yet almost everyone considers Joss better in almost every way. Even if they were equally priced I think you would probably see Joss taken the majority of the time. That leaves me to believe that either the Steamborg is overpriced, or Joss is underpriced.

Will situations like this be addressed in the future for these pre-existing conditions? Or are some models just going to be left behind with the basic conception that they are inferior to another in just about every way, even though they cost more (...which is supposed to be an indication of how 'valuable' the model is in game).

This may just sound like some ranting, but I had a long drive home from work and I debated about it....then really thought....why the heck is the Steamborg more expensive than Joss if Joss really is the better miniature? And I'm sure there are probably a couple more examples of this sort of thing....just can't think of any right off hand, and the Steamborg/Joss one is very well known.

Edited October 15, 2009 by thetang22

[Monkey]

Still way to early to be complaining about unit points, Not many people are playing around with brawls so relative points for each unit are still only being seen from one side. The ice golum has had some flack for not being effective in a 25ss game but the play testers and others in the know are saying that at 35ss+ games with more people on the table the ice golum works realy well.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Monkey

[Gargathor]

Still way to early to be complaining about unit points, Not many people are playing around with brawls so relative points for each unit are still only being seen from one side. The ice golum has had some flack for not being effective in a 25ss game but the play testers and others in the know are saying that at 35ss+ games with more people on the table the ice golum works realy well.

QFT. This game is new-born. Just because 'everyone' thinks X is better than Y that doesn't make it so. At this point 'everyone' is a handful of people in your local playgroup, or maybe even a few dozen people talking on these forums. Those numbers are not adequate for making changes to models. Patience.

[thetang22]

Actually....the reason I'm saying so isn't because of small handful of people I'm watching or talking with. I'm taking in just about EVERY opinion I see on the example I mentioned, and they all seem pretty consistent across the board.

On top of that...during the testing phase of the game this was sort of an issue as well (and it was pretty heavily debated over the course of the beta), and it never got resolved any more than what is currently released...which has caused most people I've heard to say the same things now that were said in testing - the Steamborg just isn't worth the point cost when you've got somebody like Joss around a comparable point range.

Even putting all costs aside (as well as the fact that Joss is Unique) and just comparing stats and abilities, Joss is a basically a better model.....so why does he cost less? That is the issue I'm trying to bring up.

Edited October 16, 2009 by thetang22

[nerdelemental]

I think we should blame TheBugKing.

[Scorpio]

I know a life of crime has led me to this sorry fate, and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am.

[TheBugKing]

It is most likely my fault. Sigh.

The major thing that I see the 'borg bringing is the steamcloud. I've been playing quite a bit recently and taking Joss the way I usually do. In a badlands situation with very little vegetation the steamcloud is amazing.

The 'borg does also have arachnid which is very helpful as well as being a lot more survivable. In a lot of ways Joss is a glass cannon. The 'borg is much more of a brick but doesn't hit as hard.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I know a life of crime has led me to this sorry fate, and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am.

I freakin' love Repo Man!

[Haight]

It is most likely my fault. Sigh.

The major thing that I see the 'borg bringing is the steamcloud. I've been playing quite a bit recently and taking Joss the way I usually do. In a badlands situation with very little vegetation the steamcloud is amazing.

The 'borg does also have arachnid which is very helpful as well as being a lot more survivable. In a lot of ways Joss is a glass cannon. The 'borg is much more of a brick but doesn't hit as hard.

Exactly - i think people vastly underestimate the usefulness of the borg's steamcloud. It is stupid good. The borg's cloud means that, barring hunter or other cover ignoring stuff, I can march my things out in the open and keep my opponent from cheating on attack duels while maintaining optimal position in what would, otherwise, be out in the open.

The borg is no slouch in melee, but definitely not as damage producing as Joss. The borg also has armor 1 inherit, more wounds, and none of his mechanisms self-damage. While he won't output as much damage as joss if all things are ideal, his melee master and decapitate do keep him a threat.

Really i view the borg as a combination of melee fighter / tank + damage soak / support piece. His defensive and offensive abilities in tandem keep him worth the 10 points to me. Joss is awesome, but the two pieces play different roles. Joss is hyper aggressive - point, click, kill something, and hopefully repeat before joss dies. The borg is support and tank / los block on approach, and melee fighter upon delivery.

It's sorta like comparing bete noir and killjoy, and declaring that killjoy is unequivocally better because he has a greater damage output - but ignoring all the denial and survivability of Bete, as well as the costs of killjoy. Both pieces are good - but they play different roles on the table. Same thing with the borg and the Injun.

-- Haight

[Tyler Tinsley]

honestly i don't see a problem with the units in question. really with the victory condition system this game uses the two serve different roles.

also...

dude a melee killer that provides it's own armor and cover? what more do you want!

[nerdelemental]

It is most likely my fault. Sigh.

...I was mostly kidding....you know....like we used to blame Kel for everything....

[TheBugKing]

...I was mostly kidding....you know....like we used to blame Kel for everything....

Well I suppose I was mostly kidding as well. However as we were both MOSTLY kidding...

[knightdrake]

I think because the game is still new, players are kidding themselves there isn't an issues with the game. I keep seeing these posts about play up the points or do this but as far as my experience there be issues with this game on various levels. That being costing, model power levels and scenarios.

[gru6y]

Dude, English, please...

[nerdelemental]

Or be more specific at least?

There's absolutely no way to achieve absolute balance. Everyone has a different opinion of every model's power. I hate facing Ice Golems but a lot of people say they're worthless. Usually the players playing them find them lacking in value but the people facing them get more frustrated. Hans drives me nuts and scares me every game but one of our local guys swears he's no where near his points value.

Point of view.

Now, if there's something obviously off kilter to every single player then it somehow slipped through playtesting and needs an adjustment which Eric and the others have demonstrated they're not shy about fixing it appropriately.

Is Joss to cheap? Or too powerful?

Is the Steamborg the opposite at too expensive or too weak?

I've heard Bishop is broken for power and way over-costed. Which is it?

I've heard Perdita's broken. I've heard she's fragile and easily broken if you can engage her family in melee.

I've heard the Viktoria's are broken and then I've heard that they are too fragile and then I've heard that they have a high learning curve and then I've heard they're too simple and just rush up to kill and are among the easiest to learn.

There's nothing wrong with a thread like this and it might help the developers move in the right direction. But it's probably time to stop generalizing with things like "the game's got a lot of imbalances" and specify which ones, why you feel that way, what were the different gaming circumstances that led to your opinion. That sort of thing.

[Werecat]

For what it's worth, I think models like the Punk Zombies could use a looking at. They are stupid good for their cost. Similar situation with the death marshals. I think this game is great, I just think a few things need to be recosted. That's just my experience from playing so far.

[Angus Khan]

For what it's worth, I think models like the Punk Zombies could use a looking at. They are stupid good for their cost. Similar situation with the death marshals. I think this game is great, I just think a few things need to be recosted. That's just my experience from playing so far.

Remember, though, some models simply take some getting used to be worth their cost... models like the Death Marshals and Punk Zombies are very straightforward models, so people can figure them out quickly. This gives the impression of models who are "too expensive," when they actually just have a simpler, more obvious strategy for their use.

[Isoulle]

For what it's worth, I think models like the Punk Zombies could use a looking at. They are stupid good for their cost. Similar situation with the death marshals. I think this game is great, I just think a few things need to be recosted. That's just my experience from playing so far.

I think the more fundamental problem (Well, maybe problems a bad word) with them is the battlefield role they play. Damage is always the first priority, even in a mission based game. And those units are the damage units. They're the frontline fighters and they're supposed to be. Other models fill various support roles and have abilities that support ones army and pay points for this. Models like the zombies and marshals (And some others) just pay for flat damage. Every game has the front line troops that make the core of the army, they just happen to be the core for those two armies (And lets be fair. Witchling stalkers, the Ortegas, Crooked men, Terror Tots, and a number of other units are comparably good.).

In smaller games they'll make up the majority of the list but the larger the game the more room there is for support (like in all games. Frankly I like the game more in the 35-40 range. 45 is good too if you increase the hand size by 1). And personally I think most units in the game are at least comparably powerful. For most units I think the power level difference is relatively small, especially compared to other games. You know, maybe .2-.3 SS here and there.

[Werecat]

That may be at least partially true. But i think it's foolish to think that this game, as new as it is, is as close to balanced as it's going to get. Everyone shouting "this game is PERFECT! You just need to play more!" isn't good for the life of the game, because it's really not perfect. Though this game is one of the better first incarnations of a game I've seen, there's always room to fix things, and make them tighter and smoother.

So yeah, I still think the punk zombies, atleast, need to be 6 stones. And I'm sticking to that until my own play experience convinces me otherwise

(and for the record, I am a Resurectionist player. So this isn't me crying because I can't deal with Punk Zombies )

[Nathan Caroland]

Nobody is perfect and you'll certainly not hear me crying it from the mountain tops.

[chaos45]

Well I agree there are some models that just dont match up to there cost. I can tell you that I have ran several demos and even played match ups between the Lady Justice box set and the Lillith box set, and of prolly 10 games the Lillith box set has won every single one.

Kinda interesting since both forces are exactly 19 SS.

I think more people be crying over the young nephs when they release as well because of 6 SS they are very good, and honestly a better buy than a mature for 10 SS when u compare bang for the buck. In a 25 SS game your looking at 4 young nephs and lillith....thats alot of tough melee beatdown for any army to face at that lvl. Not to mention kills can equal the young turning into the mature.

As the punk zombies I agree they are good but havent seen them in play enough yet to judge. Death marshals tho I dont think are overcosted at all imo. I think the witchlings are just as useful and their 2wd explosion on death is awesome.

Just some of my observations....I think Lady J is underwhelming when compared to Lillith...so abit of master tweaking might be needed. Defense 8 is just huge, and i mean huge esp when she can easily get +2 def from an ability.

Compared to Lady J who has nothing really all that cool in all honesty...she can buff her guys some if they arent dead....and shes good with a sword but gets killed very easily...she really needed like hard to wound and I think that would have helped that model a ton, esp since her whole crew pretty much has Hard to wound 1.

[Isoulle]

That may be at least partially true. But i think it's foolish to think that this game, as new as it is, is as close to balanced as it's going to get. Everyone shouting "this game is PERFECT! You just need to play more!" isn't good for the life of the game, because it's really not perfect. Though this game is one of the better first incarnations of a game I've seen, there's always room to fix things, and make them tighter and smoother.

So yeah, I still think the punk zombies, atleast, need to be 6 stones. And I'm sticking to that until my own play experience convinces me otherwise

(and for the record, I am a Resurectionist player. So this isn't me crying because I can't deal with Punk Zombies )

I never said the game was perfect. I said it was better than average balance wise. I have a few balance small balance issues myself. But personally I think at least 90% are playable and that's WAY better than most games, old or new.

I do agree that a big problem many companies have is they won't let people speak truth to power. I think an honest dialogue is a good thing for a healthy game when it comes to gameplay balance (and most things honestly).

As for the Punk zombie, I think he's like a 5.3SS model that's 5. When you compare him to some other 5SS models and indeed some 6SS ones he doesn't look quite so powerful (Ronin, Francisco, Convict gunslinger, Johan).

[Tyler Tinsley]

I have yet to play this game enough to make any judgments one way or another. But I will say this.

Game balance is about psychology. And even then it's specific to what kind of play the game is trying to reward.

It's very easy to design a TCG that is too balanced. tcg players expect to earn an advantage during the game by carefully constructing their decks. If various groups of cards don't work better together then the game is not rewarding the type of game play they value.

From the little I have played I would say crew construction in mailfaux has more to do with the scenario and function then anything else (I think you draft your minis after determining all that stuff right?) Draw assassinate take some DPS models, draw treasure hunt take something fast and durable.

Like I said balance is ultimately about psychology. That gut feeling you have right after deployment, to the what if's and should haves of post game speculation. If you feel like you have a chance or at least had one, then that's about as balanced a game can get.

Not to say achieving that goal is easy, in fact some people will invent imbalances or even be overly optimistic about about a model that could really do with some improvement. so really your goal is to hit that sweet spot where 20% say it's awesome and 20% say it's janky trash and 60% use it because it looks cool.

[nilus]

A lot of interesting talk here. Punk Zombies are great but I think 5 SS is fine for them(For part of the play test they were 4 SS, which was way to cheap).

Personally I think talk of rebalancing and major changes should wait for at least a few more months. Lets start seeing tourney results and seeing what Crew and tactics work and what don't. No one is saying the game is 100% perfect but I think local play styles to contribute to how people precieve balance. Once we see some Global Tourney results I think we can then pin down what models might really have issues and which ones don't.

As far as Lady J being underpowered. I don't see it. She is not as heavy a hitter as Lilith but shes close. But she has a good mix of other abilites and spells to help herself and others. Part of the problem is Lilith is simply a beat stick. A very easy straight forward fury of hot death. My suggestion fighting her is make her come to you and don't get into melee unless you know you can will. Shooting the crap out of her is your best bet. Her defense is gonna make you miss a lot but it only take two good shots from a DM to kill her.

[Werecat]

I never said the game was perfect. I said it was better than average balance wise. I have a few balance small balance issues myself. But personally I think at least 90% are playable and that's WAY better than most games, old or new.

See, and I'm not sure I agree with that. Is it better balanced than most new games? Yes. Is it better balanced than alot of old games? I don't think so.

But essentially, I'm just glad that we can speak our concerns. I trust the developers to make the right decisions. If I have a concern, but it's a concern that they recognize, and they decide not to change anything, then I'm still perfectly happy with that.