How to beat Witness (not a call for nerfs)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just realized that the Damian player can likely just counter Yan lo with some soulstone miners to slaughter the minions.

Damian is likely going to get scarier once people start teching his lists.

I might give Damian a go to see how viable that is xD

[Adran]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just realized that the Damian player can likely just counter Yan lo with some soulstone miners to slaughter the minions.

Damian is likely going to get scarier once people start teching his lists.

I might give Damian a go to see how viable that is xD

That is an interesting idea I'm just not sure how much Damien loses by having non witness models.  

There is probably a number of witness models you don't want to drop below to keep the configuration running.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

That is an interesting idea I'm just not sure how much Damien loses by having non witness models.  

There is probably a number of witness models you don't want to drop below to keep the configuration running.

I think 3 gamin, miya, lohith, and 2 OOKs gives you 5 house the soul and 7 cycles into the config every turn... So cycle 7 cards + whatever other shenanigans you have seems like heaps.

EDIT: For reference, here's my current draft of a sample list (you'd adjust OOKs based on matchup and pool)

Try Ooks (Arcanists)
Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Damian Ravencroft, Unbound
Totem(s):
  The Puzzle Box
Hires:
  Lohith
  Miya Murakami
  Soulstone Gamin
  Soulstone Gamin 2
  Soulstone Gamin 3
  Coryphee Duet
  Arcane Effigy
    Effigy of Fate
References:
  The Configuration

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think 3 gamin, miya, lohith, and 2 OOKs gives you 4 house the soul and 7 cycles into the config every turn... So cycle 7 cards + whatever other shenanigans you have seems like heaps.

EDIT: For reference, here's my current draft of a sample list (you'd adjust OOKs based on matchup and pool)

Try Ooks (Arcanists)
Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Damian Ravencroft, Unbound
Totem(s):
  The Puzzle Box
Hires:
  Lohith
  Miya Murakami
  Soulstone Gamin
  Soulstone Gamin 2
  Soulstone Gamin 3
  Coryphee Duet
  Arcane Effigy
    Effigy of Fate
References:
  The Configuration

It does look very armour heavy, and otherwise squishy, and I'm not sure it will get much chance to draw range through others very often ( at least if I faced the list I would try to jump on the gamin and the box if they gave me any chance. )

So you only really have 3 models that you want to see the enemy for the first few turns, which would worry me a little since most of the list doesn't really have the mobility to avoid combat and still affect the board. ( they could still affect the game, which is different). 

And of those 3, only 2 get bonuses from the config.

But that's further tech choices, which is interesting but complex mind games. My main point would be that this list is pushing certain things to the extremes, but one thing I think it pushes to the extreme is the crews weaknesses,  and this is more vulnerable to that which I suggested to counter witness earlier,  ( whilst gaining more power in certain areas) So it is just encouraging people to tech more of the same things needed to beat witness in the first place, which can be risky. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

It does look very armour heavy, and otherwise squishy, and I'm not sure it will get much chance to draw range through others very often ( at least if I faced the list I would try to jump on the gamin and the box if they gave me any chance. )

So you only really have 3 models that you want to see the enemy for the first few turns, which would worry me a little since most of the list doesn't really have the mobility to avoid combat and still affect the board. ( they could still affect the game, which is different). 

And of those 3, only 2 get bonuses from the config.

But that's further tech choices, which is interesting but complex mind games. My main point would be that this list is pushing certain things to the extremes, but one thing I think it pushes to the extreme is the crews weaknesses,  and this is more vulnerable to that which I suggested to counter witness earlier,  ( whilst gaining more power in certain areas) So it is just encouraging people to tech more of the same things needed to beat witness in the first place, which can be risky. 

Possibly, worth testing!

When facing Witness so far, I've felt like all I have to do is make Damian have some bad activations and the crew fumbles from not having enough threats. So I'm curious what happens if you increase the threat density.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Any thoughts for beating Witness with Outcasts?

My friend and I were just brainstorming factions for our upcoming tournament, but we know some of the players ordered Witness models so want to be prepared.

Not sure Outcasts have any solid plays into Witness?

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Any thoughts for beating Witness with Outcasts?

My friend and I were just brainstorming factions for our upcoming tournament, but we know some of the players ordered Witness models so want to be prepared.

Not sure Outcasts have any solid plays into Witness?

Hamelin 2 maybe? Has an Obey to punish Damian 1's config cheating, and can abuse Lohith's damage aura and Damian 2's node targeting. Also can stun him without needing a trigger as a bonus action.

Blocking severes with Nix is great as well. Nihilism to block injured is nice, and if you can manage to stack blight bleeding disease is pretty scary for Damian's longevity.

[LexLock]

Stacking blight is pretty hard without triggers.

 

Maybe 33 kidnap? Either use it to grab key models or grab damien2 when he dives you.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Any thoughts for beating Witness with Outcasts?

My friend and I were just brainstorming factions for our upcoming tournament, but we know some of the players ordered Witness models so want to be prepared.

Not sure Outcasts have any solid plays into Witness?

This has had no practical experience it's just my first ideas. 

Plague. Go blight and concentrate on lohith. Lots of little attacks on him to get the blight so he can't cheat them all. If any gamin of the box shows its face try and get rid of the as fast as you can. Don't go for Damien early on unless you think you have a good chance to finish him. 

Mercenary. I'd go for ronin to get at the support models ( who rely on armour) and possibly kenshiro to help charge round corners. 

Bandit. Mad dog is good (duh!) And will scare lothith. Run and gun to keep my distance from them and still be able to attack. Aim to get at the support models.

Infamous. Use mobility to avoid the big models and get at the support.  Pianos can prevent some of the los requiring thing's (maintain order or beacon of order or refraction). First mate is a good shout fir getting to the houses the soul 

Amalgam. I'm not sure if a horseman list or not is the way to go. Normal levi is a good minion killer, which is nice to shift the support, but the horses are mobile and capable of multiple duels to help drain witnesses hand. 

Tormented. Try and use the fact you can have more cards than Witness to neuter the normal hand advantage. 

Obliterate. Try and get to the support with fast, and then unbury in there to cause havoc. 

Friekorps. Probably the hardest. Just play your normal game and hope you can do it better than the Witness game. You are durable. I might consider holding on to the threat of the 9 damage Hannah to try and keep Witness away. 

Versatile. I would look at midnight stalker as a fast leaping model. 

[Plaag]

13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Any thoughts for beating Witness with Outcasts?

My friend and I were just brainstorming factions for our upcoming tournament, but we know some of the players ordered Witness models so want to be prepared.

Not sure Outcasts have any solid plays into Witness?

ez kill with leveticus/von schill/tara title

[Plaag]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

This has had no practical experience it's just my first ideas. 

Plague. Go blight and concentrate on lohith. Lots of little attacks on him to get the blight so he can't cheat them all. If any gamin of the box shows its face try and get rid of the as fast as you can. Don't go for Damien early on unless you think you have a good chance to finish him. 

Mercenary. I'd go for ronin to get at the support models ( who rely on armour) and possibly kenshiro to help charge round corners. 

Bandit. Mad dog is good (duh!) And will scare lothith. Run and gun to keep my distance from them and still be able to attack. Aim to get at the support models.

Infamous. Use mobility to avoid the big models and get at the support.  Pianos can prevent some of the los requiring thing's (maintain order or beacon of order or refraction). First mate is a good shout fir getting to the houses the soul 

Amalgam. I'm not sure if a horseman list or not is the way to go. Normal levi is a good minion killer, which is nice to shift the support, but the horses are mobile and capable of multiple duels to help drain witnesses hand. 

Tormented. Try and use the fact you can have more cards than Witness to neuter the normal hand advantage. 

Obliterate. Try and get to the support with fast, and then unbury in there to cause havoc. 

Friekorps. Probably the hardest. Just play your normal game and hope you can do it better than the Witness game. You are durable. I might consider holding on to the threat of the 9 damage Hannah to try and keep Witness away. 

Versatile. I would look at midnight stalker as a fast leaping model. 

lohith is not the main model in witness(its a secret)))

so killing him will not give u big advatages

i mostly play damian without him

just 10ss with 2 actions-not very cool

[Adran]

42 minutes ago, Plaag said:

lohith is not the main model in witness(its a secret)))

so killing him will not give u big advatages

i mostly play damian without him

just 10ss with 2 actions-not very cool

From the little experience I have, house the soul is a big thing for keeping the suits ready for the start if next turn ( and when I have played him I build to try and focus on 1 main suit, and he is much worse if i can't get that suit running). Damien without any free suits is less scary to face. 

It may well be that you can make him viable with no configuration support beyond it cycling the hand ( which is still good) and then yes, all my advice is fairly useless . 

[Kharnage]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

so killing him will not give u big advatages

 

Denying Damian arbitrary + to damage flips feels like a pretty big advantage though

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Plaag said:

ez kill with leveticus/von schill/tara title

I get Von Schill, but doesn't Leveticus just die to Damian 2 kidnap into melee (no triggers or stones) and then lohith coming in to lantern of souls him?

And what about Tara in particular?  I would have assumed her crew would struggle to land hits, as she isn't great vs card draw crews. But haven't played much against Tara2.

[Adran]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I get Von Schill, but doesn't Leveticus just die to Damian 2 kidnap into melee (no triggers or stones) and then lohith coming in to lantern of souls him?

And what about Tara in particular?  I would have assumed her crew would struggle to land hits, as she isn't great vs card draw crews. But haven't played much against Tara2.

One assumes that for Plaag there is no lohith and so lantern of souls isn't an issue...

( well that and levi has the stat advatage on the chains of the tyrant, so may well not be as easily kidnapped, he can be kidnapped by the absolute control, but that's much slower and often needs to wait till later in the turn to get best trigger usage so activation order may be complicated).

( I would certainly expect lohith to face leviticus, but I still expect him in most lists, so what do I know?)

[Plaag]

13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I get Von Schill, but doesn't Leveticus just die to Damian 2 kidnap into melee (no triggers or stones) and then lohith coming in to lantern of souls him?

And what about Tara in particular?  I would have assumed her crew would struggle to land hits, as she isn't great vs card draw crews. But haven't played much against Tara2.

standart levi crew(dog+2-3 scavengers) just kill damian crew on range

title damian not dangerous-he is just a tank-u can ignore him

tara title with same 1-2 scavengеrs bury any model she dont like and kill

og damian is more dangerous

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, my friend tried out the soulstine miner tech and I'm back to trying to figure out to beat him 🤣

[Azahul]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:46 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

And what about Tara in particular?  I would have assumed her crew would struggle to land hits, as she isn't great vs card draw crews. But haven't played much against Tara2.

Bit late to the party on this one (I don't look at the Arcanist subforum a whole lot) but from a Tara1 perspective your answer to card draw crews is a combination of:

a) Summon Void Wretches to gum up the works. Two Void Wretches attacking random support models becomes really taxing, since their Stutter Times are as good as any other and while you, the Tara player, aren't fussed if they hit or miss and thus don't need to spend cards on it, your opponent isn't going to be wanting to fail Glimpse the Void checks so will frequently be cheating 9+ cards in to pass whenever you sneak a hit in (which will happen even at Stat 4 just from the weight of attacks). Forcing opponents to spend good cards on trivial attacks is the main way Tara taxes an opposing hand.

b) You play assuming you aren't winning the brawl and mostly play a delaying tactic game. The few times you do try to kill a model it is likely to be a cheap model with poor defences that you can bury and delete with Talos to chip away at your opponent's AP and force their big combat models to spend more time scoring than fighting to stay in the game.

c) And of course there's good old Time Warp card counting.

[Kevinsmith101]

Been using Cassandra with Damien 1 in some practice games and her ability to copy tactical actions in the witness keyword is really solid, double confiscated lore, extra witness obey,copy loiths ability for more pos flips, what do you think?! Sorry just realised this isn't relevant to the thread apologies. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Kevinsmith101