How to beat Witness (not a call for nerfs)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Right, recently Witness just smashed an event in the World Series, and so naturally questions are being raised about power levels. However, it's not uncommon for a master to smash an unprepared meta. The true test of a master's power level is to what degree a prepared meta can take them on IMO.

So... What are people thinking can actually counter Witness? What can you reasonably declare into Arcanists that can deal with Witness, and what do you tech or do to defeat the keyword?

My personal take is that you generally can't determine if a master is broken for probably 3-4 months after release. So in the mean time... Let's tech and figure out what we can try!

[TimH]

Out of curioisity do you know if they were predominantly playing Aspirant or Unbound? Aspirant very much looks like a choking denial piece with all these overlapping auras and LoS abilities from your various pieces that limit the opponents choice of what they can do with their models. Unbound on the other hand is losing a lot of that but cant have triggers declared against him and if you set him up correctly throws out giant healing pulses with every attack. Agree that its much too early to say "nerf this" but I would be unsurprised to see Unbound's Resonate Power Trigger errated to be "to a maximum of 2" to keep it in line with his other triggers.

Against unbound I imagine you use something mobile or ranged and just snipe the Puzzlebox at your first opportunity. Unbound can't bring it back and having it off the board means one less House the Soul, no more rework the configuration and no more giving fast to Bonati or Ledger. With how his anti trigger ability works you probably just run some big heavy hitters into Unbound and try chunking him to death with models that dont need triggers (assuming spending time killing him is even the correct option). Carrion Emissary in ressers seems a solid pick against him, the aura stops him healing off of his attack or grinding down Lohith for prevention flips and 2/4/5 damage flip should put some work in. Greatswords and similar style weapons in other factions, might try Nekima1 when I play against my local Arcanist.

[Jinn]

Honestly I'd guess bringing a decent amount of Armour (or other reduction) would be quite effective. Damian 1 can only turn it off on one model per turn, and can't turn off reduction for Masters. Most of the crew has weak damage spreads, so even Armour +1 would slow them down a lot. Terracotta Warriors in TT would probably deter both versions a lot, and a Gwisin in rezzers would probably be a pain if you handed off Unbound's Chains kidnap thing to it. I wouldn't be super happy about trying to hit that thing 2-3 times on turn 1 with Damian.

[Adran]

Stunned is probably a very good consideration,  witness has a lot of power in triggers. 

Outside that I think it depends on which flavour of witness you face, and just out playing their game plan. ( from what I've seen of witness, it plays quite differently depending on how you build it, even before it playing differently based on which title).

I also think it might be worth learning to hunt House the soul figures...

[TimH]

Stunned is definitely a good shout. Against Unbound though you have to be careful about how you plan to get it onto him due to him cancelling your suits and a lot of stuns being on triggers. Theres definitely ways around that though. Both Pandoras and Candy in NB, Nightsilk Creeper in Explorers, Dita2, Ophelia2 and McCabe 2 can all get it on him pretty reliably. In ressers your fine if you declared Von Schtook due to lecture notes. For the most part though those stun options are only going to be available based on what master you declared though. Sniping gamin and the puzzlebox will definitely slow the crew.

[SEV]

Declaring Dora into arc seems the way to go for purple right now. But I don't have any games against Witness yet. So we'll see I guess 😀

[Peturd]

My thoughts, for what they are worth: All my games so far have been using Damian1 so that may color things, and I've only got a few under my belt so far with him. But it's not that each model seems super powerful, it's the fact that I often have 10-14 cards to choose from, by the time my opponent has none. So I can build up amazing hands and force things through. Soooo, it's not just house the soul models but just all the smaller models in general. Take out Miya, Dabblers, gamin, Leger and Marco. If you can ignore the scary stuff I don't have card advantage or baked in crows easily when we get in the scrum turn 3 onwards.

And confirm kills, don't ping away at a couple things at the same time between activations. There is lots of access to pings of healing that add up quick. So bringing crews that rely on doing lots of pings spread out isn't ideal. And maybe bring card draw or crews that don't rely on a strong hand as much (positive flips, high stat, anti-cheat abilities like Combat Finesse etc.)?

[Jinn]

Von Schtook with a Valley alpha strike to clean up some of the smaller config supporting models would be great I'd guess. Armour +1 and Hard to Wound are a great combo that neither title can easily bypass.

Another great counter to Damian 2 is an obey if they bring Lohith. If he puts that aura up then you can Obey him to attack a Witness and have him take damage for the duel and then the damage flip, and if they don't relent then you can take a damage on him to give them plus. Hit them with the tome trigger on his melee to cause a simple duel, take a damage to give them plus. Stone for the tome and use Living Soulstone to wreck their config, ditching a high card or the suit they need lol. Technically wouldn't you add the card to your discard? You can use other models with House the Soul as a node for his projectile in D2 as well.

Obey vs. Lohith is a pretty brutal counter tbh, even if he never uses his aura. Damian 1 is also really hard countered by Obeys actually, they can discard a card to cheat with his config! Really bad for Damian.

Edit: I think using Lohith to mess with their configuration wouldn't work, as the ability text is actually referring to the current controller's configuration. I had thought it was simply from the perspective of the model, but apparently that is only for friendly and enemy. The common english interpretation of "your" would be the player, and precedence from the section about control specifies that you use your Control Hand, Stones, and spend only your resources.

Damian 1 can still have his Config ruined by the enemy though. Lohith is still vulnerable to murdering himself if he has that aura up too.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Jinn

[admiralvorkraft]

I'm probably running Sonnia, to encourage picking Unbound. Then going full-on trigger hate. 2x Spelleaters, 2x Quellers, llc on Sonnia and Sam, one model flex...

Just a theory.

[Jinn]

Models with Infiltrator can discard to cheat using the Config if you declare Damian 1, which is pretty brutal.

[Trample]

The crew seems pretty fragile overall with a couple of exceptions. It struggles with armor and is pretty susceptible to stunned. If you have the capacity to do so, I think the best option against this crew is hit the second level hard. I would move right past Damien (well #2, Damien 1 I would just try to kill) and Lohith with the aim of attacking Marco, Miya, Box, Dabblers, and Gamin in probably that order. They provide so much of the repository fuel that helps the crew function while having limited defensive capability that I think you go in to a Witness match planning to win the attrition war. You're going to lose a bit to either title but they seem to me a bit like a bully that will fold when they get punched. 

I watched a bit of a couple of those games and really didn't see much aggression from the opposing players. That's what I would try. 

The armor and stunned options mentioned above seem really good too. A combo, like a really aggressive Von Schill or Hoffman crew might be a good combo.  

[Adran]

On 8/31/2022 at 2:01 PM, TimH said:

Stunned is definitely a good shout. Against Unbound though you have to be careful about how you plan to get it onto him due to him cancelling your suits and a lot of stuns being on triggers. 

I was more talking about the crew in general, so even if you are facing unbound you can still plan to use stun triggers, just not on Damien. The whole crew has a lot of power in triggers, especially on having  them built in with the configuration.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:02 PM, TimH said:

Out of curioisity do you know if they were predominantly playing Aspirant or Unbound?

Unbound at the time of the posting, but I think there was another tournament with Damian dominating where I heard complaints about both!

On 8/31/2022 at 10:02 PM, TimH said:

Against unbound I imagine you use something mobile or ranged and just snipe the Puzzlebox at your first opportunity... Carrion Emissary in ressers seems a solid pick against him, the aura stops him healing off of his attack or grinding down Lohith for prevention flips and 2/4/5 damage flip should put some work in.

This is my first plan against him - use superior mobility to try to snipe all the little guys. One issue is apparently his board coverage is WILD since all the members of the crew can draw range from 5+ different places with Damian 2.

Carrion Emissary I'm pretty sceptical of. He'll die in 3 hits xD And is a model that struggles generally anyway. Dead rider + reaping carrion emissary does some work, but I don't think it could do work fast enough here 😕 Still, maybe worth a go, or the effigy accomplice combo!

Assuming you can hit past all that card draw xD

On 9/1/2022 at 12:40 AM, Jinn said:

Honestly I'd guess bringing a decent amount of Armour (or other reduction) would be quite effective.

Yeah, my hope is to bring armored, stone using models so that they have reduction against both titles.

On 9/1/2022 at 12:46 AM, Adran said:

Stunned is probably a very good consideration,  witness has a lot of power in triggers. 

Damian 2 can remove it in an aoe (including on himself), but efficient stun should act as a bit of a tax at least.

On 9/1/2022 at 1:12 AM, SEV said:

Declaring Dora into arc seems the way to go for purple right now. But I don't have any games against Witness yet. So we'll see I guess 😀

Yeah, I was thinking Pandora seems good as she's got so much expendable chaff and her luck thief does serious work here. Plus Ancient Pact negates the Inkfingers initiative advantage to a degree.

On 9/1/2022 at 3:07 AM, Jinn said:

Models with Infiltrator can discard to cheat using the Config if you declare Damian 1, which is pretty brutal.

I don't believe this is correct (you use those abilities using YOUR configuration, so the obey-er has no configuration to work with

Hopefully I sort of addressed everyone's points!

I do think killing all the backliners seems very promising if you can do it, but I'm not sure how many crews can run past the front line without dying... I suspect Yan Lo will probably do pretty okay, but I already kinda feel he's broken so that's not a good sign if he's the main answer for Ressers xD

[TimH]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Damian 2 can remove it in an aoe (including on himself), but efficient stun should act as a bit of a tax at least.

Unless I'm missing something Unbound's condition removal is tied to a pulse as opposed to an aura and so can't cleanse the stun off of himself.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, TimH said:

Unless I'm missing something Unbound's condition removal is tied to a pulse as opposed to an aura and so can't cleanse the stun off of himself.

 

He can draw range and los from another model, so can be in the pulse.

[DuBlanck]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

He can draw range and los from another model, so can be in the pulse.

Is that how that works for Pulses?
I'd assumed that, absent a declared target, the origin was "this model" - so there is no range or LoS to draw.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Is that how that works for Pulses?
I'd assumed that, absent a declared target, the origin was "this model" - so there is no range or LoS to draw.

See the Wong FAQ - the object that is ignored is the one you're drawing LOS from.

So I think it works!

[Jinn]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't believe this is correct (you use those abilities using YOUR configuration, so the obey-er has no configuration to work with

You do, but Damian 1 has the ability so it refers to HIS configuration. His ability allows friendly Witness models to cheat using his configuration, which includes when they are obeyed or if they happen to be infiltrators.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

See the Wong FAQ - the object that is ignored is the one you're drawing LOS from.

So I think it works!

Are you talking about the using an object instead if a shockwave marker? Because that is quite a different question,  so I'm not sure it's answer is relevant ( the model becomes the object that creates the shockwave pulse according to the rules,  so its not going to be affected by the pulse rules).

I'm not sure of the answer,  but I don't think that FAQ helps. 

Strictly Damien is still the object creating the pulse, which is what is excluded from the pulse. 

[Kharnage]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Strictly Damien is still the object creating the pulse, which is what is excluded from the pulse. 

This is an interesting point. Quoting BRB for reference:
"All models inside the Pulse's area or overlapping the object generating the Pulse, excluding the object that created the Pulse, are affected by the pulse as long as they are in the generating object's LoS".
They go out of their way to use 'generating' vs 'created', which, you know, means the same thing, but in context the implication is that they're different for our purposes. I was initially aghast at such an interpretation, but you've given me something to chew on. So this means, in theory, that Damian can't cleanse Stunned off himself, which is a massive deal. I'm sure this has some implications that I haven't considered yet in some other model, but for now, I'm excited that Damian has a hole in his wall against counterplay.

[Kharnage]

Actually, I think that FAQ is hella relevant now that I think on it. The Wong Uncontrollable Magic shockwave thing is a clear cut example of a pulse excluding the object that the pulse is literally being drawn from, and even goes so far as to reference the BRB and the pulse rules. The only model to get ignored 'as per the core pulse rules' that they expressly reference in that FAQ, is the model that "created" the pulse, clearly implying that the don't consider Wong to be the 'creator' of the pulse. Hence, Damian can cleanse conditions on himself if he draws from Lohith (or whatever)

[Yore Huckleberry]

I think this is decently clear that when you re-center a shockwave, the newly-centered marker/model is now the reference point for what is ignored via the core rulebook.

Restore the Natural Order is a different kind of pulse, but it is still having its "object creating the pulse" centered in a new location, and as such, it seems pretty clear that the object it's being centered on is the one that's ignored, rather than the "model creating the pulse" being ignored. (much as I'd love to chip away at Damian's toolset)

[Yore Huckleberry]

@Kharnageninja'd me, ha

[Adran]

28 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Actually, I think that FAQ is hella relevant now that I think on it. The Wong Uncontrollable Magic shockwave thing is a clear cut example of a pulse excluding the object that the pulse is literally being drawn from, and even goes so far as to reference the BRB and the pulse rules. The only model to get ignored 'as per the core pulse rules' that they expressly reference in that FAQ, is the model that "created" the pulse, clearly implying that the don't consider Wong to be the 'creator' of the pulse. Hence, Damian can cleanse conditions on himself if he draws from Lohith (or whatever)

I can't quote as I'm on a phone, but the shockwave rules have the shockwave marker as being the thing that creates the pulse, not the model that made the shockwave action, so the shockwave marker is excluded from the shockwave effects by the core rules. As the model is acting as the shockwave marker it is excluded. 

So by the shockwave rules wong isn't the creator of the pulse. 

Hence I don't think it's a relevant FAQ.

[Kharnage]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I can't quote as I'm on a phone,

Lemme help.

Notice that this ruling doesn't refer to Shockwaves to uphold its logic, it specifically refers to Pulses. That would be because Shockwaves don't actually mention whether or not the generating marker/object of the Shockwave is affected at all; indeed, it assumes the effect is centered on a marker rather than a model, so there would be no reason to specify that a Shockwave marker is excluded from the Shockwave's effects, since it's likely that it doesn't even have stats. (Reposted below for reference)

With this in place, the only rules that govern what is excluded, is the Pulse rules, which is what they refer to in order to make the case that the model centered on with Uncontrollable Magic isn't affected; Pulse mechanics, not Shockwave mechanics.
Damian gets to cleanse himself using Lohith.