Help my friends to choose their first Master

[Arko]

Hello, I need some help for 2 friends of mine who want to start Malifaux.

 

So this is what they prefer visually (but are open to any other suggestions, as they like 90% of the minis) :

 

GUILD

Soniia Criid

Dashel

Hoffman

RESSURECTIONNISTS

Von Schtook

NEVERBORN

Dreamer

Zoraida

ARCANISTS

Kaeris (to be more precise, one of my friend totally fell in love with the "Burning bridges" box, and especially the Firebranded, but apparently they suck?)

OUTCASTS

Leveticus

Hamelin

TEN THUNDERS

Jacob lynch

EXPLORER

Lucas Mccabe

Cooper

 

Gameplay wise, one of my friend likes :

- Everything that is magic related, especially ranged spells, summonning monsters etc...,

- Having a well rounded list, with a bit of range spells, a bit of close combat, a bit of tanking, a bit of everything if possible. He doesn't like "one dimensional" gameplay,

- Movement tricks like teleportation, miniature who can move again, and all those kind of stuff.

 

The other one likes :

- Guns, pistols, rifles, everything that can shoot bullets, he likes range oriented gameplay,

- Fast miniatures and/or movement tricks like my other friend,

- Conditions tokens

- He likes dirty tricks, so anything that can make his opponent a living hell and play with his ressources (like the cards for example)

 

EDITED following @Maniacal_cackleadvice and stealing @Firiosidea

[Azahul]

Have you checked the Wyrd website? They have a brief gameplay summary of each Master (not Titles though, but the Keyword commentary can carry over) on the Malifaux section:

 

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux

 

Clicking on the faction symbols will take you there.

 

It is worth noting that, while reflective of the way Wyrd intended those Masters to play, there might be a few cases where the competitive community has found better playstyles using different approaches, but I don't think that matters that much when starting out.

[Arko]

19 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Have you checked the Wyrd website? They have a brief gameplay summary of each Master (not Titles though, but the Keyword commentary can carry over) on the Malifaux section:

 

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux

 

Clicking on the faction symbols will take you there.

 

It is worth noting that, while reflective of the way Wyrd intended those Masters to play, there might be a few cases where the competitive community has found better playstyles using different approaches, but I don't think that matters that much when starting out.

Hello, yes we have checked this of course, but it is not detailed enough, what we are looking for is, for example, something like :

DREAMER 1 :

- Gameplay : Summons, card manipulations, movement tricks,...

- Strenghts : Healing, Terrifying, Tarpit,...

- Weaknesses : Staggered, Anti-healing, Range damage,...

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Arko said:

Hello, yes we have checked this of course, but it is not detailed enough, what we are looking for is, for example, something like :

DREAMER 1 :

- Gameplay : Summons, card manipulations, movement tricks,...

- Strenghts : Healing, Terrifying, Tarpit,...

- Weaknesses : Staggered, Anti-healing, Range damage,...

I don't know of anyone who could write that for more than a couple of masters in a way that would truly capture the masters.

Malifaux has so much depth it is usually better to handle things master by master or faction by faction.

[Arko]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't know of anyone who could write that for more than a couple of masters in a way that would truly capture the masters.

Malifaux has so much depth it is usually better to handle things master by master or faction by faction.

Well, we just need 8 good players (one for each faction, i am sure those guys are here on this forum), and we could definitely do it

Again, it will be very helpful for new players. Now, I understand what you're saying about the depth and complexity, and I agree, hence why we are looking for a quick "general" summarize of the masters, not an in-depth guide, because it can be very tricky to choose your first faction and master.

 

The problem is, Malifaux can get really expensive real quick, as you will need your Master box + 2-3 boxes of your faction so my 2 friends just want to be 100% sure about which faction/master to play before buying anything.

[Scoffer]

Nice people from Malifaux University have created a series of leader analysis videos for new players. It's not exactly what you are looking for, but pretty close.

29 minutes ago, Arko said:

The problem is, Malifaux can get really expensive real quick, as you will need your Master box + 2-3 boxes of your faction so my 2 friends just want to be 100% sure about which faction/master to play before buying anything.

The only right way to choose your first master is to choose with your heart. To be honest, I've never heard about someone who bought his first box after a deep analysis of all strong and weak sides of masters and played the game long enough to become the great champion or everyone's friend. Most malifaux stories start with "I saw a box of pigs/monsters/bandits/dead prostitutes and couldn't eat and sleep till I bought it".

 

[Adran]

59 minutes ago, Arko said:

Hello, yes we have checked this of course, but it is not detailed enough, what we are looking for is, for example, something like :

DREAMER 1 :

- Gameplay : Summons, card manipulations, movement tricks,...

- Strenghts : Healing, Terrifying, Tarpit,...

- Weaknesses : Staggered, Anti-healing, Range damage,...

The problem I'd say is that I'm not sure that this is useful for most people ( not least because I'm not sure how correct this example is, I wouldn't say dreamer is a movement tricks master, even thought there are some in keyword, so I wouldn't count staggered as a weakness, but the fact most of the crew rely on the same defensive abilities ( terrifying) is a weakness, because it becomes easier to counter.). 

Magic isn't really a separate game style in malifaux, there is very little difference between a bullet and a fireball in this game, or a normal sword and flaming fists... ( but lots of people do think of it as a game style because it is different in other games).

Probably not too helpful but if your all new players starting together I would start with smaller games so you can just use the core box to start with in most cases to get an idea on what a keyword is like. Then when people understand the "game" they are more easily able to understand what the masters do and which is most likely to match what they want, with less of an outlay. ( not perfect by any means, and summoner masters will either play really badly due to lack of options or require more outlay).  

 

So probably the reason it's not been done is no 2 malifaux players could agree on a system that was useful. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Hopefully you can find people to make such a list.

If not, I find the most successful way to do it is to make a shortlist of interesting masters or factions and ask for specific advice.

Here's an example thread that worked really well at soliciting advice:

 

[Arko]

@Scoffer: Thanks for the videos, we are going to check that !

 

@Adran : i understand what you mean, so it looks like that kind of list is impossible...That said, again, they don't want to buy anything without being sure about their faction, so no starter box for the moment. I don't blame them, because miniature games are expensive in general 😕

@Maniacal_cackle : Yes, I saw that thread and started to read it, it sounds better to help them find what they want, thanks for the idea. We are going to check the videos provided by Scoffer, and if it is not enough, I will come put here what they would want gameplay wise.

[Arko]

Alright so, the videos were good and informative, but unfortunately not enough for them to make a choice. It helped them getting rid of some Masters though.

 

So sorry @Firios, but i am going to steal your idea here, I hope you don't mind

 

So this is what they like visually :

 

GUILD

Soniia Criid

Dashel

Hoffman

RESSURECTIONNISTS

Von Schtook

NEVERBORN

Dreamer

Zoraida

ARCANISTS

Kaeris (to be more precise, one of my friend totally fell in love with the "Burning bridges" box, and especially the Firebranded, but apparently they suck?)

OUTCASTS

Leveticus

Hamelin

TEN THUNDERS

Jacob lynch

EXPLORER

Lucas Mccabe

Cooper

 

Gameplay wise, one of my friend likes :

- Everything that is magic related, especially ranged spells, summonning monsters etc...,

- Having a well rounded list, with a bit of range spells, a bit of close combat, a bit of tanking, a bit of everything if possible. He doesn't like "one dimensional" gameplay,

- Movement tricks like teleportation, miniature who can move again, and all those kind of stuff.

 

The other one likes :

- Guns, pistols, rifles, everything that can shoot bullets, he likes range oriented gameplay,

- Fast miniatures and/or movement tricks like my other friend,

- Conditions tokens

- He likes dirty tricks, so anything that can make his opponent a living hell and play with his ressources (like the cards for example)

[dannydb]

so first of all, only some people think Firebranded, suck, a fair few people quite like them, the heal a lot and are relatively tanky with a decent ranged attack 

 

your magic liking friend, have they had a look at sandeep, there not usually the first master I'd suggest to new players as there a bit expensive to collect as their crew is spread around several boxes, but thermality they fit a lot of what you listed, he himself is a ranged magical summoner that also gets to make his models take extra actions outside of their activations while his crew is diverse featuring everything from tanky elemental golems, to fast moving wind gamin to human mages as well having a fair few movement tricks. 

the other possible crew to look at would be molly who would prob be cheaper but has a lot of the same appeal. she's a ranged spell caster, who doesn't summon herself but does have a model in her crew that does, and is more controlling than sandeep and her crew has a ton of movement tricks.

 

for your model who likes guns, perdita, raspy, parker, lord cooper and ophelia are generaly your "gun" crews, where as if your looking for conditions, mcmoring and brewy are your poison crews, kaeris, Reva and Sonia are your fire crews and then pandora kind of uses all conditions 

if your looking for control crews, then youko, colette and seamus all can be controlling, youko actually makes your opponent start with one less card, Colette is highly mobile while having tones of movement tricks while seamus also has a ton of movement attacks while also carrying around the biggest gun in the game 

[muraki]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

Alright so, the videos were good and informative, but unfortunately not enough for them to make a choice. It helped them getting rid of some Masters though.

 

So sorry @Firios, but i am going to steal your idea here, I hope you don't mind

 

So this is what they like visually :

 

GUILD

Soniia Criid

Dashel

Hoffman

RESSURECTIONNISTS

Von Schtook

NEVERBORN

Dreamer

Zoraida

ARCANISTS

Kaeris (to be more precise, one of my friend totally fell in love with the "Burning bridges" box, and especially the Firebranded, but apparently they suck?)

OUTCASTS

Leveticus

Hamelin

TEN THUNDERS

Jacob lynch

EXPLORER

Lucas Mccabe

Cooper

 

Gameplay wise, one of my friend likes :

- Everything that is magic related, especially ranged spells, summonning monsters etc...,

- Having a well rounded list, with a bit of range spells, a bit of close combat, a bit of tanking, a bit of everything if possible. He doesn't like "one dimensional" gameplay,

- Movement tricks like teleportation, miniature who can move again, and all those kind of stuff.

 

The other one likes :

- Guns, pistols, rifles, everything that can shoot bullets, he likes range oriented gameplay,

- Fast miniatures and/or movement tricks like my other friend,

- Conditions tokens

- He likes dirty tricks, so anything that can make his opponent a living hell and play with his ressources (like the cards for example)

Interesting List... so for me it would be:

Friend 1 (magic / well rounded / movement):

• Kaeris - has the magic spell casting down + is fast as all get out.  Slightly lower on well-rounded as her key is very focused on what they do, but arcanists have some great versatiles that round out a lot of crews.
• Lynch - not the most magical but 'rig the deck' is very unique and makes you feel like youre a bit of a magician.  Has summons and a lot of different types of models (fast / tarpit / etc).
• Dreamer - again, not the most magical but the summon / nightmare theme makes it feel very interesting and the keyword is very visually appealing.

Friend 2 (guns / speed / conditions / dirty tricks):

• Cooper - has one of the best guns in the game, but his keyword is no 1 dimensional slouch.  Fast puppies and other support pieces give a surprising amount of movement and the big gun / unique totems makes you feel a bit like your cheating.
• Zoraida - doesn't have guns, but as the premier obey master in the game 'dirty tricks' is basically her core mechanic.  Combined with leaping models she's very quick across the board.
• Leveticus - while not specifically a 'gun' crew, it is a high damage crew (which is what most people kind of want when they say guns) irreducible damage / no heal / damage auras makes for a very 'oh you had something for that, thats cute' kind of dirty trick experience.
• McCabe - this one leans more into the speed bit for me, as mccabe / his crew have guns but they're not the greatest, and they arent the sturdiest, but they can be very fast, and there's enough going on in the key / faction to give you some nice options, and the upgrades are very fun to use once you get the hang of it.

Obviously this doesn't mean things cant switch things from group 1 to 2, like kaeris has movement tricks and her core attack has a gun symbol so it's basically a gun by rules even if its a flameblast, and zoraida can be seen as pretty 'magicy' and has a summoner option.  The 'movement' tag in both players requests lets there be a lot more cross pollination.

Prolly wouldnt go for:

• Sonnia - while she's very magicey she's not a very fast keyword, so if controlling placement is a big bit, prolly not for you.

That said most of the stuff on the list has things that fit into those buckets, as you can build a fast hoffman or dashel crew, and schtook tends to have enough versatility to come into most fights even if 1/2 the time that comes from 'i beat down that tricksy piece fast' ha.

[Arko]

Thanks for your answers @dannydb @muraki, with what you said + some youtube battle reports videos + a complete review of the aesthetic of the minis for each faction etc,...here we are :

 

My "Magic-Summon friend" is now hesitated between, by order of preference :

- Jacob Lynch Dark bet :  He is wondering if he can play only with those 4 boxes with him : "Lynch core box + Dark dealings + Friendly faces + Bargins made" and stay competitive? (He wants to keep the main aesthetic of his band as the asian theme of the ten thunders versatiles won't fit at all)

- Kaeris 1 and 2 : Same question than above, he wants to keep the "fire minis only" aesthetic, so : "Kaeris core box + Embrace the ember + Burning bridges + Carlos Vasquez" and stay competitive?

- Hamelin 1 and 2 : Again, same question than above, he wants to keep the "rat minis only" aesthetic: "Hamelin core box + They all fall down + Brotherhood of the rats + Tainted filth" and stay competitive?

 

My "Gunner" friend is now hesitated between, by order of preference :

- Cooper 1 and 2: He wants to know if he has to play the Malosaurus Rex to stay competitive, because he really doesn't like the mini.

- Dashel 1 and 2 : He wants to know if he can play mostly a gunline with him, as Dashel 2 is a close combat missile?

- Parker Barrows 1 and 2 : He wants to know if he can play a "cow boy and zombie cow boy only theme" and stay competitive, with some "Bandidos", "Dead Outlaws" and any miniature that is about far west.

 

Sorry for all of those questions, but as it is a huge investments in euros, they want to be sure of their choice

[Maniacal_cackle]

One suggestion from the other thread is to try-before-you-buy. You can play on Vassal to try the crews before you buy them, if your friends are into online play

7 hours ago, Arko said:

Gameplay wise, one of my friend likes :

- Everything that is magic related, especially ranged spells, summonning monsters etc...,

- Having a well rounded list, with a bit of range spells, a bit of close combat, a bit of tanking, a bit of everything if possible. He doesn't like "one dimensional" gameplay,

- Movement tricks like teleportation, miniature who can move again, and all those kind of stuff.

This just screams Dreamer to me. Summoning, ranged spells like twist reality, monster theme, etc.

Mechanically, it is a very well-rounded crew, with a mix of medium range attacks and close combat. It is far from One-Dimensional, with constantly shifting options and very fun. A bit expensive to collect (You need 3-4 boxes + title box IMO).

As a followup, I also suggest Neverborn Zoraida. She has a TON of movement shenanigans. With her obey mechanic, she can do basically anything. She's got other attacks like the super powerful Hex.

Collecting all of Zoraida is a huge pain, but I'd suggest the following for a decent all-rounder list:

• Zoraida (and her doll)
• One of Bad Juju/Kurgan/First Mate
• Mysterious Emissary
• Widow weaver (to summon Stitched Together)
• Silurid with ancient pact
• Silurid with ancient pact or Serena Bowman

As you can see, if you collect Zoraida this way, you have a lot of overlap with Dreamer. You'd need Dreamer models, Zoraida core box, mysterious emissary, and a silurid box (potentially converting one to First Mate as he is a nightmare to buy).

So I think your friend may really enjoy these Neverborn crews, although as others have said, Arcanists really have that magic feel so may also be appropriate.

7 hours ago, Arko said:

The other one likes :

- Guns, pistols, rifles, everything that can shoot bullets, he likes range oriented gameplay,

- Fast miniatures and/or movement tricks like my other friend,

- Conditions tokens

- He likes dirty tricks, so anything that can make his opponent a living hell and play with his ressources (like the cards for example)

There's lots of things to suggest here, but here's a wild consideration:

Parker + Hamelin?

Parker meets the shooting criteria better than most crews in the game. Not only do they use guns, but they also have Run and Gun which really turns gun threat ranges online. Being able to charge and shoot is huge. For combining movement tricks and shooting, no other crew trumps Parker.

Hamelin on the other hand doesn't deliver on guns and speed, but uses blight tokens (technically not a condition as conditions don't use tokens, but I think this is what you're after) to just make people miserable. Some VERY dirty tricks like activation control with rats or using Hamelin to cancel triggers. Your opponents will go "your crew can do WHAT???" a lot.

Both of these keywords share Benny (who is super good with Parker 2 and Hamelin 1), so there's some model crossover too

Von Schill from the same faction may also suit their style of play.

Otherwise, Guild matches the gun considerations, but they are REALLY poor on the movement front. They're more zone control - they choose a section of the board that is there's, and they control it (with guns or other brutality). Decent level of dirty tricks spread around the faction. If I had to recommend a crew here, I'd recommend Perdita 2 (although warning, she is a bit overpowered AND is called the Neverborn Hunter for a reason... Won't give fun games against Neverborn IMO).

I also wonder if Bayou Zoraida would be a good fit here... Really good at making people miserable and has access to some sweet guns + obeys.

But yeah if you can, just hop online and do some testing

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, regarding Parker (and really most crews in general), the cheap models are not generally considered good.

If you see models in the 5-6 stone range, it'll be pretty rare that you have more than one in a competitive list

There's exceptions of course (triple Botanists have absolutely destroyed some competitive events), but as a general rule cheap models aren't good this edition. So don't get *too* excited about running lots of them. Most lists won't have too many.

That's for a competitive level, of course. In casual games you can make anything work

[dannydb]

so a good list based upon the restrictions mentioned for kaeris would be

 New Kaeris Crew (Arcanists)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Kaeris
Totem(s):
  Eternal Flame
Hires:
  The Firestarter
  Carlos Vasquez
  Elijah Borgmann
    Soulstone Cache
  Fire Golem
  Firebranded
    Magical Training

essentially giving you two schemers in carlos and fire starter, two tanks with Elijah and golem, a healer with the Firebranded, and kaeris herself is an allrounder#

for kaeris 2 you might consider swapping Firestarter for deacon?

 

if your friend was willing to soften the theme restrictions slightly, the arcane emissary and the mech rider are both models with a lot of flame on them that that can match with kaeris play style quite a lot. the emissary is a beat stick with a lot of pushes which kaeris likes as more pushes means more triggers of her pyre markers, where as the rider works quite well with Elijah as hes quite a static model who can get left behind in a kaeris crew on occasion. the rider also adds some scheme marker dropping which is something the crew isn't amazing at, while also gives some card draw to supplement the card manipulation from blaze of glory  

[Arko]

@Maniacal_cackle : Thanks for all the informations !

About my "Magic-summon" friend, You replied to me about Lynch in the other thread, so Lynch is out unfortunately, which is a shame because he was his favourite visually, but having to add some asian theme minis in his victorian english theme is a big no-no for him.

Dreamer was one of his main pick , but the problem is, I play Neverborn with Pandora myself, and we wanted to avoid playing the same faction if possible. But now that Lynch is out, Dreamer makes a come back.

As for Zoraida, he is not a super fan of the model range, so that is not really an option for him, but thanks anyway

 

As for my "Gunner" friend, he heard very bad things about Parker 1 and 2 in general, they seem to struggle a lot, and even if he likes the models, he doesn't want to play something that will struggle in most of scenarios. Hamelin is not his thing, but could be for my "Magic-summon" friend.

He also discovered by reading the cards that Cooper can shoot the runaways, who themselves can escape or call for help and trigger free shots from Cooper, which he found hilarious, so he is his main pick right now.

 

@dannydb : Thanks for that, and yes both Arcane emisary and the mech rider are ok for him, as he can paint flames on them

 

So here we are now :

 

- Magic friend, by order of preference :

1. Hamelin 2 (he needs to know a bit more about him, he knows that he spread plague and that he can summon rats but that is it). Also, like with Lynch, he wants to know if he can keep the "full rat minis" theme (so basically all of hamelin and rats boxes + Benny)

2. Dreamer (even if that means that we will both play Neverborn)

3. Kaeris

 

- Gunner friend :

1. Cooper as long as he doesn't have to play Malosaurus Rex to stay competitive. If he doesn't have to, he will go Cooper 100%

2. Dashel 2 if COoper needs the Malosaurus Rex

[Maniacal_cackle]

One comment I'll put out there is that I wouldn't put *too* much stock into what people say about relative strengths of masters.

Like people were down on Parker 2, until Azahul took down the world champion with him. Or people were down on Marcus and Lucius in Neverborn, so I podiumed world Series events with both of them. Etc. 

Especially if looking at tier lists, take them with several grains of salt xD

[Adran]

21 hours ago, Arko said:

 

Gameplay wise, one of my friend likes :

- Everything that is magic related, especially ranged spells, summonning monsters etc...,

- Having a well rounded list, with a bit of range spells, a bit of close combat, a bit of tanking, a bit of everything if possible. He doesn't like "one dimensional" gameplay,

- Movement tricks like teleportation, miniature who can move again, and all those kind of stuff.

Firstly, magic isn't a malifaux game play style, it's more of a theme. I don't think there is anything that is uniquely magic. For models which summon monsters you also get models which just call for help ( Dashel and Sommer), and the rules are the same. *( it'd still a valid way to choose, but its not gameplay...). 

Most crews are fairly rounded. You can push them in a certain way, but none are forced to be 1 dimensional. That said attacks with greater than 6" range are not always common, and some factions are almost defined by their lack of them ( ressers and neverborn) or their abundance of them ( Guild, outcast and bayou). 

 

When you talk about staying competitive, it depends on what you mean. They are unlikely to win the UK nationals or the gencon tyrant with only part of 1 keyword, but they can go into any game with a reasonable chance to win. So sticking to a smaller section of available models probably won't matter if it's the 3 of you playing each other ( and if it does matter to the extent you often want to hire a set out of keyword model you can probably do some modelling work to make it fit the theme). 

So you can play lynch with no Asian models ( he's more southern America gentleman than English gentleman) and generally do fine. Likewise you can play well with just rat based models.

The best example I can think of is I play 5 aside with my friends. I use a cheap pair of trainers, and it doesn't matter. I could buy a to of the range set of boots for it, but my skill level means its not going to really make much difference to my game. You find a professional footballer and the difference is probably going to be visable ( but they also would out play my mates if they were wearing the cheap trainers anyway). 

 

[Arko]

@Maniacal_cackle : Well yes of course, that said, it could give a first idea about what should pick a beginner or not. I am sure that any good player can win a tournament with any Masters, but as it will be my friend's first masters, maybe choosing a Master that is at least "good" would be better for them

I am going to ask more informations about Hamelin and Cooper in the Faction forums, and we will be (hopefuly and finally) there for my friends 😅

 

@Adran : You're right, I should have been more specific about what I was talking about when I said "competitive". We all come from other games (skirmish and big armies ones), and we all played competitively, and by that I mean we did lots of tournaments in our country.

So, no, it will not just be games between the 3 of us, we plan to go in tournaments as soon as we think we are ready for it, hence all the questions I ask

That said, we also love painting minis and visually have a strong theme on the board, basically we are tryng to find a compromise between a crew that is visually appealing to our eyes but also stay competitive.

Thats is why I asked about Jacob Lynch, as we wonder why he is in the ten thunders in the first place when visually he should be in the neverborn, but I am sure there is a lore reason for that (we didn't get into the lore yet).

 

Now, for my magic friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments with a full rat theme with hamelin, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick the Dreamer.

For my gunner friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments without the malosaurus rex with Cooper, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick Dashel 2.

[Azahul]

41 minutes ago, Arko said:

As for my "Gunner" friend, he heard very bad things about Parker 1 and 2 in general, they seem to struggle a lot, and even if he likes the models, he doesn't want to play something that will struggle in most of scenarios.

 

For what it's worth I will happily confirm that Parker2 at the very least is actually quite good But it sounds like your friend has moved on to Cooper, so all good on that front.

[Corn]

2 hours ago, Arko said:

Thats is why I asked about Jacob Lynch, as we wonder why he is in the ten thunders in the first place when visually he should be in the neverborn, but I am sure there is a lore reason for that (we didn't get into the lore yet).

...

Now, for my magic friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments with a full rat theme with hamelin, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick the Dreamer.

For my gunner friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments without the malosaurus rex with Cooper, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick Dashel 2.

Jacob Lynch used to be in the Neverborn.  On release way back at the tail end of 1.5, 10T was released as a "dual faction" faction, with a back story around infiltrating the other factions.  Lynch was Neverborn, Misaki was Outcast, McCabe was Guild, Mei was Arcanists, and Yan Lo was Ressers (and early in M2E Brewmaster was dual faction with Gremlins).  As the game has developed, TT has gotten more of their own unique identity, and gained Masters that aren't dual faction, and some of the masters that were dual faction lost that- notably Lynch and Misaki becoming exclusively TT.  It is what it is.

One thing to note is that Hamelin is a very difficult master to play in a tournament setting.  Hamelin is good, but it is very difficult to play quickly because you have an unholy trifecta of a lot of conditions to track, a lot of strategic planning (positioning, activation order, control abilities), and a large number of models that are often changing form and replacing with other models.   Add time constraints that are inherent to tournament rounds and you have a recipe for disaster- in my own experience with tournaments, you can play a hoard army or you can play a thinking army, but trying to do both is rough.  

With respect to tournaments, I'd definitely recommend checking out some of the youtube content / tier lists.  The Danger Planet, has been doing a collab with Goonhammer and Badfaux Haku where they rate all of the Masters competitively and talk about why they are placing them there.  Its interesting conversation and worth checking out.  

One thing to note with building "competitive" lists though, is that it can be somewhat of a moving target.  New models get released, new masters get released, errata gets released and nerfs some of the biggest offenders.  Its often better to stick with the faction that draws you in the most, building a competitive crew from there, then start expanding into different masters in that faction.  Puts you in a bit better position to pivot if the meta starts to change, and you can often use some of the same models in both crews (like Guild and the Pale Rider).   So you have someone dangling between Explorers and Guild, and someone dangling between Outcasts and Neverborn.  I would consider trying to pick two masters in the same faction, so if your friend collects both they have a bit more flexibility.   Maybe consider Leveticus or Jack Daw instead of Dreamer?  Maybe consider Perdita instead of Cooper (if he prefers Guild), or Basse instead of Dashel (if he prefers Explorers, Basse is also dual faction guild so he is a good master for someone on the fence between the two factions).  

 

 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Arko said:

@Maniacal_cackle : Well yes of course, that said, it could give a first idea about what should pick a beginner or not. I am sure that any good player can win a tournament with any Masters, but as it will be my friend's first masters, maybe choosing a Master that is at least "good" would be better for them

I am going to ask more informations about Hamelin and Cooper in the Faction forums, and we will be (hopefuly and finally) there for my friends 😅

 

@Adran : You're right, I should have been more specific about what I was talking about when I said "competitive". We all come from other games (skirmish and big armies ones), and we all played competitively, and by that I mean we did lots of tournaments in our country.

So, no, it will not just be games between the 3 of us, we plan to go in tournaments as soon as we think we are ready for it, hence all the questions I ask

That said, we also love painting minis and visually have a strong theme on the board, basically we are tryng to find a compromise between a crew that is visually appealing to our eyes but also stay competitive.

Thats is why I asked about Jacob Lynch, as we wonder why he is in the ten thunders in the first place when visually he should be in the neverborn, but I am sure there is a lore reason for that (we didn't get into the lore yet).

 

Now, for my magic friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments with a full rat theme with hamelin, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick the Dreamer.

For my gunner friend, as soon as he knows that he can go in tournaments without the malosaurus rex with Cooper, he will pick him, otherwise he will pick Dashel 2.

For what its worth Lynch used to be a dual faction, Neverborn/Ten thunders, because basically both factions were blackmailing him to run the Honeypot for them, but for various plot reasons, the Hungering Darkness fell out with the powers that be in Neverborn, and so he left the neverborn faction, and is now just being used by the Ten Thunders as a front to run the honeypot. 

The difference between a 'bad' master and a 'good' master is not very much in actual competitive status, but very few keywords will threaten the very top tables of the competitive game only by using their keywords, but they are certainly capable of getting more wins than loses. 

I'm not sure how tight you count a full rat theme list, if you are just using rats, rat kings and winged plagues, then no, but using nix and the wretch and Benny will still count for you then you can take it to an event and do well (although as others mentioned a side problem with Hamlin for some people is that he can be time intensive to run. He doesn't have to be and you can most certainly play him and fully finish games in tournament time scales, but he can be a harder master to reach that understanding with than others). You may find things do go more consistently if you bring some out of keyword models to have solid obeys for when your opponent doesn't give you good options, but its not essential. 

You certainly don't need Rex for Apex. It does open up options, and provide answers to some questions (1 good way to stop ranged crews is to engage them. If you can also have a strong melee threat then you deal with that easier. There are other ways to deal with it, so its not essential to have, but there are also other ways to try and stop shooting crews). 

Since he will need to Buy the Dashel core box for the totem, he will have Dashel 1 as an option if he goes for Dashel. You don't need to pick which version you use in each game until you know the name of the enemy master (although not which verstion), so I'd suggest try not to pigeon hole to just 1 title, especially if planning on attending events.  

(and for what its worth, in the UK, I would recommend attending events as soon as you know how to play, even if you expect to lose all the games, because one of the best ways to learn is to play lots of different people, and most people are very happy to help point out what went wrong and how you could have done better. I imagine that is very similar everywhere else. )

 

 

 

 

[Arko]

@Corn

Thanks for the explanation about Lynch.

Noted for Hamelin, now he likes complicated gameplay, so that doesn't fear him

Yes, we have checked all those videos aleady

Visually speaking, he really prefers the Dreamer over Leveticus or Jack Daw, and same for my other friend, he doesn't really like the aesthetic of Perdita or Basse, thanks for the ideas though !

 

@Adran

Shame that Lynch didn't stay in Neverborn, as their versatile fits way more the aesthetics of his crew

Ok so no matter what, versatiles or OOK models will be there if you're looking for top competitive, noted !

About the rat list, my friend wanted to play all the minis that are in the "Hamelin core box", "Brotherhood of the rat", "Tainted filth" and "They all fall down" but that is it. Now, he would need to know more about the possible other models that he should have, because just putting a rat on a base could easily give that mini a rat theme if it doesn't already have a strong theme like the ten thunders for example. So outside of the boxes I just mentioned, what would a Hamelin 1 or 2 need?

Very good for Cooper, so my Gunner friend has found his faction, thank you !

About the tournaments, yes, when i said "when we feel ready", I meant when we will know the rules and our factions well enough to finish a game on time.

 

So now, only my magic friend is hesitating, it will depend on the models Hamelin 1 and 2 would need in his band. If they don't have already a strong theme, he will just put a rat model on their base and that is it. Otherwise, he will play the Dreamer.

 

[Corn]

One thing to keep in mind for tournaments, is they are often single faction, as opposed to single master or keyword.  Obviously, GG3 has some exceptions to this, and an organizer could choose to run a single keyword tournament.  But the vast majority of tournaments require you to declare a faction, and you can play any master within that faction for each round of the tournament.  

What this means is that because certain masters are often a bit better at various strategies and schemes than other masters, you can give yourself a competitive edge by choosing the master who is best suited to the strategy and schemes at hand.  For example, a murder Master who excels into Cursed Objects may not be as effective into Carve a Path as a more control or interact oriented Master / crew.  

In a tournament setting, a player who collected 3 masters within the same faction is going to have a competitive edge over a player who collected 3 masters from different factions.   The single faction player will be able to choose the master / list they have that is best suited for the strategy and schemes in each round, while the other player will not be able to change master to best suit the strategy / schemes.  This competitive edge can be the difference between making a top table or getting edged out by a player of equal or even slightly lesser skill who can bring lists better suited to the strategy.  

This is mitigated to an extent by the overpowered S tier masters introduced in Malifaux Burns.  If you are playing Hoff2, Justice2, Nexus2, Yanlo2, etc you may be overpowered enough to just brute force through whatever.  But I would expect a heavy round of nerfs to a lot of the worst offenders so that won't be the case forever.  

You should always choose your first master based off aethetic and playstyle, but if you are competitive player, your should choose your second and third masters from the same faction as your first master... otherwise you are putting yourself at a disadvantage against players of equal skill to you in a tournament environment.