Changes for Alyce and Ashes and Dust

[KID55]

IMO, Mad Dog has even more problem with enagagement that Alyce, with 0 range he can be locked by almost anything. Yes you can move him with emissary but you not each time hire emyssary from start. Dog a very good model, but I don't think that he should be nerfed. He is main bandit damage dealer. All other (Sue, Parker1) not that effective. Gunslingers and Wokou are overpriced.

[Plaag]

11 minutes ago, KID55 said:

IMO, Mad Dog has even more problem with enagagement that Alyce, with 0 range he can be locked by almost anything. Yes you can move him with emissary but you not each time hire emyssary from start. Dog a very good model, but I don't think that he should be nerfed. He is main bandit damage dealer. All other (Sue, Parker1) not that effective. Gunslingers and Wokou are overpriced.

u suggest give dog divine charge?)

wyrd should remove built in trigger on his gun and gaining fast from marker

he is autopick in any outcasts crew

[KID55]

4 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u suggest give dog divine charge?)

wyrd should remove built in trigger on his gun and gaining fast from marker

he is autopick in any outcasts crew

I didn't said that he need buff, I said he shouldn't be nerfed.

[KID55]

OOK I took him only in Leveticus crew. Any other has their own good options.

[Thatguy]

15 minutes ago, Plaag said:

wyrd should remove built in trigger on his gun

I think I might go so far as to remove it completely. He'd still be a great model without the ability to delete armored units.

I'd be surprised if he made it though this errata unchanged.

[Azahul]

30 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think I might go so far as to remove it completely. He'd still be a great model without the ability to delete armored units.

I'd be surprised if he made it though this errata unchanged.

I'd be surprised if he were, honestly. After all they've had many errata opportunities to change him already and there are some far higher priorities now with all the Malifaux Burns content.

[Thatguy]

You might be right. I've got a pretty bad track record of predictions. I didn't think Som'er needed to be nerfed twice for example.

[Azahul]

To be fair part of my view is that I don't see Mad Dog as a problem model. I basically only run him in Keyword and he's basically exactly what a high cost beatstick model of his type should be, with clear strengths and very clear weaknesses. Not unusual in competitive play to see him get controlled or dealt with early enough to minimise his impact on the game. He wouldn't be close to my list of models that might see a nerf.

 

...buuut I'm conscious of the fact that not everyone agrees with me on that point. Maybe we'll continue to see Parker's crews get nerfed as unintentional collateral damage, like with the Wanted Criminal nerf.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the issue with Mad Dog is that he is so strong against armor that he sort of warps the game.

 But outcasts in general are so strong against armor that it is fine xD

If ressers got a mad dog I think that'd be a bigger problem.

[Azahul]

Even if Mad Dog got nerfed into the ground it does seem like a bold move to declare armour into Outcasts, yeah

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

I also agree that Mad Dog has clear weaknesses and shouldn't be nerfed.  I also say that out of pure desperation because I mostly run in keyword and I don't know what I would do if my anti-armor away.

 

If they nerf Mad Dog, please in the name of all that is holy take a look at the rest of the bandit keyword in the process.  

[Plaag]

just take 2 scavengers and dog in any outcasts crew

kill half the opponent band 1 turn

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

Look, I'm just saying that if we compare him to Rambo, or 80's Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's fine.  You could even say average.  You hear that, Wyrd?  Mad Dog is average... when compared to Rambo.

 

Plus, you could say it's the opponents fault for taking models against him.  It negligent.  Dangerous even!

[Axelst]

If Mad Dog with two Scavengers kill half the enemy crew turn 1, your opponent has messed up big time.

Mad Dog is scary against armor or tight groups, but 1v1 his damage output is nothing special for his cost, he's not particularly durable, and he needs support throughout the entire game to stay dangerous, both to avoid getting engaged and to get fast every turn.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Axelst said:

If Mad Dog with two Scavengers kill half the enemy crew turn 1, your opponent has messed up big time.

Mad Dog is scary against armor or tight groups, but 1v1 his damage output is nothing special for his cost, he's not particularly durable, and he needs support throughout the entire game to stay dangerous, both to avoid getting engaged and to get fast every turn.

even with 2 focuses mad dog can make 2-3 atacks ignoring cover with 2 blasts 3/4/5dmg

so hiting 2-3 targets per atack is normal for him

most of times u atack not hanch to give severe dmg and 2 blasts

its just nobrain game

just bad designed model

[Zebo]

Yea, a model with an 8" Ranged gun can hit reliably 2-3 targets with a weapon that can hit models in 2" AOE... 

 

Man, I really want to play against the same opponents than you. In my meta having models not stacked against enemys with blasts is no-brainer. 

 

But I suppose not everyone is the same. 

 

Anyways, I thought this post was to talk about Ashes & Dust and Alyce, not to complain about any other model you dislike. 

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yea, a model with an 8" Ranged gun can hit reliably 2-3 targets with a weapon that can hit models in 2" AOE... 

 

Man, I really want to play against the same opponents than you. In my meta having models not stacked against enemys with blasts is no-brainer. 

 

But I suppose not everyone is the same. 

 

Anyways, I thought this post was to talk about Ashes & Dust and Alyce, not to complain about any other model you dislike. 

man, i really can show u how to play mad dog

always open for vassal game)

u just dont know what are u talking abt

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yea, a model with an 8" Ranged gun can hit reliably 2-3 targets with a weapon that can hit models in 2" AOE... 

I know Plaag is a bit abrasive, but worth noting it is more like 13 inches with run and gun and potentially 6 inches apart with triggers xD

I do think Mad Dog has some distinct weaknesses, but also get why the Arcanist players hate him xD

[Liched]

Wait, why is Outcast considered to be good against armour? Is it on the random chance you’ll face Leveticus? 
 

There is 9, 10 with pride, models in the faction that can ignore armour in some way. One of them being analyse weakness and an ap trigger on Effigy. Another is a trigger on Viks secondary action. 

Ressers have 5.5 (if you count McM 2 since he can get any action)

By comparison 10T has at least 16 models capable of ignoring armor, 1 analyse and 1 upgrade that makes any model ignore armour in melee 

[Azahul]

26 minutes ago, Liched said:

Wait, why is Outcast considered to be good against armour? Is it on the random chance you’ll face Leveticus? 
 

There is 9, 10 with pride, models in the faction that can ignore armour in some way. One of them being analyse weakness and an ap trigger on Effigy. Another is a trigger on Viks secondary action. 

Ressers have 5.5 (if you count McM 2 since he can get any action)

By comparison 10T has at least 16 models capable of ignoring armor, 1 analyse and 1 upgrade that makes any model ignore armour in melee 

A lot of the models that ignore armour are all in different Keywords, are almost all good sources of anti-armour, on models you want to take anyway. Even the Analyse Weakness is an action from a 5 stone model who can't be cheated against, it's probably the best Analyse Weakness in the game.

 

The notable ones in my view are:

-Ronin in Mercenary

-Obedient Wretch in Plague

-Mad Dog in Bandit

-Arik in Freikorps

-Leveticus in Amalgam

 

Anyway, long story short if you face Outcasts they will more likely than not have declared a Keyword with an anti-armour effect without going out of their way.

[Plaag]

30 minutes ago, Liched said:

Wait, why is Outcast considered to be good against armour? Is it on the random chance you’ll face Leveticus? 
 

There is 9, 10 with pride, models in the faction that can ignore armour in some way. One of them being analyse weakness and an ap trigger on Effigy. Another is a trigger on Viks secondary action. 

Ressers have 5.5 (if you count McM 2 since he can get any action)

By comparison 10T has at least 16 models capable of ignoring armor, 1 analyse and 1 upgrade that makes any model ignore armour in melee 

if u will check-mad dog is maybe the only one model that can have free fast and built in ignoring armor with such a big range

also he can hit many targets with blasts

also most of outcasts crews have some move options to save dog from engagement

we can compare him to previous fuhatsu-u saw him in each crew

[Azahul]

Well, except that you don't

[Thatguy]

4 hours ago, Azahul said:

Anyway, long story short if you face Outcasts they will more likely than not have declared a Keyword with an anti-armour effect without going out of their way.

Yeah. And there's a good chance that you also see Mad Dog on top because he's one of the best shooters in the game and has anti armor if they suspect the opponent will bring any.

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I know Plaag is a bit abrasive, but worth noting it is more like 13 inches with run and gun and potentially 6 inches apart with triggers xD

He's pretty stellar as far as putting damage out and threat range. He rivals most beater masters for damage output, between being able to spread it out or focus on a hard target. I have had games where he got burst damage, and a moderate and managed to clip a couple extra models for 10 wounds. Not many models can put that sort of hurt out on a moderate flip.

Mad Dog also just eats many beaters in the same price range for breakfast. If the beater relies on armor, there's a good chance Mad Dog can delete them from half the board away. With fast he can walk and then charge for an 18" threat range, and a couple severes will kill about half the 10ss models in the game.

I've played against Mad Dog and had games where he didn't do much. But he didn't do much because I devoted 20 or 25 soul stones of models to try and deal with him. 

[Azahul]

7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. And there's a good chance that you also see Mad Dog on top because he's one of the best shooters in the game and has anti armor if they suspect the opponent will bring any.

To be honest a lot of the time I don't feel that an OOK Mad Dog is necessary. He's a good model... but also an 11 stone model who needs to be babysat by a model that can keep him out of melee and feed him scheme markers. The best option for that in faction is the Emissary, but now you've spent half your list when frankly a lot of Outcast Keywords straight up do not need that investment to handle armour. We have models like Rat Kings, Taelor, and Hannah who can often go in with positive damage flips and do so much work they're not that phased by -1 damage (you use your in Keyword anti armour for the Armour 2 targets), Keywords without anti armour like Zipp and Daw still do fine against armour in my experience thanks to plentiful sources of ping damage, and the only Keyword largely bereft on both fronts is Tara and I've never had trouble handling armour with an all Keyword Tara crew. Killing isn't really your objective there.

I've said in the past that I only hire Mad Dog OOK for anti-armour when my opponent declares Hoffman but honestly I haven't even done that the last few times.

[Plaag]

7 hours ago, Azahul said:

To be honest a lot of the time I don't feel that an OOK Mad Dog is necessary. He's a good model... but also an 11 stone model who needs to be babysat by a model that can keep him out of melee and feed him scheme markers. The best option for that in faction is the Emissary, but now you've spent half your list when frankly a lot of Outcast Keywords straight up do not need that investment to handle armour. We have models like Rat Kings, Taelor, and Hannah who can often go in with positive damage flips and do so much work they're not that phased by -1 damage (you use your in Keyword anti armour for the Armour 2 targets), Keywords without anti armour like Zipp and Daw still do fine against armour in my experience thanks to plentiful sources of ping damage, and the only Keyword largely bereft on both fronts is Tara and I've never had trouble handling armour with an all Keyword Tara crew. Killing isn't really your objective there.

I've said in the past that I only hire Mad Dog OOK for anti-armour when my opponent declares Hoffman but honestly I haven't even done that the last few times.

as one "smart" man said:"model is broken only if u hire it"