Changes for Alyce and Ashes and Dust

[KID55]

14 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Direct comparisons to Mad Dog have been made.

That was 4 days ago. If I talk about cost that doesn't means that I compare her to Mad Dog each time. For 17 SS I can take 3 Nekropunks that probably will be more profitable in current GG.

 

16 minutes ago, Azahul said:

And the Brawler isn't personal support for Alyce. He's a reasonably tanky brawler who can generate Irreducible damage attacks from Leveticus as easily as he can Min 3 shots from Alyce. He brings condition removal which post-nerf Leveticus really does want. He gets you extra mobility on whichever model you have that needs it, and is a source of Stunned for the crew.

Ok, here I agreed.

 

17 minutes ago, Azahul said:

And Mad Dog absolutely needs another model to babysit him, otherwise he gets engaged rapidly begins to lose effectiveness.

Yes but Parker also can move him.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Sure. I do too. What I was saying was that a benefit to Alyce fighting at close range is that Cover and Concealment become much easier to mitigate. If your opponent is in the teeth of your crew and you pull Alyce out of melee with a Brawler or a Scavenger and she activates and starts shooting at a model within 3" of her, odds are you've been able to arrange a totally clear line of sight.

I got you wrong here at first, sorry. In this case yes, you right.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, KID55 said:

That was 4 days ago. If I talk about cost that doesn't means that I compare her to Mad Dog each time. For 17 SS I can take 3 Nekropunks that probably will be more profitable in current GG.

I'm not sure why it matters how many days it's been. My point was merely that if you have compare her to Mad Dog she has very similar weak points, but it's not really any harder to cover them relative to her cost.

[Zebo]

Not sure how Alyce has become from Mv-6 is superstrong and need nerf to mv-4 is superbad, she needs mv-5 + ignore FF/Concealing/cover.

Still don't own amalgam crew, so have no experience with her, but I would love to see Von Schill recovering his old gun, you know, the one that Alyce has. 

[Azahul]

Von Schill's only competition for best Master in Outcasts is Tara, he doesn't need a min 3 gun 😄

[KID55]

8 hours ago, Zebo said:

Not sure how Alyce has become from Mv-6 is superstrong and need nerf to mv-4 is superbad

She was not superstrong. She was normal. Current GG require a lot of movemrnt here and there. When she was not albe to shoot effectevely because of consealment/cover/friendly fire she had another option - reposition for better shooting point or run and do something for scheme or strategy. Because of mv 6. That's a lot. Now she can't.

[Adran]

52 minutes ago, KID55 said:

She was not superstrong. She was normal. Current GG require a lot of movemrnt here and there. When she was not albe to shoot effectevely because of consealment/cover/friendly fire she had another option - reposition for better shooting point or run and do something for scheme or strategy. Because of mv 6. That's a lot. Now she can't.

the problem maybe you just have a different view of normal to wyrd and other people. The fact she was changed from mv 6 suggests that it was too good from wyrd view point.

Remember gg change, so sometime being bad in a current gg setting is not enough to warrant an errata if a model is likely to be fine as is in a different gg. 

 

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

I think Rusty should go to M5.  6 was too much, 4 is to little.  She either needs a baby sitter every game, servant of dark powers, or just decides to work as a back field anti-schemer.  I think she is otherwise fine as is.  Yes, she's no Mad Dog, but so aren't a lot of models.

 

I actually quite like Ashes.  I throw him at models I know are a considerable threat and want to slow them down for a while.  And if he survives the encounter, he is still a decent schemer purely as a result of M7.  I like him on the flanks, and competes with most models running up the side of the board.

 

I disagree that he never gets to use his bonus action.  Levi's crew consists almost entirely of constructs, many of which will die throughout the game, leaving scrap markers for him to make use of.  And if your facing an enemy that also consists of constructs, that just makes it doubly so.

 

Is he what he used to be?  No.  But he is by no means a slouch.  He is a good fast moving harasser, that can deal out damage when he really needs to.  And he can jump to the other side of the board without notice in the later turns of the game, and even give you an abomination from time to time.

 

As far as I am concerned, him being able to come back to life is just the gravy on top.

 

I think Deso engines could use a slight boost.  I would consider giving them either Df4 or M6.  Giving them both would probably be a bit much because at the end of the day they can crater just about anything if they get to them with full health.

 

[TeddyBear]

I have tried to propose it many times; maybe this doesn't make any sense, yet it doesn't seem too excessive to me: if played inkeyword ashes & dust it should have a bonus action that allows self-killing. Also it should be the only model that when reformed, it doesn't get summoning token. This was the "original concept" of a&d...

[Burnin4tor]

2 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

I have tried to propose it many times; maybe this doesn't make any sense, yet it doesn't seem too excessive to me: if played inkeyword ashes & dust it should have a bonus action that allows self-killing. Also it should be the only model that when reformed, it doesn't get summoning token. This was the "original concept" of a&d...

I don’t know if it needs the self killing ability - but I like the idea of no summon tokens if it’s in an amalgam crew… would solve a lot of trouble with it! Would be nice if Hamelins rats had a similar rule too.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think having a summon that doesn't gain a summon token would be a big problem mechanically.

It'd be better to have it so that when the summon reaches the ashen core, the ashen core gets replaced and the summon dies.

This way you still get the summon token on the summon, but the Ashes and Dust/Ashen Core just go through replace mechanics over and over and never involve a summon token.

[Azahul]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think having a summon that doesn't gain a summon token would be a big problem mechanically.

It'd be better to have it so that when the summon reaches the ashen core, the ashen core gets replaced and the summon dies.

This way you still get the summon token on the summon, but the Ashes and Dust/Ashen Core just go through replace mechanics over and over and never involve a summon token.

Yeah, I like that idea. Removing the Dust Storm from the Replace would be enough to make me happy.

 

Hamelin's rats don't need a similar mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Hamelin to go back to actually being a good Symbols of Authority Master due to his ability to manufacture a fast Rat King in the middle of the table and shoot it off into the distance, but he doesn't deserve that option any more or less than any summon Master.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

Yeah, I like that idea. Removing the Dust Storm from the Replace would be enough to make me happy.

 

Hamelin's rats don't need a similar mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Hamelin to go back to actually being a good Symbols of Authority Master due to his ability to manufacture a fast Rat King in the middle of the table and shoot it off into the distance, but he doesn't deserve that option any more or less than any summon Master.

I'd say he deserves it far less than say somer, who had the tech to make summons interact xD

Or kirai1 who is sorta designed with it in mind.

[Azahul]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'd say he deserves it far less than say somer, who had the tech to make summons interact xD

Or kirai1 who is sorta designed with it in kind.

Haha, Somer can still Obey his Totems! Totally fine.

 

Not sure I agree that Kirai leant that way more than the Plague Keyword though. Hamelin's got summons with Don't Mind Me, his crew was definitely originally designed with the idea that he'd be scoring with his summons to a fair degree.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think having a summon that doesn't gain a summon token would be a big problem mechanically.

It'd be better to have it so that when the summon reaches the ashen core, the ashen core gets replaced and the summon dies.

This way you still get the summon token on the summon, but the Ashes and Dust/Ashen Core just go through replace mechanics over and over and never involve a summon token.

Alternatively you could change the initial replace to replace ashes and dust with both the core and the storm. That would be potentially a stronger way than making the core kill the storm to let it replace. ( as the storm could go and do things in its own and wouldn't be subject to exorcism etc. 

I'm not sure making it different if the leader is amalgam is worth the card space, unless this would put it firmly in a super friends situation ( I can't remember it being hugely popular before the summon change, but I could easily just have forgotten). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

Alternatively you could change the initial replace to replace ashes and dust with both the core and the storm. That would be potentially a stronger way than making the core kill the storm to let it replace. ( as the storm could go and do things in its own and wouldn't be subject to exorcism etc. 

I'm not sure making it different if the leader is amalgam is worth the card space, unless this would put it firmly in a super friends situation ( I can't remember it being hugely popular before the summon change, but I could easily just have forgotten). 

Replace must be in base contact, so it'd completely alter the dynamic of the model (since it is supposed to start far apart so it has to work to reform).

You could then have it teleport across the table, but if anything stopped the place it could lead to wonky results.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Replace must be in base contact, so it'd completely alter the dynamic of the model (since it is supposed to start far apart so it has to work to reform).

You could then have it teleport across the table, but if anything stopped the place it could lead to wonky results.

I had expected it to then teleport to a board edge.

It could cause some problems but you could make the heal on the storm conditional on the place, and then it is only really subject to the same wonky results as now. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

I had expected it to then teleport to a board edge.

It could cause some problems but you could make the heal on the storm conditional on the place, and then it is only really subject to the same wonky results as now. 

Yeah that works then!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although I wouldn't look forward to the conversation whether the ashes and dust could move the staggered storm xD

[im_open_to_suggestions]

Personally i hate playing against A&D.  and having recently played against someone playing horseman Levi using the Mech to drop scrap markers for A&D to zoop to i hate it even more

[Zebo]

It would be as easy as giving Dust Storm some ability like

Parts of the Whole: This model may not be hired. After this model is Summoned, remove any Summon Tokens from it. 

It keeps being a 9ss scheme runner hard to kill but not very reliable at fighting. 

By now, he's a 9ss scheme runner stupidly easy to "kill" (Only 8 wounds no defensive tech, it doesn't really dies, but stops scoring). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Part of the reason they were too strong was because they could teleport a schemer across the map. Doing something like teleporting across the map and picking up a symbol could be too trivial.

Also this interferes with abilities like exorcism affecting the model, or the jury, etc. 

Also has weird results for Let them Bleed and similar schemes (whoops, hit the model too hard now I can't score let them bleed).

So if he did get a change, you'd to be careful to make sure the storm wasn't just getting all these scoring tricks that summons aren't supposed to get.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Part of the reason they were too strong was because they could teleport a schemer across the map. Doing something like teleporting across the map and picking up a symbol could be too trivial.

Also this interferes with abilities like exorcism affecting the model, or the jury, etc. 

Also has weird results for Let them Bleed and similar schemes (whoops, hit the model too hard now I can't score let them bleed).

So if he did get a change, you'd to be careful to make sure the storm wasn't just getting all these scoring tricks that summons aren't supposed to get.

Isn't he already immune to Let Them Bleed if you hit him so hard the Demise procs? Since the Ashen Core at Cost 2 probably isn't going to matter.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

Isn't he already immune to Let Them Bleed if you hit him so hard the Demise procs? Since the Ashen Core at Cost 2 probably isn't going to matter.

I mean the second point is automatically blocked by the demise as you get two full health models.

But was just one example of why the rules are designed for summons to have summon tokens.

There's no good reason for the summon to skip the token (just for the Ashes and Dust to not have a token).

[Azahul]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I mean the second point is automatically blocked by the demise as you get two full health models.

But was just one example of why the rules are designed for summons to have summon tokens.

There's no good reason for the summon to skip the token (just for the Ashes and Dust to not have a token).

Oh, yeah. I agree with that.

[Zebo]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

There's no good reason for the summon to skip the token (just for the Ashes and Dust to not have a token).

It's a 9ss scheme runner designed to work with the demise shenanigan. That's the good reason to skip the summon token. 

9ss

8wd

No defensive tech. 

Very situational bonus action. 

They lowered its damage output because it was too high for a it's cost. Which was understandable. It became a situational hire. It wasn't included in most of the list before the summon token nerf. 

Now it's even worse than before. 

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Part of the reason they were too strong was because they could teleport a schemer across the map.

Soulstone Miner does exactly that with a 30% discount. 

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Doing something like teleporting across the map and picking up a symbol could be too trivial

It's still a summoned model, so still can't do this the same turn it appears.