Smuggler Colette

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I guess the question is why. Why isn't Colette both where the Colette model is and where the target of RP is?
It seems to me Colette would be effected by engagement and auras as if she were in both positions. If you don't consider the marker's location to count, how could you draw range and LoS from it?

Colette doesn’t draw range and LoS from a marker, she doesn’t have an Ice Mirror ability. Colette draws range and LoS from herself as if she existed at the location of the marker instead of her current position.

[eddy]

19 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The big thing in my mind is that the ability says to use Colette’s stat card, so her current health definitely applies to the marker while RP is resolving.

But conditions are definitly not part of stat card. Not sure about current hp. What is stat card is defined on 4th page of rulebook. Its soooo mesy. They better post faq right after gencon or she will be impossible to play

[eddy]

1 minute ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Colette doesn’t draw range and LoS from a marker, she doesn’t have an Ice Mirror ability. Colette draws range and LoS from herself as if she existed at the location of the marker instead of her current position

Colett is not drawing range at all. Its decoy doing action. Question is are decoys exacly like Collet separate beeings or are they actual Collet bilocating

[Thatguy]

15 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Colette doesn’t draw range and LoS from a marker, she doesn’t have an Ice Mirror ability. Colette draws range and LoS from herself as if she existed at the location of the marker instead of her current position.

Then why would she count as in the position for range and LoS, but not auras and engagement? 

[Thatguy]

16 minutes ago, eddy said:

Its soooo mesy

Agreed. I feel like it really should have used the Ice Mirror/Nexus wording or just been a teleport action.

I'm not sure what RP was as meant to gain as an ability by using the current unprecedented wording. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Then why would she count as in the position for range and LoS, but not auras and engagement? 

She would count for auras and engagement that affect her position at the marker’s position, not her non-marker position. The action takes place at the marker’s location, not the model’s non-marker/actual location like Ice Mirror, so the action faces all restrictions, abilities, and effects that are relevant to Colette’s location at the marker’s location.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Agreed. I feel like it really should have used the Ice Mirror/Nexus wording or just been a teleport action.

I'm not sure what RP was as meant to gain as an ability by using the current unprecedented wording. 

I think it was meant to gain the ability to interact at range through Doves regardless of Colette being engaged. This Colette to me has a much stronger reliance on Doves staying alive in order to scheme through them.

[Thatguy]

15 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The action takes place at the marker’s location, not the model’s non-marker/actual location like Ice Mirror, so the action faces all restrictions, abilities, and effects that are relevant to Colette’s location at the marker’s location.

Okay. I think I've got you.
I interpreted it as being bilocated still, because there's no part of the action that states that non-marker Colette stops being Colette.
A clearer wording like: "This model may take an action as if she were in that location instead of it's own" might clear things up a lot.

13 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I think it was meant to gain the ability to interact at range through Doves regardless of Colette being engaged.

Wouldn't she be able to do that no matter what thanks to Don't Mind Me?

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

Okay. I think I've got you.
I interpreted it as being bilocated still, because there's no part of the action that states that non-marker Colette stops being Colette.
A clearer wording like: "This model may take an action as if she were in that location instead of it's own" might clear things up a lot.

Wouldn't she be able to do that no matter what thanks to Don't Mind Me?

 

Definitely, focused so much on the back of the card I forgot about the front of the card. Gives even greater importance than I initially realized to keeping Doves alive to interact through them, since the opponent can’t just engage them to turn off an Interact. 

[Jinn]

34 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

She would count for auras and engagement that affect her position at the marker’s position, not her non-marker position. The action takes place at the marker’s location, not the model’s non-marker/actual location like Ice Mirror, so the action faces all restrictions, abilities, and effects that are relevant to Colette’s location at the marker’s location.

The issue is that if both the decoy and Colette are treated as the same model (meaning the decoy's wounds being lowered is the same as Colette's being lowered, or the "two way street" interpretation) then if "one" of them is engaged it means that the singular model that both of them are representing satisfies the rules requirements of being engaged. If they aren't being treated as separate models (by, for example, the decoy just being a snapshot copy of Colette at the time of taking the Routine Performance action, now in a completely new location, the "one way street" interpretation) then either one of them being engaged causes the singular model they represent to suffer the effects of engagement.

If Colette truly is in two places at once (thereby allowing them to share a wound pool and have things that affect the decoy directly affect Colette) then the general rules do not care which of the models that represent her are in a location for the purposes of binary effects like engagement and auras, they weren't designed for that sort of thing. Having binary positioning based effects be different for the Decoy and the real Colette seems incompatible with the two way street interpretation.

Please grace us with the FAQ we desire Wyrd.

25 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

A clearer wording like: "This model may take an action as if she were in that location instead of it's own" might clear things up a lot.

I'm guessing they iterated through a lot of different wordings while testing this and that's how they ended up with one that still left so many questions. This particular wording doesn't allow the marker to move when Colette walks/charges, which is a lot of the point of the ability. Honestly, if they release an FAQ that outlines exactly what the action is supposed to do, I can live with wording that isn't 100% clear because it seems really hard to fit in the space available on the card.

[eddy]

There is one more interpretation, simpliest one. Decoy just copy Collet stat card (no conditions, no other efects engagements etc. and does not transfer hazardous dmg, deftrigers etc. back to Collet)for duration of action and act totally separately. Only problem is once per activation summon. Rest works perfect with this interpretation

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

 

Wouldn't she be able to do that no matter what thanks to Don't Mind Me?

 

No, because ice mirror and similar effects don't allow base contact stuff (so you can't drop the scheme marker there, or pick up a strategy marker, etc).

Although there is the interpretation that insignificant prevents your from doing that anyway.

[dancater]

OK.

This is my interpretation, as plain as I can make it.

First, don't think of it as a two way street (I understand why you have), the risk is that implies a bifurcation, which opens the situation to confusion.

When Colette uses Routine Performance the targeted decoy/dove performs a General or Attack action as though it were this model (so as though it were Colette). This is the essence of the card wording.

So the decoy/dove does not activate, in a traditional sense, strictly speaking all it does is become a conduit for Colette to take an action during her (Colette's) activation. Like an Ice Pillar does not activate when it is used to arc a Ice Mirror action.

Now Colette has two game states.

1. Colette as a model, regardless of location or table state. She is limited in her once per turn effect, she has ongoing effects such as both positive and negative conditions and she has her wounds (as part of her stat card).
2. Colette as a game piece on the table, or off table if buried (but then she cannot activate and use this action so this is moot). Here Colette is located on the table and as a result is subject to table area of effects, including hazardous terrain, auras, engagement range and similar things. However, these are limited, they don't travel with Colette the model, if/when Colette moves she may enter new AOE's and leave others. She can walk out of an aura (no longer effected) into hazardous terrain (newly effected) while circling a enemy models 2"range (staying constantly within the range hence no change). [I'm sorry I am a graphics philistine I can't display this as a picture].

So when she uses Routine Performance a game temporal event happens. From the declaration of the Routine Performance till the completion of all the actions and reactions associated with it becomes a distinct in game temporal period.

In this temporal period Colette (the primary model) stays completely static, she performs the Routine Performance and does nothing else in and of herself. She as a model stays in the table place she occupies.

But.........

The targeted decoy/dove takes a General/Attack action as though it were Colette. 

So think of it as a temporal moment where there is one active Colette (quasi) and a theoretical Colette (true) who is a anchor for the event. There is only a single active model in the game, the quasi-Colette. There is never two models per se.

So in place of the targeted decoy/dove (it is treated as though it were Colette, not itself and Colette) is a quasi-Colette which exists only for the limited temporal moment of game time that is the duration of the General/Attack action initiated by Routine Performance. 

This quasi-Colette is, as the ability states, treated as the model Colette, it thus carries those ongoing effects and wounds which are attached to the true Colette, they are, for game purposes and in the temporal moment treated as the same model.

However, the quasi-Colette is located in a different place on the game table [where the decoy/dove it subsumed was (before the action commenced) and (at the end of the action) will later be]. The table AOE's which impact quasi-Colette are solely those which are applicable to the location quasi-Colette occupies (in this she is not, in any way "linked" to true Colette, they are for a moment of game time two co-existing but separate identical models).

Now true Colette's Routine Performance means that she becomes "silent" in game terms, for the duration of the action she now is not the relevant active model.

Quasi-Colette is the active model during Routine Performance. She is the "Colette" performing the General/Attack action.

So you resolve the quasi-Colette action accounting for what model related ongoing effects may apply (conditions) and for what AOE's may apply based on the location of the quasi-Colette model. So yes if true Colette was in hazardous terrain during her full activation she would be effected, and if the Routine Performance put a quasi-Colette into hazardous terrain [even the same terrain] then she would be effected as well - but only once quasi Colette is separate from the decoy/dove not co-existing.

Now quasi-Colette may, under limited circumstances (from hazardous terrain, some auras, Df/Wp triggers etc), be impacted from model related ongoing effects such as conditions or wounds (such as Perdita's Quick Draw). This is the negative of Routine Performance, the quasi-Colette is treated as though it were this model (true Colette), so for the temporal moment of Routine Performance the conditions and wounds quasi-Colette is afflicted with are treated as conditions and wounds for the true Colette. So be careful.

Then Routine Performance ends. Quasi-Colette ceases to be, the true Colette becomes a singular model (with all her conditions and wounds and located in her original position) and can continue with her activation (which may include another Routine Performance starting the whole chain again).

And, as I see it, done. Powerful but not game breaking, initially confusing but broken down in my head the sequence and relevant rules are pretty clear.       

[HomelessOne]

Definitely feels like you guys have been waaaay over-complicating this.

[dancater]

16 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

Definitely feels like you guys have been waaaay over-complicating this.

Best to do that now and sort it out. 

Because someone will do it at a game table at tournament, calling on a referee for adjudication. A referee who hopefully can use the results of this discussion, whatever form they take, to provide a reasoned answer supported by Wyrd clarification, or at least evidenced discussion and agreement here.

We got the time, we can think it out and discuss it, and we can, hopefully, reduce the chances of arguments and bad blood at a game table somewhere.

Besides its a fun discussion and looking into the intricate mechanics of this rule has familiarised me with other rules and interactions that, until now, I was less up to speed on. 

[Thatguy]

23 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

Definitely feels like you guys have been waaaay over-complicating this.

Can't be a good Arcanist without some Arcane rules exploits.

[Jordon]

Anyone with the book able to confirm if anything from Colette has changed/clarified? I'm doubtful given the time frame of the release.

[Moondog]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:17 PM, eddy said:

There is one more interpretation, simpliest one. Decoy just copy Collet stat card (no conditions, no other efects engagements etc. and does not transfer hazardous dmg, deftrigers etc. back to Collet)for duration of action and act totally separately. Only problem is once per activation summon. Rest works perfect with this interpretation

I agree with this one I think. There is nothing written to suggest the decoy marker is anything other than a decoy marker at any point. It says "target may take a general or attack action as though it were this model". That isn't saying you should treat the marker as Colette. To me it means imagine this marker can take a general or attack in the same way Colette could. Colette is still Colette and remains exactly where she is for all purposes. The decoy marker is never Colette. It's just something that does what Colette can do in terms of general and attack actions only. 

Some interesting questions though. What if the general action the decoy marker takes is "concentrate". If it's done on the dove as a decoy marker I assume the dove now has focused. If it's done on an actual created decoy marker I assume it's useless as a marker can't have focused. What about close-up magic trigger? I assume it's once per turn so if Colette has done then the decoy marker therefore can't declare it same turn.

[dancater]

58 minutes ago, Moondog said:

"target may take a general or attack action as though it were this model". That isn't saying you should treat the marker as Colette.

Yeah I partially disagree. I agree the marker does not "become" Colette. But 'as though it were this model' means you treat the marker as though it was Colette. It is not Colette, but it is treated as though it was Colette. For this reason Concentrate would work (although as you state a marker cannot have a condition, so as soon as the Routine Performance ends the condition slides off the decoy marker, it would have focus for the nebulous moment the marker is still treated as Colette, but that is pointless).

And yes, the close up magic trigger was critical in starting this discussion. In this interpretation the dove/decoy is treated as though it were Colette, so if Colette has used the once per turn trigger then she could not use it again this turn, by extension something treated as though it was Colette could not utilise the trigger either.

I have already stated, I think of the dove/decoy as an illusion of Colette, with all of the characteristics attached to the model itself. But critically not those effects which impact the real Colette based on her location on the table, the illusory Colette is in one location, the real Colette another and auras and AOEs impact each separately based on their respective locations.

[Caspergad]

I really don't understand how this thread ever came to five pages concerning mainly the decoy function and routine performance. The dove or token is still itself during the action, but uses Colettes card like it was copied unto it's own for the action. So if a dove acts, it uses colette's card for all stats, but if colette is distracted/focused/stunned and the dove is not, then the dove is not for this action either, if the dove is distracted, it will be distracted for this action. the dove won't have MV 7 and flight as it is using another card for the action. If it for some reason, say hazardous aura/ironside def trigger takes 5 damage during it's activation, it can take it as it has more HP than that during the action BUT it will still have 5 damage efter the action ends, and so it will die when the action ends... if the dove takes 5 burning during the action, it will still have 5 burning after the action, as it is NOT Colette and of course Colette won't have five 5 burning (she was never there)... I am sorry if I come across as rude, it is in no way my intention, but I really do not think the use of decoys/doves and routine performance are confusing or hard to apply in any way...

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Caspergad said:

I really don't understand how this thread ever came to five pages concerning mainly the decoy function and routine performance. The dove or token is still itself during the action, but uses Colettes card like it was copied unto it's own for the action. So if a dove acts, it uses colette's card for all stats, but if colette is distracted/focused/stunned and the dove is not, then the dove is not for this action either, if the dove is distracted, it will be distracted for this action. the dove won't have MV 7 and flight as it is using another card for the action. If it for some reason, say hazardous aura/ironside def trigger takes 5 damage during it's activation, it can take it as it has more HP than that during the action BUT it will still have 5 damage efter the action ends, and so it will die when the action ends... if the dove takes 5 burning during the action, it will still have 5 burning after the action, as it is NOT Colette and of course Colette won't have five 5 burning (she was never there)... I am sorry if I come across as rude, it is in no way my intention, but I really do not think the use of decoys/doves and routine performance are confusing or hard to apply in any way...

While that's a perfectly reasonable way to play it, the ability doesn't say "use colette's cards for all stats", it says "as if it were this model (and using this model's stat card)".

So if you do what the card actually says, a lot of confusing questions come up.

[Caspergad]

I disagree to the fact that your point changes the outcome and the questions you say arise. No model is replaced at any time with the wording on the card. Colette is never in anyway at another place. I am not here for another five pages, I just wanted to add,t hat I think it is quite straight to read and apply, and wanted designers to know it... model's been through testing, I think it's readable. You're entitle to your opinion, I just didn't want changes based on the length of the thread if there was a silent majority that thought it fine, so voiced my opinion...

[Jordon]

@Caspergad So with your interpretation, how does the Close-Up Magic trigger work when used via decoy? Can you get around the once per turn restriction? 

[Maladroit]

At the risk of duplicating content - this has been rattling around in my head for a few days. When something is treated as something else, it does not stop being the what it was originally (see nuMah and scheme/pit-trap markers) - I think. So in this case the decoy marker, while acting a though it was a Colette Model, it remains a decoy marker (this is the less problematic bit). I assume this means that one action it could take is remove destructible terrain to remove the marker and actualColette gets shielded 2. 

As a model it can gain and lose conditions and the pseudoColette can be damaged, but the marker cannot gain or lose conditions or be damaged so when the action finishes, the marker just returns to being a marker. However, as pseudoColette can be damaged, there is an edge case where pseudoColette takes so much damage that her health is reduced to zero. IMO pseudoColette starts with max health - the health she has is the health stat printed on her card (which would mean we would not count any health actualColette has taken). There are a couple of events that could cause this. Killing Joss with 10 power tokens, taking falling damage followed by killing the guild steward. In this case, the model would be removed - would this mean that we would remove the marker?

The more problematic issue (or maybe this is good) is that the Dove remains a Dove and is acting as pseudoColette at the same time. Implications - things like black-blood damages all models in LOS and range, pseudoColette and the Dove are both in LOS and range and both take damage, same with moving through hazardous resulting in damage/conditions, both pseudoColette and the Dove take damage, same for gaining conditions from hazardous aura's or terrain. That doesn't exactly clear up how defensive trigger damage will work, but I am leaning towards pseudoCollete taking the damage and reducing her health - I don't see what rule means that the Dove takes any damage - either during damage allocation or when the action ends. 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Maladroit
Clarification

[Maniacal_cackle]

There's also the weird issue of tracking damage on the marker.

If the marker is just a copy of colette (and not Colette herself), if it takes damage do you track it? Does it die if you use the same decoy three times and it takes lethal damage over the course of those three attacks?