Supreme Upgrade Lead-Lined Coat and problems other faction have with it feat. other upgrades

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Filox said:

Hunker Down is damn useless

That depends on what sort of crew you are playing, and how you use it. Chuck it on a model that is shooting, its not bad. put it in a Elite list where you can happily move models outside of their activation, and its not bad. 

How are you going to get through an armour+2 Shielded +2 Phiona ? (I guess lure, 😄 she can't just laugh it off). 

Its quite interesting to see you think an upgrade is over powered, but just change the order of the abilities and you rate it hugely differently. 

Would you still hire Lead lined coat as much if the abilities were altered in this way? Would the people you are adding it to change drastically (I guess would this make it a worthwhile upgrade on minions now, since to you the minions are getting value from getting the upgrade, as opposed to all its value being on the generic abilities that everyone gets)

[muraki]

17 minutes ago, Filox said:

19 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

hunker down. or another ability that i cant think of right now.

Hunker Down is damn useless

This is what I find difficult around trying to think up possibly replacements for existing mechanics (especially on upgrades) as there's a fine line between 'situational' and 'pretty much just taking up space'.

If you wanted to give the same kind of feel as hunker down, give either a 0 action to give shielded +1 to the model, or make it so it add a trigger like defensive reflexes to their attacks (like how expert marksman got armor piercing)... altho I'd probably choose a suit that wasn't rams in Guild ha.  Would still be pretty strong tho, as armor+1 shielded+1 is nothing to sneeze at (which adran mentions).

Honestly I think if this upgrade were to change, the devs would probably add something brand new to it.  As giving out shielded more easily makes for a real tough model for min 2 people to hit.  Giving something else 'i'm wearing an outfit' related like disguised is also tough cause those kind of abilities are pretty strong too.  If anything I'd prefer to give it something like unimpeded or something based around models dying in an aura (as arcanists / nb / explorers all have something like that on an upgrade) but I'm not sure how either of those things fit into 'idk, cloak with some armor built in???'

It is a bit of a shame that general upgrades aren't like summon upgrades (aka some good, some bad) cause this coat should be.... idk... pretty heavy?  So it'd almost make sense that it would have a mv reduction.... but general upgrades weren't built as good + bad (could try adding staggered or a mv reduction or a 'can't take the walk action' to a new action on the card... but all those are pretty hoopy and can get worked around by just doing actions in a different order.

[Filox]

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

That depends on what sort of crew you are playing, and how you use it. Chuck it on a model that is shooting, its not bad. put it in a Elite list where you can happily move models outside of their activation, and its not bad. 

How are you going to get through an armour+2 Shielded +2 Phiona ? (I guess lure, 😄 she can't just laugh it off). 

Its quite interesting to see you think an upgrade is over powered, but just change the order of the abilities and you rate it hugely differently. 

Would you still hire Lead lined coat as much if the abilities were altered in this way? Would the people you are adding it to change drastically (I guess would this make it a worthwhile upgrade on minions now, since to you the minions are getting value from getting the upgrade, as opposed to all its value being on the generic abilities that everyone gets)

I would still slap it on key models, (Phiona would actually kinda like this change :P) but I would take less. The problem with Hunker Down is that ability won't be used at all. As I said upgrade should give 2 various abilities so you can consider it in 2 or more scenarios, when minion one should be really strong. We would have stacking all over again (I know I said to slap Survivalist on it and now I think it would be stacking again. So, some utility ability instead of defensive one would be good (or even agro ability would do the job). I think the changes I propose for Inhuman Reflexes are actually kinda okay, and we should look at LLC from the same perspective. One Defensive ability, one aggressive ability and one strong (best case scenario multi-) role ability for minions. Amor +1 is what I would like keep on it. For aggressive it would be then Bravado, Purse (still might be too broken), Ruthless (I don't think GU needs it but it's an option), Grit(Frenzied), Stoic Nod action, Protection of the money, Deadly Pursuit. For minions I would suggest Parry trigger or Disguised? Not sure about that.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

5 minutes ago, muraki said:

This is what I find difficult around trying to think up possibly replacements for existing mechanics (especially on upgrades) as there's a fine line between 'situational' and 'pretty much just taking up space'.

If you wanted to give the same kind of feel as hunker down, give either a 0 action to give shielded +1 to the model, or make it so it add a trigger like defensive reflexes to their attacks (like how expert marksman got armor piercing)... altho I'd probably choose a suit that wasn't rams in Guild ha.  Would still be pretty strong tho, as armor+1 shielded+1 is nothing to sneeze at (which adran mentions).

Honestly I think if this upgrade were to change, the devs would probably add something brand new to it.  As giving out shielded more easily makes for a real tough model for min 2 people to hit.  Giving something else 'i'm wearing an outfit' related like disguised is also tough cause those kind of abilities are pretty strong too.  If anything I'd prefer to give it something like unimpeded or something based around models dying in an aura (as arcanists / nb / explorers all have something like that on an upgrade) but I'm not sure how either of those things fit into 'idk, cloak with some armor built in???'

It is a bit of a shame that general upgrades aren't like summon upgrades (aka some good, some bad) cause this coat should be.... idk... pretty heavy?  So it'd almost make sense that it would have a mv reduction.... but general upgrades weren't built as good + bad (could try adding staggered or a mv reduction or a 'can't take the walk action' to a new action on the card... but all those are pretty hoopy and can get worked around by just doing actions in a different order.

really want an ability called "im wearing an outfit" now

[trikk]

Hunker Down is bad, regardless of the crew you take.

Just now, im_open_to_suggestions said:

really want an ability called "im wearing an outfit" now

Two Guardsmen in a Ghilie Suit!

[im_open_to_suggestions]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hunker Down is bad, regardless of the crew you take.

 

Stick it on a beater like reichart or frank that wants to be in the thick of it swinging and he will get the shielded no issue. 

[muraki]

3 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

really want an ability called "im wearing an outfit" now

'im wearing an outfit now: this model is not changed in any way by this ability, but hey you weren't going to hunker down anyway'

[Filox]

1 minute ago, muraki said:

'im wearing an outfit now: this model is not changed in any way by this ability, but hey you weren't going to hunker down anyway'

Made my day

[im_open_to_suggestions]

11 minutes ago, muraki said:

'im wearing an outfit now: this model is not changed in any way by this ability, but hey you weren't going to hunker down anyway'

not to be mistaken with "im in a place" similar to laugh off except it can only be moved by its own actions, no other friendly or enemy actions

[Filox]

2 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

not to be mistaken with "im in a place" similar to laugh off except it can only be moved by its own actions, no other friendly or enemy actions

*Sounds of Agent 46 being put on a shelf. 

You served well buddy, but this is not your time.

[Plaag]

On 1/6/2021 at 9:28 PM, Filox said:

So, most us are aware what does it and how must have this upgrade is in current Guild meta, every crew besides Hoffman's run it in almost every crew. But to those who don't know what does it do here it goes. For 2SS we get Armor +1 and Laugh Off. Minions also gain Hunker Down which if model did not moved during it's activation it gains Shielded +2. So, as minion part is not important, but the Armor +1 and Laugh Off are big bois here. This upgrade is supreme in every aspect to the other defensive ups in game. Being able to reduce every damage by 1, most of the time making it only 1 damage, but also protects wearer from cheeky Lures and other mispositioning attacks on the enemy. Overall this upgrade is just supreme defensive tech against everything (I personally run both copies 90% of the time, and it doesn't matter who I play against). But, this upgrade unfortunately brakes Guild itself. A lot of models looks like they design with this UP on, making half the big bois in GU not tough enough, and some too tough with/out LLC. Like Agent 46, Phiona Gage, Judge, LJ, Jonathan etc.

No Prisoners is good example of mostly terrible upgrade, which is not worth taking 'cause most of the pulses, shockwaves and blasts deal 2+ damage. Hazardous terrains comes most of the time with condition which is the main part of it (Pyre Marker, Pit Trap etc.). Push for 2" and heal of 1 damage when killing is truly a bad ability. Most models for killing can draw card, gain soul stone or fast. Minions also gains ability to throw friendly model within 2" to enemy they just attacked within 8" for discarding a card. Personally I've tested 2 times and never again. This upgrade requires too much set up and most of the times 2 cards to make it work (1 for attack, 1 for ability to trigger), making it in my opinion 3-4 times worse upgrade then LLC.

Expert Marksman is okay upgrade, although he gains value on 4 models. Sonnia, Dashel, Nino and Lone Marshal. Only minions who can get any value from this up is Monster Hunter, Sergeant and Spelleater. I won't be talking about it too much 'cause this upgrade is still playable, or at least it does not haver sibling who your mother always praises and compares you to.

So, right now possible changes. Let's start with dethroning the king.

Lead-Lined Coat changes:
- remove Laugh Off
- instead of Laugh Off add one abilities below:

• Pursue (not sure about it, might be to broken, thou it would help Dita and Sonnia being more fearful master)
• Bring It! (ability which Good Old Boys have)
• Survivalist

No Prisoner changes:
- upgrade Riot Gear to not being able to get condition from the same source he reduces damag (make it free or for discard, no idea how OP it would be, second option is to make trigger you has to reduce damage to 0 to do not gain condition, no damaging pulses just has no effect on it then)
- change On the Prowl for Laugh Off

I would personally tried to change "Catch Them!" but it's not important right now. Those changes would dethrone Lead-Lined Coat as supreme defensive upgrade in entire game (also nerfs Phiona Gage combo which is absurdly strong for SS resource required to pull this off) and bring No Prisoners as viable tech piece against crews like Colette, Nekima, Wong etc. and we would finally see something more than LLC all day long.

So, here are my thoughts, what are yours? Do you think that I see the problem with as it is or am I missing something? Waiting for your opinions how would you fix this current problem.

 

no prisoners is a good up-some bands kill enemy just with putting him into 2 hazardous, so against mei, yan lo, jack daw, and others that work with hazardous; also vs nekima and other masters that make pulse dmg

and no prisoners cannt be replaced with llc in this matchups, because u will suffer not a big dmg, but in the way of 1+1+1+1...

[Kharnage]

Since a comparison was made, I'll throw in my two cents about Inhuman Reflexes pre and post nerf.

Butterfly Jump was so good you could staple it to anyone. I was putting it on models like Candy, where literally the only benefit was BFJ, and it was still worth it, because it almost always guaranteed that your opponent will lose AP to no longer being in range, or more commonly, being stiff armed by models with superior reach. 

Nowadays, Scamper as a replacement is waaaay less problematic. It's still good, and occasionally even better since it can occur in response to static duels and even during your own activation, but your opponent gets more say in when it goes off (since it's only on their cheat) and thus, counterplay is born. Which made it not an auto include.  Gone are the days of Inhuman Reflexes in pairs in every single crew, stapled to models that only took it for the 1 ability. Nekima still gets her stiff arming jollies and I like it on Bad Juju, but it's been a while since I've seen the upgrade in another Neverborn player's crew. 

I think that overall a change to lead lined coat could be made such that it's still a useful choice for models that want it (justice I believe is the model I would argue is most in need of a coat without it being annoying, a la Phiona) without it being so dumb that it's being used in pairs in nearly every guild crew anyone makes. I don't know about y'all, but I legitimately feel dumb if I don't take both LLCs, every time, for that value. 

My suggestion for balancing purposes would be to keep laugh off, move the armor 1 to the minion buff, and give an ability like "Cowboy's Duster: this model's attack actions gain the following trigger: (ram) High Noon. This model gains shielded +2." 

This way the non-minion models in question can still receive a lot of damage reduction, circumstantially more depending, but at the cost of having to actually work for their tankiness, potentially at the cost of crit strike (or Life and Death, in the case of domadores) 

Thoughts?