Filox Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 So, most us are aware what does it and how must have this upgrade is in current Guild meta, every crew besides Hoffman's run it in almost every crew. But to those who don't know what does it do here it goes. For 2SS we get Armor +1 and Laugh Off. Minions also gain Hunker Down which if model did not moved during it's activation it gains Shielded +2. So, as minion part is not important, but the Armor +1 and Laugh Off are big bois here. This upgrade is supreme in every aspect to the other defensive ups in game. Being able to reduce every damage by 1, most of the time making it only 1 damage, but also protects wearer from cheeky Lures and other mispositioning attacks on the enemy. Overall this upgrade is just supreme defensive tech against everything (I personally run both copies 90% of the time, and it doesn't matter who I play against). But, this upgrade unfortunately brakes Guild itself. A lot of models looks like they design with this UP on, making half the big bois in GU not tough enough, and some too tough with/out LLC. Like Agent 46, Phiona Gage, Judge, LJ, Jonathan etc. No Prisoners is good example of mostly terrible upgrade, which is not worth taking 'cause most of the pulses, shockwaves and blasts deal 2+ damage. Hazardous terrains comes most of the time with condition which is the main part of it (Pyre Marker, Pit Trap etc.). Push for 2" and heal of 1 damage when killing is truly a bad ability. Most models for killing can draw card, gain soul stone or fast. Minions also gains ability to throw friendly model within 2" to enemy they just attacked within 8" for discarding a card. Personally I've tested 2 times and never again. This upgrade requires too much set up and most of the times 2 cards to make it work (1 for attack, 1 for ability to trigger), making it in my opinion 3-4 times worse upgrade then LLC. Expert Marksman is okay upgrade, although he gains value on 4 models. Sonnia, Dashel, Nino and Lone Marshal. Only minions who can get any value from this up is Monster Hunter, Sergeant and Spelleater. I won't be talking about it too much 'cause this upgrade is still playable, or at least it does not haver sibling who your mother always praises and compares you to. So, right now possible changes. Let's start with dethroning the king. Lead-Lined Coat changes: - remove Laugh Off - instead of Laugh Off add one abilities below: Pursue (not sure about it, might be to broken, thou it would help Dita and Sonnia being more fearful master) Bring It! (ability which Good Old Boys have) Survivalist No Prisoner changes: - upgrade Riot Gear to not being able to get condition from the same source he reduces damag (make it free or for discard, no idea how OP it would be, second option is to make trigger you has to reduce damage to 0 to do not gain condition, no damaging pulses just has no effect on it then) - change On the Prowl for Laugh Off I would personally tried to change "Catch Them!" but it's not important right now. Those changes would dethrone Lead-Lined Coat as supreme defensive upgrade in entire game (also nerfs Phiona Gage combo which is absurdly strong for SS resource required to pull this off) and bring No Prisoners as viable tech piece against crews like Colette, Nekima, Wong etc. and we would finally see something more than LLC all day long. So, here are my thoughts, what are yours? Do you think that I see the problem with as it is or am I missing something? Waiting for your opinions how would you fix this current problem. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedar Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 I have similar thoughtsregarding the GU upgrades. LLC is must-have on master/other heavy beater, as it protects from both movement tricks and damage. I think that moving Laugh Off to No Prisoners (instead of On The Prowl) and giving Survivalist would help to balance them a lot (although it should be noted that with Survivalist many models increase their healing potential rapidly. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 I'm agree but then they should change most of the Guild masters because they look designed to spend 2ss on LLC. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 55 minutes ago, belorey said: I'm agree but then they should change most of the Guild masters because they look designed to spend 2ss on LLC. Well, If LLC would be changed we could see some buffs for models which run it all the time. Thou some changes would be required, we can minimalize them for particular encounters by bringing Laugh Off on different upgrade. Survivalist on the other hand would buff LJ, Judge, Jonathan mostly, we could still see them wearing No Prisoners for special cases, as I think should be the cases from the begging. By the way, as personal opinion I would like too see new upgrades releases in next expansion. Particularly I would like to see something like "Poisoned Weapons: This model action apply poison +1." it would be nice anti Hard to Kill tech for GU, which we especially lack off. But this is not a thread for this kind of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 I'm not sure a faction with Hoffman needs access to survivalist. You're turning welding torch from healing 3 to healing 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 9 hours ago, touchdown said: I'm not sure a faction with Hoffman needs access to survivalist. You're turning welding torch from healing 3 to healing 5. I think you mean 4, but I know what you had in mind. It's true that his healing would increase on 1-2 model s "probably" Peacekeeper, Joss and Howard. But right now, Hoffman is using almost none of this upgrades. Is taking upgrade for 2 SS only for Survivalist is worth it (having Armor beyond 2 is not very efficient). My guess would be sometimes if you know enemy can bring serious AP damage or Analyze Weakness, though it could shift meta in Hoffman a little bit at least. Not just spamming 2x Hunter, 2x Watcher and Heavy Beaters with slight variations. Of course maybe Survivalist and Pursue are equally bad options to bring on LLC, though it must be remember we want to get rid of stupid Phiona overperforming tank tech and do not make upgrade itself unplayable like Wanted Criminal. By the way, you can not slap LLC into only construct models, we can keep Hoff in check with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 if No Prisoners wouldn't be changed from meh to meh I guess splitting Armor + Laugh off between the 2 would be good. LLC and No Prisoner minion only buffs are bad to say the least compared to some other upgrade buffs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touchdown Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 @Filox the main ability and the trigger are separate sources of healing (it doesn't say the target heals +1). So survivalist would process off both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, touchdown said: @Filox the main ability and the trigger are separate sources of healing (it doesn't say the target heals +1). So survivalist would process off both. You are right, if there were only italic text which stopped Hoffman from equiping it on Peacekeeper 🤣 But, to be precise. Yes you are right, although we can just change wording on a trigger to increase heal by 1 instead healing model by another 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 @Filox i think you wanna change everything in Guild. 😂😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm a Teapot! Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 Gotta say as a non guild player is kinda boring to tech more against Fiona than against masters when playing against guild....would love to see a change in LLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 37 minutes ago, Filox said: You are right, if there were only italic text which stopped Hoffman from equiping it on Peacekeeper 🤣 But, to be precise. Yes you are right, although we can just change wording on a trigger to increase heal by 1 instead healing model by another 1. It still goes fine on Joss and Howard and Phiona even with its current restriction. All of whom go from Armour +1 to Armour +2. You're welcome to your own opinions, but adding something to card A, which then means you need to change card B sounds like overcomplicating things and probably much less likely to be practical (Granted here you can probably not give the upgrade Survivalist, but rather an ability which said if this model healed during an action it heals 1 at the end of the action to get to where you want on just the 1 card. This wouldn't boost heals such as regeneration, but those aren't very common in Guild. It would boost current survivalists I suppose). And, to me, I find these thread much harder to follow when you just keep updating the first post with things from 2 pages through. Its up to you, but I would have though a new post at that point in the conversation is much easier for people to follow the conversation as it happens. Updating the first post may make it easier for new people to join in, I'm not sure. (It also makes a difference to how annoying I find it if I'm checking it on my phone or on computer so it may well be just me). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 I love no prisoners as it stands, but then I use the peacekeeper alot, also pretty good on phiona or others with at least 1 armour. Protects them from hazards, pulses, blasts etc on top of their armour, plus incidental movement and healing on kills. This is the sorted thing an upgrade should be rather than an auto take, situational. But I do like it and take it loads. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 Be careful what you ask for. A lot of models will not change. A single upgrade may. So if you feel a lot of models are designed with the upgrade in mind, once it changes, a lot of models will now not have access to it anymore. Also the title of this thread is very confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 6:25 PM, Gaston said: Be careful what you ask for. A lot of models will not change. A single upgrade may. So if you feel a lot of models are designed with the upgrade in mind, once it changes, a lot of models will now not have access to it anymore. I can only hope for Wyrd to be a good gos when it will come to all. Although I understand frustration many people have, in GU and in other factions playing against it. 2 best defensive abilities should not be at the same on one up, while minion only are worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_open_to_suggestions Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 5:13 PM, katadder said: I love no prisoners as it stands, but then I use the peacekeeper alot, also pretty good on phiona or others with at least 1 armour. Protects them from hazards, pulses, blasts etc on top of their armour, plus incidental movement and healing on kills. This is the sorted thing an upgrade should be rather than an auto take, situational. But I do like it and take it loads. This, an upgrade thats an auto include should be nerfed to make it situational. No Prisoners on a hard to kill model is amazing. LLC being stapled onto cards is just boring for all involved 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, im_open_to_suggestions said: This, an upgrade thats an auto include should be nerfed to make it situational. No Prisoners on a hard to kill model is amazing. LLC being stapled onto cards is just boring for all involved Soo, what are you suggesting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 One thing to note is how badly Neverborn were warped by the Inhuman Reflexes upgrade change (although I'm not sure if that was just lots of worry initially or if it had a really big impact). If a whole faction is taking an upgrade and you nerf it, you have to compensate it with buffs, which is hard to imagine that many buffs going out at once. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: One thing to note is how badly Neverborn were warped by the Inhuman Reflexes upgrade change (although I'm not sure if that was just lots of worry initially or if it had a really big impact). If a whole faction is taking an upgrade and you nerf it, you have to compensate it with buffs, which is hard to imagine that many buffs going out at once. I agree that this upgrade is kind off lacking, although Butterfly Jump was way to easy to abuse on non-minion models. Ancient Pact is also creating a really bad problem with card draw, you cannot give models ability to draw it because with Nefarious they are gonna draw way too much. Also, the top abilities are also really bad, so entire upgrade needs to ne changed. For my personal changes to Inhuman Reflexes would be this. For the top: Blade Rush and Evasive, for the minion only it would be Butterfly Jump. It would made Nephilim minions a little bit stronger, would help them with various scheme runners around faction. Also because we have 2 independent abilities on top (they just don't stack like LLC does) we can truly use this upgrade as tech option and not a must have as before. But it's a thread about Guild ups, so let's try keep it that way. Maybe in future we will do contest for a coolest new upgrade to a faction. But for this, we are gonna wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_open_to_suggestions Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 On 1/21/2021 at 5:02 PM, Filox said: Soo, what are you suggesting? make laugh off minions only. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 11 hours ago, im_open_to_suggestions said: make laugh off minions only. Okay, so what instead of Laugh Off for non-minions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedar Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 9 hours ago, Filox said: Okay, so what instead of Laugh Off for non-minions? Hunker down obviously 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_open_to_suggestions Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 12 hours ago, Filox said: Okay, so what instead of Laugh Off for non-minions? hunker down. or another ability that i cant think of right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filox Posted January 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 Just now, im_open_to_suggestions said: hunker down. or another ability that i cant think of right now. Hunker Down is damn useless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_open_to_suggestions Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, Filox said: Hunker Down is damn useless its not. its situational. which will make the upgrade less of an auto include and more of a thought out pick. as upgrades should be 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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