Wishlist of changes for Guild

[Filox]

Hi, looking at the current state of some models/crews in Guild I would like Wyrd to change some of models so they can be finally be seen again on the table. Not all changes should be applied at one moment, some of them are just alternatives for one one already listed in this current model changes. For all folks who wants to my "knowledge of the Guild" I'm currently the top Guild Player in my country, so I think I know some stuff about my lovely faction.

Versatile:

Peacekeeper right now:
Right now is Versatile/Augmented with tanky heavy hitter with cost of 10 SS. His weakness is low Wk stat as the wound pool, mediocre damage for the cost and lacks value outside keyword. We are better off just paying more SS for Pale Rider or Phiona with LLC. We are paying a lot for "4 attack dream" which rarely come to reality.

Peacekeeper possible changes:
- add +1 to Wk stat
- add Terrifying
- add Ruthless
- add ability to generate Power Tokens outside trigger on melee attacks

Orderly right now:
Orderly are supposed to be healers, well mate they are bad it. Short range, draw of cards when killing o model with 1/3/4 with 0" engagement range, Restraints are okay but never put to use same as constriction, Hard to Wound is okay. The fact that then cannot even heal themselfs is putting even more nails into them.

Orderly possible changes:
- increase range on heal to 6"
- make him be able to heal himself
- add manipulative ability

Marshal:

Lady Justice right now:

LJ is in okay spot, though she has some dumb mechanics that just don't work with her. "7 attack meme" really hurt her but her crew suffered more casualties.

Lady Justice possible changes:

- add Ruthless
- remove Inspiring Swordplay
- remove Sudden Strike from leap and give her build in mask
- remove Decay for something else or change it to stat 6 with build in 

The Judge right now:
Judge is okay model, just remove damages from his card draw. It's either to random and can make stupid situations like 6 damage into Judge or some random undead in his LoS. Not fun for both sides.

The Judge possible changes
- change Risk of Reason to no more deal or suffer damage, just draw 2/3 cards

Death Marshal Recruiter right now:
This model does nothing, is never bring into play even in Dashel where he should get more value then in LJ. 

Death Marshal recruiter possible changes:
- change Pine Box to be more rewarding action (other thread is in forum already)
- remove Beyond Time
- change Grim Recruitment to summon Death Marshal from enemy models
- change One Foot Towards the Grave to give friendly Marshal models +1 to Wk stat for reminder of their activation
- add  that let's you ignore incorporeal or Hard to Wound on enemy models
- increase Wp stat to 6
- add  to melee attack

Death Marshal right now:
DM are okayish, but they don't have their specific duty to perform in the game, you can call them jack of no trades and no weaknesses. I would like to see them as primary scheme runner for the crew.

Death Marshal possible changes:
- change Pine Box to be more rewarding action
- add built in reposition on Pine Box
- change Leeching Strength to be able to target currently burying model
- remove Hate the Dead ability
- add bonus action that let's you drop scheme marker in base contact (we can call it Finish the Job)

Scales of Justice Right now:
This model draws you exactly 3 cards, 2 times from his bonus action and third when it dies. Value from Negation Aura and Weight of Guild in non-existent. Balancing the Scales is not a threat, especially when this models counts for schemes and strategies. in summary your value is low and you opponent can easily gain value from it.

Scales of Justice possible changes:
- add Maniplative
- increase Wd stat to 6

Witch Hunter:

Thalarian Queller right now:
TQ is not existent model right now. Startle is put here for laughs, does not have engagement, Adversary(Witchling) is plain bad (2 models with this keyword who can get value from it). Barrier to the Other World on model with 12" attack and as above no engagement range.

Thalarian Queller possible changes:
- add Gunfighter
- remove Startle
- change Flaming Brand to give Adversary(Witch Hunter)
- remove Barrier from the Other World
- add  to his primary attack

Purifying Flame right now:
PF is suicide model which can't be summon back(well he can, but why try though?) and without Insignificant. He is in weird spot when he want to rush the enemy to get value before dying but in some strategies he can even give points to the enemy models.

Purifying Flame possible changes:
- add Insignificant
- give him ability to be summoned more easily
- increase his Demise ability to +2

Family:

Perdita Ortega right now:
Dita is in oaky spot thought for offensive crew she does not shine better then other competitors, she could go without any changes but I would like to list them anyway.

Perdita Ortega possible changes:
- add Family Values trigger on Custom Peacebringer

Pistolero De Latigo right now:
PDL are thrash model, they kill themselfs before enemy tries to shoot them, they are supposed to be this crew primary scheme runner but their are not worth it.

Pistolero De Latigo possible changes:
- increase Wd stat to 6
- remove Reckless
- add Trigger Finger ability
- increase stat on small-Gauge Revolver to 5 and change damage spread to 2/3/4
- increase cost to 5
- increase Df to 5
- add ability to may be ignored as friendly models for purposes of friendly actions (this means Dita can draw more cards from Hero Gamble)

Frontier:

Cornelius Basse right now:
Basse is okay right now, though Caught in Quicksand as master action is pretty underwhelming and situational, same as Sand Worm?! trigger.

Cornelius Basse possible changes:
- change CiQ for damage spread 2/3/4
- change Sand Worm?! trigger to deal 3/4/6

Jonathan Reichart right now:
RC is in weird spot right now because he wants to hold down enemy models for his crew, when at the same time giving  for Friendly Fire and Concealment. Also he attacks rarely, mostly using Bring It to get those models.

Jonathan Reichart possible changes:
- add ability to ignore be Ignored for Friendly Fire and Concealing when targeting enemy models in his engagement range
- add sudden strike on his Kick Up Dust bonus action

Paul Crockett right now:
Only model in keyword that does not have a Favorable Terrain

Paul Crockett possible changes:
- add Favorable Terrain

Elite:

Lucius Mattheson right now:
Lucius is in strange spot right now, although his front look really nice, the back on the side is underwhelming. Issue Command has most of the useless triggers, which is strange on Masters main action. Hidden Sniper is almost never used.

Lucius Mattheson possible changes:
- change Under Pressure for Pull Here and There
- add Preparations Trigger to Issue Command
-  increase Hidden Sniper stat to 6 and add Coordinated Attack trigger

Agent 46 right now:
Agent 46 after nerf got beaten, right now beside a little amount damage he does not offer much in crew which lacks damage, but still Lucius can squeeze a lot of him, the only problem is he dies like fly. 

Agent 46 possible changes:
- add Df 6

Investigator right now:
It's a rarely used model, Garrote and Staggered Tech does not work. Overall it's pretty underwhelming models.

Investigator possible changes:
- sorry folks, no idea

That's all for my wish list for GU changes, are all of them needed? Don't know, definitely all of them must be tested before release though I think most of them hit the spot in actual problem of the keyword. I do not listed nerfs for GU models because I only wanted to focus on models that need immediate changes or gonna underperform for big ES population increase. Want to hear about how you find the changes I listed, which you think are good/bad and how would you try to fix those models in some other ways, but most importantly create a lot of noise around this thread so Wyrd knows we are waiting for better time for our beloved faction!

 

 

PART 2

So, after a few days we have came to some conclusions about the changes I propose. I shall list them in PART 2, and then after another few days create PART 3 and etc. until we made a good "balance changes for listed models.

Versatile:

Peacekeeper as you guys said might be a little bit better then I thought, although he stills has a problem as Versatile without proper back up (like Lawyer to Obey him around and Steward to keep him running). So after what you guys said, what about giving him Dynamic Generator ability to let him generate Power Tokens outside melee or just simply add Spool Up trigger on Harpoon Gun.

Orderly did not have had any special debate, outside some of my private conversations with players during matches. Two interesting ideas were proposed to change in Orderly, them being is increase range on Necrotic Injection to 1" and add to Emergency Surgery some triggers. Keeping him dedicated healer for Living models outside Steward (Domador is great in Keyword, though outside heal for 2 per action in kind off weak for 8SS model).

Marshal:

Pine Box was proposed to increase range to 1" and remove Italic targeting restriction, add Reposition trigger to Pine Box.

Lady Justice also had share in discussion, the changes proposed were. Adding  to her Leap in exchange for Sudden Strike, changing Inspiring Swordplay to give 2 focuses to any Marshal model within LoS (and maybe bigger range, it current form it looks a little bit bonkers even for me). And changing Decay for anything else, I heard from one man to put here a range Pine Box. Something like Rg 6" Stat 3( or 4, must be testes) Rst Sz. for triggers it would be Leeching Strength, On Your Heals and Sudden Strike but you are able to target model you are currently burying.

Death Marshal Recruiter same as Peacekeeper had his name spoken during discussion and on private conversations. Suggested change right now. Increase Wp stat to 6. Remove Beyond Time, change One Foot Toward the Grave to give +1 to Wk stat for friendly Marshal models within  5" (range of the aura is debatable). Add  to stat on either Peacebringer or Peacebringer Blade.

Not sure what we want to do about Scales of Justice because almost nobody spoked about it, up to you guys.

Make Judge to just draw 2 cards for one damage from Risk of Reason, add Surge trigger (maybe? might be overtuned at this form), remove A Terrible Revelations trigger. Increase TN to 12 (or 13). Those changes were proposed in private conversation.

Witch Hunter:

You guys said Purifying Flame is great scheme runner and does not need to be changed, You have a point, I've never thought about him like that so we shall keep him off the post for now. 

Thalarian Queller on the other hand was spoken and most of you guys agreed that he needs a buff. Proposes for now are to add Gunfighter ability, change I Didn't Start the Fire to reduce burning by 2 instead of ending it. Add cheeky trigger on Startle, Maybe rework Flaming Brand, not a lot was spoken this particular Tactical Action.

Family:

Most of you guys said to change Bravado to also give Shielded +1, I like the idea so I will put it here.

Perdita Ortega was also not spoken a lot here, so I assume the changes stays, meaning add Family Values trigger on her Custom Peacebringer. Personally I would like to see on it also built in  to finally deal some damage even on weak (Familia is very card drainy and not a lot of draw is generate from it).

Pistolero de Latigo changes might a little to big, so let me change them. Remove Reckless, increase Wd stat to 5, increase Small-Gauge Revolver stat to 5, add A New Horizon bonus action. Hope, you like a little more and let's hear your thoughts about it.

Frontier:

Paul Crockett  should get Favorable Terrain, this did not change If I recall correctly. 

Argument for Basse Sandworm?!  trigger being he can deal X damage during the turn is invalid in my opinion. Sonnia, Rasputina and Wong can do exactly the same for cheaper and if you try to argue that they are OP when you start in a bubble and just get focus blast into the on more then 3 models it means you made a terrible decisions during your game and you deserves it. Although the increased damage track might be a little to good, we must remember that it's still Once per Activation action. So, change the damage track on Sandworm?!  to 3/4/5 and what about Among the Willows trigger? I found it being a nice idea which does not work in normal game, so maybe changing the timing of this ability to when resolving for after resolving? This is more of a question how do you find this trigger and now as implemented change. There also were some people speaking about some triggers on Stoic Nod action, although there were not interesting takes on.

Jonathan keeps his changes, meaning Sudden Strike on Kick Up Dust, and an ability to be ignored for Friendly Fire by Frontier models and remove concealment from enemy models he is currently engaging.

Elite:

Increase Garrote range to 1" .

Agent 46 had only one opinion and it was do increase Df to 6, most of you agree with this.

My changes about Lucius triggered some of you guys, although when spoken on Vassal Discord about the changes for Hidden Sniper most people agree. Lucius has similar master to Zoraida, while she being a great master and Lucius not as much, being full support crew while lacking damage is truly beating him down. Zoraida for Hex has exact the same action as Hidden Sniper, only change being My Loyal Servant for Critical Strike. Please remember that Hidden Sniper does not ignore Friendly Fire and either upgrade or focus is required. Don't about how to interpret comment about changes to Issue Command so waiting for you guys to tell If they should be listed anew in PART 3.

As for Investigators whey were proposed to increase Interrogate stat to 6. There were also changes to give them one more defensive ability, although not even one was listed down in the thread (or I missed it). Alternativly we can lower the cost to 6SS.

Something came up when I was trying to pull of a Peacekeeper crew in Lucius. Lawyer can't actually draw cards from obeying. Him costing 6 + "2" makes it higher cost only for Investigators, GL itself, Scribe and Changeling. He mostly obeys Agent, Doppel and Alan witch are models with cost 8+. How do you find this interaction? 

So, PART 2 has just begun. Please, share your opinions on those changes as you were speaking about the PART 1!

 

 

Part 3

So after some the thread has been resurrected so it's time to update this post!

Let's start with a our Family because we value them the most in this post so far.

Family: 

Change Bravado to either push or give Shielded +2 (Shielded +1 is too weak in my honest opinion for an action which you can only make once per turn).

Perdita Ortega:

Only model which doesn't have Family Values trigger on her main action although being a Master. This trigger is on Analyze Weakness action though which makes it sometimes useless when your opponent does not generate huge amount of Shielded or has Armor. So first change would be giving Perdita Family Values trigger on her Custom Peacebringer attack action (maybe should even be built in my opinion, it can only be used once per Activation anyway).

Francisco Ortega

Due to buff in Bravado him having Gtit (Hardened) and option to Armor via LLC upgrade he could be a little way to tough to take down. First would be removing Grit to reduce his damage reduction by 1. I personally would like him to have Combat Finesse instead of normal Finesse as well changing his Df trigger to something like this Don't Mind Me, Focus on the Battle: (I'm terrible at naming stuff like this...) Friendly Family model within LoS/6"  can take Concentrate action. This trigger could definitely be built in and replace Parry. Some people say that only removing Grit and giving built in on Balanced Sword attack action would also be sufficient.

Pala Loco

Folks says that giving him Ruthless and Thrash on his Attack Actions would be enough, thou in my honest opinion he don't need Thrash trigger, he has Blow It to Hell bonus action to do it instead.

Santiago Ortega 

Would also use Ruthless as Df stat increase to 6. His damage track is one of the worst in entire keyword and he does not bring much to the table, thou giving weak damage track value of 3 would really help this model see more play.

Nino

For being only model with built Family Values and mediocre damage even for his cost (as lacking Expert Shot) he dies way to quickly. He has nothing to defend himself and there is almost no way to defend him in keyword from his adversaries. Giving him Stealth would fix most of the problems of this model.

Monster Hunters are okay in my opinion.

Pistolero de Latigo:

As for being one of the worst models in entire game in many people opinion they would definitely use a little bit of love. I saw that some of you said giving them Hard to Kill instead of Fistful of Script and increasing they Wd stat to 5. I personally like this and would definitely help them to start being seen on more competitive tables.

Elite

Lucius

Leaving Hidden Sniper action his Issue Order is lacking as Main Action of a Master. Trigger on this action does not matter most of the time so giving him some better triggers to actually force people to cheat for better desirable effect would be nice. Like My Loyal Servant, Push Here or There and Stay a While and Listen.

Agent 46

His damage for main damage dealer is not quite big and he is forced to wear LLC every game due to him being way too easy to kill for Henchmen of his caliber. Although for now giving either Butterfly Jump and/or Df 6 would really help him stick for a little longer.

Witch Hunter

Bringing more toughness to Witchling models would be sufficient, for example via increasing Wd stat by 1.

Thalarian Queler should just get Gunfighter.

Marshal

Fixing Judges Risk of Reason to no longer killing himself or your opponent.

Redesigning DMR.  

 

That would be all for this PART. Waiting for your insights! Some things didn't make it to Part 3 mostly because noone was talking about them or everything was already told.

[belorey]

Frontier:

They must change the Stoic Nod on Basse and Reichart. Something similar to Dashels Foul-mouted Motivation (heal 1/2/3 and Focus +1) or Kirai's Soothe Spirit and lower the TN to 10.

Basse

-Chesterfield Shootgun should ignore concealment.

-Claim the Bounty could be to draw cards or gain Focus.

Reichart

-Should have a trigger on his Bring It like:

be stoic: once per activation, after resolving. Take the stoic nod action.

[Popedarpa]

You've got way too many hot takes on here for me to reply to all of them. In general I think you're pretty much misevaluating most of the models you suggest changes to. The only takes I can agree with are on orderlies quellerd and recruiters needing some help.

[Filox]

5 minutes ago, Popedarpa said:

You've got way too many hot takes on here for me to reply to all of them. In general I think you're pretty much misevaluating most of the models you suggest changes to. The only takes I can agree with are on orderlies quellerd and recruiters needing some help.

Well, that is still my opinion that is based on my and some of colleagues knowledge and experience with playing the Guild. As I stated at the begging some models with multiple changes like Peacekeeper should not receive all of them, he would just gone from underperforming to the beast and we don't want it. Only one or maximum 2 of those changes should be implemented to make model good/strong, so they can be an option on the table (at least in competitive Malifaux). And you are right, the trio you mentioned is currently unplayable in any form, but other models are doing job of models listed in list much better in every scenario and this can't be. In ideal world every category of models should have been picked based on which master you face and what schemes. Right now it's hard to see such models in Guild, we just have best performers, which are auto-included. Beside fast-damage-dealer-undead-tech, in this one we actually have 2 strong competitors 😃. Also a lot of crew at current moment lack primary schemes runner, when other crews get Necropunks, Silurids, Bultgins, Gokudo or Monks. Of course Guild have Watcher, which sadly outside Hoffman is performing undervalued. But I wish to see your opinion on written down, why you exactly think I'm wrong and if only partially wrong what would you like to see instead.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

If you are wanting this many changes in the faction maybe the faction isnt for you

[4thstringer]

Phew those are some spicy takes.  

Just off the top of my head-

Caught in Quicksand may not apply every game, but it is often a very powerful ability that makes a really nice complement to the already nice shotgun he carries.

I would be so sad if they made the flame insig.  Best scheme runner in faction.

If you buffed the PK at all, much less to the level you discuss, ArcHoff becomes the best master in the game.

Risk of Reason could use some help, but I don't think no damage is the sweet spot there.

I think I agree with most of the rest of your assessments of most models more than the fixes I would apply to them.  They all feel like too much.  

 

 

[katadder]

Can't believe you started with the peacekeeper, from there I just couldn't take you seriously. 

I mean he's a beast, with flurry, easy access to fast in his keyword and is that threat of another attack. 4 actions is the dream? In Hoffman 4 is the standard and have had 5.

I also run him nicely in Nellie where again its easy to get trail of gore and speed him up. 

Let's not forget he has a stat 6 gun too and can if he has power tokens hit min 5.

Quellers, pistoleros and orderly I could get behind changes but nothing else in your list.

[belorey]

Family:

They need some defensive tech. If you make a "mirror match" with Ophelia you can see how strong become those Green bastards with their +1 stat and +1 shield each attack whils Family models are very soft.

Maybe give shielded +1 with the bravado action?

Niño Ortega

He need a second  action. Something like Risky Maneuver, Mark Territory or Blow It to Hell.

[Filox]

1 minute ago, katadder said:

I also run him nicely in Nellie where again its easy to get trail of gore and speed him up. 

Actually, Nellie does not speed him much as you think. Remember that when you make your opponent take Interact Action they can just remove Scheme Marker in Base Contact with them, even if there is none of them. I don't know why Arc Hoff is better, I saw more people found him stronger in Guild, thanks to Howard and Joss getting LLC and Melisa Ignore Armor and ignoring of Friendly Fire. Also, right now Peacekeeper even in Keyword is being pushed out by Joss, Melisa and Howard trio. If you want to push your enemies you can still fit 2 Hunter in which are amazing models right now. And remember not to get swayed by 5 attack dream or 7 attack meme LJ. And even if you are able to get all 4-5 attack from Peacekeeper or 7 from LJ, it only means you made some terrible decision mid-game 😅

[katadder]

2 minutes ago, Filox said:

Actually, Nellie does not speed him much as you think. Remember that when you make your opponent take Interact Action they can just remove Scheme Marker in Base Contact with them, even if there is none of them. I don't know why Arc Hoff is better, I saw more people found him stronger in Guild, thanks to Howard and Joss getting LLC and Melisa Ignore Armor and ignoring of Friendly Fire. Also, right now Peacekeeper even in Keyword is being pushed out by Joss, Melisa and Howard trio. If you want to push your enemies you can still fit 2 Hunter in which are amazing models right now. And remember not to get swayed by 5 attack dream or 7 attack meme LJ. And even if you are able to get all 4-5 attack from Peacekeeper or 7 from LJ, it only means you made some terrible decision mid-game 😅

With the models within 2 you can get markers down.

Also she speeds him up with her bonus by pushing it towards scheme markers.

As for keyword, I prefer the h2w peacekeeper over Howard, more damage potential and survives more too.

Each to their own but peacekeeper does far more than you realise it seems.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

7 minutes ago, belorey said:

Family:

Niño Ortega

He need a second  action. Something like Risky Maneuver, Mark Territory or Blow It to Hell.

Nino is already very powerful in that crew. anything added to him will put his cost up to beyond reasonable

[belorey]

1 minute ago, Filox said:

Actually, Nellie does not speed him much as you think. Remember that when you make your opponent take Interact Action they can just remove Scheme Marker in Base Contact with them, even if there is none of them. I don't know why Arc Hoff is better, I saw more people found him stronger in Guild, thanks to Howard and Joss getting LLC and Melisa Ignore Armor and ignoring of Friendly Fire. Also, right now Peacekeeper even in Keyword is being pushed out by Joss, Melisa and Howard trio. If you want to push your enemies you can still fit 2 Hunter in which are amazing models right now. And remember not to get swayed by 5 attack dream or 7 attack meme LJ. And even if you are able to get all 4-5 attack from Peacekeeper or 7 from LJ, it only means you made some terrible decision mid-game 😅

I played Hoffman in last tournament with PK, Howard, Joss & Melissa. 

PK almost kill VSchtook in T3 (he survived thx to soulstones with high cards) 

I like PK, he is not really a versatil model, but with Hoffman becomes unstopable.

[Filox]

16 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

If you are wanting this many changes in the faction maybe the faction isnt for you

It's not about faction not being for me or etc. It's just overall strength of those models compared to others similar in cost and job to on the table, as also how they compare to other options. As I stated before, some options are just straight better or this one particular is so underwhelming it's not even worth considering. Like Ice Gamins in December crew.

[Filox]

2 minutes ago, katadder said:

With the models within 2 you can get markers down.

Yes, but friendly, not enemy. And yes, you can use bonus action for pushing him. Same as totem can do some pushing for him. But as you just stated he is playable in only 2 crews, a Versatile model playable only in 2 Crews 🤐

[belorey]

1 minute ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

Nino is already very powerful in that crew. anything added to him will put his cost up to beyond reasonable

We are agree that Family need a defensive tech?

Niño need more durabilitie, he is (like most of the keyword) so soft and becomes and easy target.

Santiago and Papa Loco need something else too. I don't really know what i would change on then but they are the worst models in keyword (outside pistoleros, nobody use them 😢)

[trikk]

7 minutes ago, katadder said:

With the models within 2 you can get markers down.

You put friendly markers to Nellie so you can't trigger trail

 

Nino should just have stealth.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

3 minutes ago, Filox said:

It's not about faction not being for me or etc. It's just overall strength of those models compared to others similar in cost and job to on the table, as also how they compare to other options. As I stated before, some options are just straight better or this one particular is so underwhelming it's not even worth considering. Like Ice Gamins in December crew.

This is a discussion that happens far too often in guild.  Too much time spending wishing for things instead of looking at what we do have.  yes other factions have strong options but we dont play those factions so who cares. 

[Filox]

4 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

Nino is already very powerful in that crew. anything added to him will put his cost up to beyond reasonable

I totally agree with you, only problem of Family is lack of defensive tech to keep them long enough to deal damage. Outside giving out both LLC and spaming stones there is not much to make stop enemies from slaughtering their models just by choosing them.

[Filox]

2 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

This is a discussion that happens far too often in guild.  Too much time spending wishing for things instead of looking at what we do have.  yes other factions have strong options but we dont play those factions so who cares. 

Because we play against other factions 😅

[katadder]

Never stated PK is only playable in 2 crews, gave you examples of where I use him. 

I find him useful in loads of crews as he's a great 10ss beater who is very survivable.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

Just now, belorey said:

We are agree that Family need a defensive tech?

Niño need more durabilitie, he is (like most of the keyword) so soft and becomes and easy target.

Santiago and Papa Loco need something else too. I don't really know what i would change on then but they are the worst models in keyword (outside pistoleros, nobody use them 😢)

I took a fixed list to UK Nationals that included santiago and pistoleros and only lost one game. (only won one as well but still).  Family are fragile yes they do need defensive tech.  i think you have hit the nail on the head with the bravado ability but i would say make it a choice to gain shielded or Focused. not both

[im_open_to_suggestions]

2 minutes ago, Filox said:

Because we play against other factions 😅

So learn the faction you do play and build to beat them.  Look at the recent Vassel event thats still ongoing. A player that was new to guild has been taking every master at different times and has more than been holding his own.  

Its too easy to cry that guild are underpowered when you are not willing to make what we do have work. 

[Filox]

6 minutes ago, belorey said:

Santiago and Papa Loco need something else too. I don't really know what i would change on then but they are the worst models in keyword (outside pistoleros, nobody use them 😢)

I actually think that both of those models are reasonably good, without any needs for immediately changes or buffs. Papa Loco is straight a tech model, same as Riotbreaker. He is only there if you are against crews like Rasputina, Wong, Eurypides etc.

[belorey]

5 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

I took a fixed list to UK Nationals that included santiago and pistoleros and only lost one game. (only won one as well but still).  Family are fragile yes they do need defensive tech.  i think you have hit the nail on the head with the bravado ability but i would say make it a choice to gain shielded or Focused. not both

Sure, or give Focus and shielded but not the push... I don't know how change It, but they need to get an easy acces to shielded to improove the level.

[Filox]

13 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

So learn the faction you do play and build to beat them.  Look at the recent Vassel event thats still ongoing. A player that was new to guild has been taking every master at different times and has more than been holding his own.  

Its too easy to cry that guild are underpowered when you are not willing to make what we do have work. 

As I stated at the begging of the post, I'm currently top Guild Player in country and seven best overall according to Bag of Tools. I play a lot of Guild, and win against other currently stated as OP masters/crews. It's not about being able to pull off something. It's about having balances and useful models which can do more than just rots on the shelf of our rooms.