Launch Into Space trigger Wait What?! + Scrapyard Mines interaction

[Barmution]

Quote

Scrapyard Mines: (...) Friendly models may treat Scrap Markers within 6" as Pit Trap Markers (and vice-versa) for the purposes of friendly effects.

Quote

Launch Into Space: Once per Turn. Remove target Corpse Marker, Scrap Marker, or Scheme Marker. During the next Start Phase, Drop the removed Marker in this model's LoS, not touching terrain (...) 

As per this thread it's pretty clear that if you launch a Pit Trap marker, you drop a Pit Trap marker, however:

Quote

 Wait What?!: When Dropping the removed Marker, Drop an additional Marker of the same type in this model's LoS.

This trigger on Launch Into Space drops a Marker of the same type as the one that was launched, leading me to believe that the Scrapyard Mines ability will make Wait What?! drop a Scrap Marker instead of an additional Pit Trap Marker since the type is exactly what is being "overridden" by Scrapyard Mines. Or are these seperate references to the marker type, allowing the Wong to decide whether he uses the "may" part of Scrapyard Mines inside the scope of a single action?

Any thoughts?

[Scoffer]

I think "when dropping Marker ... drop an additional Marker of the same type" means "of the same type with the Marker you drop with this Action", not "with the removed Marker". So if you drop a Pit Trap the trigger drops another Pit Trap.

[Barmution]

1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

I think "when dropping Marker ... drop an additional Marker of the same type" means "of the same type with the Marker you drop with this Action", not "with the removed Marker". So if you drop a Pit Trap the trigger drops another Pit Trap.

Both action and trigger refers specifically to the removed marker (and it's type) so referencing it's type would intuitively be the type that's being overridden by Scrapyard Mines IMHO.

[Plaag]

if u launch pit trap, so u drop 2 pit traps

[solkan]

17 hours ago, Barmution said:

Both action and trigger refers specifically to the removed marker (and it's type) so referencing it's type would intuitively be the type that's being overridden by Scrapyard Mines IMHO.

The mistake you're making is trying to claim that the game somehow "forgets" what the marker was.  Treating a Pit Trap marker as a Scrap Marker and then removing it doesn't stop the Pit Trap Marker being a Pit Trap Marker.  The same way that treating a Mindless Zombie as a Corpse Marker doesn't stop the Mindless Zombie being a model.

 

[Barmution]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

The mistake you're making is trying to claim that the game somehow "forgets" what the marker was.  Treating a Pit Trap marker as a Scrap Marker and then removing it doesn't stop the Pit Trap Marker being a Pit Trap Marker.  The same way that treating a Mindless Zombie as a Corpse Marker doesn't stop the Mindless Zombie being a model.

 

Thank you for your reply. I'm open to me making a mistake here and this is not a hill I want to die on but I don't think the mistake I'm making is the one you're pointing out. I consider the marker being dropped by the action as literally the same marker that was removed. However I don't think the game somehow "forgets" that for the pupose of this action the player has elected to treat that Marker as being of the Scrap type and the type is what's being referenced in the trigger text.

Either way I'm fine with both outcomes and it's not something I'd argue in a tourney, I just wanted to be convinced about the common interpretation being right as I'm not seeing the logic of it given the card texts.

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, Barmution said:

Thank you for your reply. I'm open to me making a mistake here and this is not a hill I want to die on but I don't think the mistake I'm making is the one you're pointing out. I consider the marker being dropped by the action as literally the same marker that was removed. However I don't think the game somehow "forgets" that for the pupose of this action the player has elected to treat that Marker as being of the Scrap type and the type is what's being referenced in the trigger text.

Either way I'm fine with both outcomes and it's not something I'd argue in a tourney, I just wanted to be convinced about the common interpretation being right as I'm not seeing the logic of it given the card texts.

I think his point is that the marker is both a scrap marker and a pit trap marker when you remove it.

At no point is it ONLY a scrap marker.

[Barmution]

15 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think his point is that the marker is both a scrap marker and a pit trap marker when you remove it.

At no point is it ONLY a scrap marker.

That's reasonable but in that case I'd argue that Wong's player has a choice of which type of marker to drop.

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think his point is that the marker is both a scrap marker and a pit trap marker when you remove it.

At no point is it ONLY a scrap marker.

the ability says "may treat" as i remember, so u say that the pit trap is treated as scrap, but u launch pit trap, so pit trap must be landed

[Plaag]

i tried mah as leader, brew, wong, sparcs on public enemies, played with fun) 

[Barmution]

I don't know if this will clarify my point of view for you but I think we differ in what we view as the scope of Scrapyard Mines' effect.

If the only time you evaluate what type of Marker the Pit Trap is at the moment that you declare the action and trigger then I agree with your interpretation.

OTOH If the Marker type keeps being affected by Scrapyard Mines throughout the entire action then you have 2 more options:

1. The Marker type will be treated as whatever type you treated it as at the moment of declaring Into Space, resulting in the trigger producing Scrap
2. At any point where the text refers to the Marker type you get to choose as per Scrapyard Mines, resulting in the trigger producing Wong's choice of either Pit Trap or Scrap

@Plaag At no point have I argued that the first marker dropped is not a Pit Trap Marker if you launch a Pit Trap Marker. My question is whether the Marker type referred to in the Wait What?! trigger is affected by the Scrapyard Mines ability.

[regleant]

Launch into Space requires a Scrap Marker in the cost.  I think that assigns the type of marker you drop right there.  Scrap. No?

[Scoffer]

55 minutes ago, regleant said:

Launch into Space requires a Scrap Marker in the cost.  I think that assigns the type of marker you drop right there.  Scrap. No?

No. Launch Into Space says "drop the removed Marker". You pick a Marker from the table, put it next to Wong's card and return it to the table later. If Wong removes a Pit Trap he drops a Pit Trap, even if it was treated as a scrap. 

[regleant]

I understand your argument. I disagree with it. The cost is a Scrap Marker. You removed a Scrap Marker. You can only place a Scrap Marker. "May be treated as" is for specific effects while it is on the table and while it is within 6" of Sparks. 

[Scoffer]

10 minutes ago, regleant said:

May be treated as" is for specific effects while it is on the table and while it is within 6" of Sparks. 

That's why you treat a Pit Trap as a Scrap to pay the cost while it's next to Sparks, and drop a Pit Trap from space.

[touchdown]

1 hour ago, regleant said:

I understand your argument. I disagree with it. The cost is a Scrap Marker. You removed a Scrap Marker. You can only place a Scrap Marker. "May be treated as" is for specific effects while it is on the table and while it is within 6" of Sparks. 

You removed a marker that you are counting as both a scrap and a pit trap. I'm not sure of this but it would follow how the guilty work in Tormented. That you can treat them as enemy but you don't stop treating them as friendly. Since the marker is both kinds of markers, I would think you could drop either type.

[Maniacal_cackle]

A few things -

7 hours ago, Barmution said:

1. At any point where the text refers to the Marker type you get to choose as per Scrapyard Mines, resulting in the trigger producing Wong's choice of either Pit Trap or Scrap

This doesn't work, because the Pit Trap you're dropping is not within 6" of the model, so it can't be counted as scrap at this point.

3 hours ago, regleant said:

I understand your argument. I disagree with it. The cost is a Scrap Marker. You removed a Scrap Marker. You can only place a Scrap Marker. "May be treated as" is for specific effects while it is on the table and while it is within 6" of Sparks. 

When you place the same marker, you place the exact same marker (see Shenlong FAQ on four winds punch).

So the interpretation that you set the pit trap on Wong's card and then put it back is likely correct.

2 hours ago, touchdown said:

You removed a marker that you are counting as both a scrap and a pit trap. I'm not sure of this but it would follow how the guilty work in Tormented. That you can treat them as enemy but you don't stop treating them as friendly. Since the marker is both kinds of markers, I would think you could drop either type.

It is true that the marker can be both types of markers at a point in time, but by the time you drop it it is no longer a scrap marker (it isn't within 6" of that model with the ability).

[touchdown]

22 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is true that the marker can be both types of markers at a point in time, but by the time you drop it it is no longer a scrap marker (it isn't within 6" of that model with the ability).

This is an interesting point and I actually think you've convinced me but isn't it the other way around? You're treating a scrap as a pit trap not vice versa.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, touchdown said:

This is an interesting point and I actually think you've convinced me but isn't it the other way around? You're treating a scrap as a pit trap not vice versa.

I thought what was happening was an object that is physically a pit trap is launched into space (treated as a scrap).

So it comes back as a pit trap, since that is what it physically is.

Can totally do it with a scrap marker, but then the other ability is irrelevant (launch uses scrap by default?)

I don't play Bayou so could be confused.

[Barmution]

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This doesn't work, because the Pit Trap you're dropping is not within 6" of the model, so it can't be counted as scrap at this point.

Ok, I think I've pinpointed where I read this action differently from you:

You seem to be reading the action as something that partially resolves at the time the action is declared then "pauses" and finally resumes at the start of the next turn. My reading is that for the action to completely resolve you decide its effects at the time where the action is declared, then those effects are added to the game state to be executed at the start of the next turn, a bit like the lingering effect of Vasilisa's Needle And Thread if the target doesn't discard a card in that it's an effect that's not tracked by any specific mechanic like tokens.

My interpretation is that the "When" of the Wait What?! trigger tells you when the additional marker is dropped, the type is decided at the point in time when you are declaring the trigger and at that time you are treating the Pit Trap Marker as a Scrap Marker.