TFW: Lucius Episode, End of Episode State of Guild discussion

[4thstringer]

So, I thought that the end of episode discussion regarding the state of guild was excellent.  They did a really nice job of pointing out the issues in a way that I have struggled to put into words.  Its not a matter of "you can never beat that other faction".  But it is definitely "all of those other things are stronger versions of what we have".  

They were talking about the issues with the mobility, but I would point out we have a real lack of decent defense abilities and defense triggers in guild.   Things like incorp or terrifying are almost non-existent in guild.  No concealing auras, almost no hard to kill, and three keywords that literally might as well not have any defenses at all.     No anti-demise auras.   A real lack of anti-armor abilities, I don't think any irreducible attacks (Pale is a tactical, and isn't reliable for taking down armor).   

The lack of built in triggers is one that I have found rather noticable during play, but that may just be from playing against Von Schtook.

 

[Alerteddonkey42]

I thought the analysis of Guild in this episode was pretty spot on. Honestly, I've been playing with Outcasts more than Guild lately just due to the frustrations with Guild's design. As you said, you can definitely win with Guild, you are just at a bit of a handicap. I've played with a few other factions and against most factions in 3e. I really do believe that other factions just have an easier time getting the same effects as Guild. The lack of mobility is killer. I've come back to Guild recently just to see if my initial impressions were correct and all my crews feel painfully immobile. Scheming with Guild takes more work and I don't think we really kill any better than other factions. On top of all of this, Guild's mechanics don't feel as exciting and flashy as those of other factions (maybe this is because I've played Guild since the beginning of 2e and I've gotten too used to the themes, not sure). I do hope that guild gets a bit of a bump up, especially with all the talk I see about nerfing some of our best models (Pale rider and Agent 46). I am a little concerned about how long it may take to get any upward movement for Guild. We'll just have to wait and see. I don't think Wyrd have made their schedule for 3e changes clear yet (correct me if they have!). 

Side note: Every time I read the titles of these two third floor wars threads I first read them as "That Face When: Lucius Episode...." 

[theamazingmrg]

I listened to that segment on the way to work this morning and found myself agreeing with everything they said.  My last game was Hoffman against Molly (who, in my defence was the first Resser opponent I have ever actually played and I probably did handicap myself by choosing Hoffman but I've also committed to not changing Master until I've won with him!) and while I really enjoy the amount of pushes in Augmented (they can push forward faster than first appears)  I found myself completely unable to react in a timely manner when my opponent could fling Crooligans 30" across the table.  It also didn't help that the decent Augmented aren't cheap, so I never had enough models to cope with his spread across the board, especially when his Forgotten Marshal could easily summon more.

 

Add that to my terrible control hands (I never drew more than two cards above a 7 in any round) and terrible flips (how I flipped so many bad cards when my hand was also full of bad cards I'll never know!) and widespread Hard to Wound and I also had a real hard time killing anything, which is supposed to be what guild is good at.

 

It was a struggle, but it was the same struggle I had when I played Sonnia too.  It was just too difficult to do what needed to be done when the movement options are very basic.  I did manage to score full points for Claim Jump and that's the first time I've ever managed full points on a Scheme so it wasn't a complete failure!  And the look on the opponents face when the Peacekeeper charged Molly, and then Joss followed it up with an Obey was nice.  Shame I couldn't deal any damage worth a damn!

[DuBlanck]

3 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

I found myself completely unable to react in a timely manner when my opponent could fling Crooligans 30" across the table. 

I think teleporting summonable Hard to Wound 4ss Crooligans are the problem in your case there, not Guild.

Moving from Arcanists (largely mei and Colette) into Guild this year, Guild are slooow. Even playing mostly Lucius, with many little pushes and Obeys, everything feels pretty static.

To top that off, there's a big advantage in being able to take the middle ground early, and the Guild's traditional "shoot gud" strength isn't much use when there's more range-disrupting terrain and few opportunities to score VP without engaging enemies.

[theamazingmrg]

5 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

I think teleporting summonable Hard to Wound 4ss Crooligans are the problem in your case there, not Guild.

Moving from Arcanists (largely mei and Colette) into Guild this year, Guild are slooow. Even playing mostly Lucius, with many little pushes and Obeys, everything feels pretty static.

To top that off, there's a big advantage in being able to take the middle ground early, and the Guild's traditional "shoot gud" strength isn't much use when there's more range-disrupting terrain and few opportunities to score VP without engaging enemies.

Can't argue with that, although, tbf, I don't think Guild have much problem holding the middle ground.  I think its the holding the rest of the table at the same time that's the issue!

[DuBlanck]

It's less of a matter of damage output, rather that (bar Choff Man) models that are tough enough to survive running up to hold the centre don't often get there faster than the opponent - I've regularly had trouble being hemmed into my side of the field, be it on the flanks or in the middle, because my opponent can put chaff on my side of the halfway line before I can get there.

[Legislat]

Its often more efficient to bring the opponents to yourself (Bring it and Lure), but thats most often not a solution to scoring more points. Taking up a position is very important right now and sometimes its pretty hard to do so in guild. Thats why my most successful masters so far are Nellie, Lucius and Hoff just a bit behind the first two. 

Mobility is key. And thats the reason i consider MG as the only worth summon with Dashel if i have the cards. No wonder guild packed with lots of models with good old walking-with-no-alternatives-and-pretty-moderate-walk-stat is not in the spotlight.

[Trample]

I haven't played guild. I'm hoping to do so soon, but I find a lack of mobility difficult to see. Does Guild really lack that much mobility? When I see Lady J across the table I know she, as well or better than any other master in the game, can be in my deployment area immediately. There are several models with creep along, deadly pursuit, ride with me, and several with pushes. You have things like the Undercover Reporter and the entire Frontier faction. Sure, there isn't much flight in the faction and they aren't Ten Thunders or Zipp, but it isn't as if there aren't any options.

I'll looking forward to listening to the podcast. I don't know what was said on there, but I guess I just don't see a lack of mobility as a major barrier to their performance. 

[Xekros]

It's not that we don't have specific models with good mobility, it's that overall our options are primarily the Walk action, usually without Unimpeded. One of the most mobile models I've found in faction is the Witchling Stalker, and that's due to Unimpeded and Mv 7 if they start near a Handler. A major issue with things like Creep Along or Consolidate Power, is that they need to move towards a friendly model, which is incredibly unhelpful for moving up in the first place.

Lucius is considered a very mobile crew, as he has Entourage for 2" (only while unengaged) and various Obeys to make things walk (again) out of activation. Mercenaries, on the other hand, get a free 2" push at the start of each turn, regardless of engagement, and Ronin get another 3" when they activate. Dreamer can just throw Chompy across the entire table, and his summons happen on enemy models. Just as a couple of examples.

[Ogid]

I agree Guild may use some twists, but I'm not sure if this is the right approach. The "look at what other faction have, we should also have that" is flawed logic, each faction has different strong and weak points, just because Guild is good at shooting not everyone needs more guns, or nor every faction need a inhuman physiology model for example. Guild needs to work well and be competitive, but it doesn't need to be a copycat of other factions' strong points or have every kind of defensive tech in the game.

You could find interesting this thread (the first half of the first page at least, after that is all builds and NVB stuff). I was disapointed with NVB results in the UK meta (which were as bad as GUI btw) so opened a thread to put that in context. Some players pointed than at least in Russian meta they were doing better; that's a smaller meta with different rules (double master and single master DMH allowed) where NVB and also GUI were doing much better (in fact GUI is there the thrid most competitive faction tied with Outcast).

[Legislat]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

Some players pointed than at least in Russian meta they were doing better

Actually i am a from this meta. And it is really, really hard to compete with serious Dreamer, Seamus, Colette and similar crews even with double masters.

[Alerteddonkey42]

On 1/26/2020 at 3:43 AM, Ogid said:

just because Guild is good at shooting not everyone needs more guns

I don't even think we are the best at shooting so there is a flaw is this statement right there. 

On 1/26/2020 at 3:43 AM, Ogid said:

The "look at what other faction have, we should also have that" is flawed logic

I don't think the point is that Guild should have everything that every other faction has. The point is that we should have a way to compete with the mechanics of other factions. Currently, this is difficult. That could be due to a lack of power in Guild, too much power in some other factions, or a combination of both. 

[4thstringer]

On 1/26/2020 at 4:43 AM, Ogid said:

I agree Guild may use some twists, but I'm not sure if this is the right approach. The "look at what other faction have, we should also have that" is flawed logic, each faction has different strong and weak points, just because Guild is good at shooting not everyone needs more guns, or nor every faction need a inhuman physiology model for example. Guild needs to work well and be competitive, but it doesn't need to be a copycat of other factions' strong points or have every kind of defensive tech in the game.

You could find interesting this thread (the first half of the first page at least, after that is all builds and NVB stuff). I was disapointed with NVB results in the UK meta (which were as bad as GUI btw) so opened a thread to put that in context. Some players pointed than at least in Russian meta they were doing better; that's a smaller meta with different rules (double master and single master DMH allowed) where NVB and also GUI were doing much better (in fact GUI is there the thrid most competitive faction tied with Outcast).

The point is that Guild is most easily identified by the number of things the can't do.  Sure not every factions should be able to do everything, but its weird that that logic basically gets applied to guild and no other faction.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

The point is that Guild is most easily identified by the number of things the can't do.  Sure not every factions should be able to do everything, but its weird that that logic basically gets applied to guild and no other faction.

Guild may be a bit under the curve, but I think it has options (Armored crews, close combat, ranged combat, schemy crews, obeys...) and some of them not that common:

• More guns than any other faction and a lot of different flavours of gunlines.
• The best Rider: 4 factions still want one (TT got something similar tho).
• Bury shenanigans: Only Tara's crew can mess with buried models as hard as guild (and this also hurt the summoners of 2 factions)
• Summoners hunters: The faction with more options versus summons; and having also Agent 46 + Exorcist combo.
• Anti-Undead tech: Marshal.
• One of the most sturdy crews in the game: Augmented.
• Shenanigan heavy crews: Lucius and  Nellie.
• The only Inhuman Physiology model in the game.
• Steward: The only support other crews don't want to kill.
• Undercover: A minion back to square one!
• Some Obey shenanigans.
• ...

It's true it's mostly a straightforward faction (excluding things like Lucius), but there are players that like that.

[theamazingmrg]

On 1/28/2020 at 12:00 AM, Ogid said:

Guild may be a bit under the curve, but I think it has options (Armored crews, close combat, ranged combat, schemy crews, obeys...) and some of them not that common:

• More guns than any other faction and a lot of different flavours of gunlines.
• The best Rider: 4 factions still want one (TT got something similar tho).
• Bury shenanigans: Only Tara's crew can mess with buried models as hard as guild (and this also hurt the summoners of 2 factions)
• Summoners hunters: The faction with more options versus summons; and having also Agent 46 + Exorcist combo.
• Anti-Undead tech: Marshal.
• One of the most sturdy crews in the game: Augmented.
• Shenanigan heavy crews: Lucius and  Nellie.
• The only Inhuman Physiology model in the game.
• Steward: The only support other crews don't want to kill.
• Undercover: A minion back to square one!
• Some Obey shenanigans.
• ...

It's true it's mostly a straightforward faction (excluding things like Lucius), but there are players that like that.

I'm not sure my experience with Hoffman bears out the "Augmented are one of the sturdiest crews in the game" comment.  They pay the price for that Armor with the low Df and Wp, so they are taking hits more often, and lower Wounds so it only actually takes a couple of good hits to kill things.  But I am notorious for bad flips and drawing terrible control hands, so my experience is entirely anecdotal.

 

God bless the Steward though.

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

I'm not sure my experience with Hoffman bears out the "Augmented are one of the sturdiest crews in the game" comment.  They pay the price for that Armor with the low Df and Wp, so they are taking hits more often, and lower Wounds so it only actually takes a couple of good hits to kill things.  But I am notorious for bad flips and drawing terrible control hands, so my experience is entirely anecdotal.

 

God bless the Steward though.

Honestly, whenever someone points at hoffman as a reason to run guild, I go back to the fact that noone who wants to run hoffman wants to run him in guild over Arc, and just get salty all over again.

[Irritated Walrus]

5 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

I'm not sure my experience with Hoffman bears out the "Augmented are one of the sturdiest crews in the game" comment.  They pay the price for that Armor with the low Df and Wp, so they are taking hits more often, and lower Wounds so it only actually takes a couple of good hits to kill things.  But I am notorious for bad flips and drawing terrible control hands, so my experience is entirely anecdotal.

 

God bless the Steward though.

Remember to use your Power Tokens. While their Df and WP are low, you are often a  to the duel. 

[Irritated Walrus]

1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

Honestly, whenever someone points at hoffman as a reason to run guild, I go back to the fact that noone who wants to run hoffman wants to run him in guild over Arc, and just get salty all over again.

There is only one set up I prefer Hoff in Guild. A complete bruiser list where you put LLC on Miss Step and Joss to give every model in the crew Armor +2. Otherwise, he is significantly better in Arc. 

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Remember to use your Power Tokens. While their Df and WP are low, you are often a  to the duel. 

People use power tokens for def flips?

[Irritated Walrus]

3 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

People use power tokens for def flips?

Lol, I know that kind of goes against Guild's "kill em' all" code, but I often do since Hoff's Df is so low. Hopefully, by the time I'm in combat I have a bunch of them anyway. 

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Lol, I know that kind of goes against Guild's "kill em' all" code, but I often do since Hoff's Df is so low. Hopefully, by the time I'm in combat I have a bunch of them anyway. 

I've literally had do or die defensive flips and not thought to use them, even without having range for the demise.

[le_wahou]

Phiona might be a good reason to use Hoffman in guild. A bring it on a construct is an efficient action : you move Hoffman, and you get a heal for 1 AP on a henchman. That's not enough when you compare upgrades, but that's already one reason

[Irritated Walrus]

5 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I've literally had do or die defensive flips and not thought to use them, even without having range for the demise.

Well if you are going to die, and they aren't going to transfer to anyone else nearby, why not use them?

[DuBlanck]

I'm not well practiced with him at all, but I did not get the impression that Augmented were generating enough Power Tokens to use them both offensively and defensively.

[theamazingmrg]

10 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

I'm not well practiced with him at all, but I did not get the impression that Augmented were generating enough Power Tokens to use them both offensively and defensively.

Yeah, turn 1 I can get a power token (occasionally 2) on everyone.  Beyond that it gets much trickier as you need to spread out to achieve your objectives.  Power token self-generation isn't great (unless you're joss).