How do I deal with the Victoria crew ?

[Core101x]

Hello, 

 I been getting beat on by local Outcast player.

He runs mainly the Victoria crew.  I have every crew short of Zorida and Pandora. I always play for the schemes and strategy .  Please help. Thanks

[Ogid]

Hi. A bit more of info would make it easier...

Like some example of the crews you and the Outcast player usually runs and what is happening in your games, is he outscheming you? slicing your crew? both? Do you use double master list or single masters?...

[katadder]

Consider armour. Hinamatsu and vasilisa both help here.

Also teddy with certain crews.

The viks struggle with armour so this is always useful. Terrifying is handy too as the viks themselves are only wp5

[Core101x]

The Vic player always uses Big Jake, 3 Ronin and Hans. With his leftover points it differs on what he picks.

 I have used the Dreamer crew and Titania crew.  He slaughtered my dreamer crew which left me unable to achieve any points.  As for the Titania game he used Talor, hans and 2x ronin  with one of the Vics to wipe out Tuco, 3x Autumn knights and Gorar . He achieved dig their graves right of the bat. What little damage I did was healed off with Vanessa.  He also got off his other scheme. He did not even touch the strategy  which was Corrupted Idols. I was able to achieve hold up their forces for one point, and two points for corrupted idols. So he is always able to slice up my crew while achieving schemes and strategy points. 

I do not use double masters. I only have have a dozen games in with ME3. I have not played since ME1. The game is vastly different since then.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thought is the Viktorias themselves should be ripped apart pretty quickly by Stitched Together if you spam summon them. Also be pretty careful with advancing forward - they are super good at moving up the board.

I'll have my first game against them next month, hopefully, so will know more then.

[Ogid]

It may be a crew building issue

2 hours ago, Core101x said:

Tuco, 3x Autumn knights...

...I was able to achieve hold up their forces for one point...

Neither of the above are very good choices versus Vicks. Tuco has a few tricks, but has also low damage and a crew as fast as Vicks will pick him off right off the bat. Autums are great tarpits, but picking 3 with Tuco you'll lack damage. Hold up versus Vicks isn't the best option, that crew is highly mobile and full of glass cannons, you want them killed or as far as possible from your models. You need way more punch in that list.

 

In the dreamer's case, try including 1 or 2 Stitcheds; they aren't fast, but can really punish a model that dives carelessly into the crew (and versus an agressive player you won't get much time to LD anyway). Keep Serena next to Dreamer if they try to attack him to be able to redirect to her. Maybe consider including a Lure (Doppleganger/Hinamatsu), they have a ton of long range . Insidious Madness can be used to debuff enemies with a Tactical Action; it's very short range but it may pay off.

Not sure how is he using Hans; If he uses a lot of conditions to hinder your models, a wicked doll with Eldritch Magic may pay for himself quickly as long as you can keep it alive. Their models are spammy, so a few Inhuman Reflexes upgrades will keep your key models alive thanks to Butterfly Jump; Serena Bowman is a great model that fits in both crews, it has healing, punch and is sturdy. Iggy is another very good model of the faction, great for denial in scheme heavy pools, but also pack a punch, very squishy tho. Consider bringing a few SS to keep alive Masters/Henchmans when the Vicks rush them. Hinamatsu could work well, but only with IR to avoid being attacked several times by Ronins because she will melt versus them (and even with IR I'd bring also a few SS to block the first hits).

These are very general advices, but I hope it helps! Maybe also talk with your Outcast player and play a few coaching games with him.

[Regelridderen]

Viks likes their triggers and bonus actions, so stunning them is a way to go. They also have average WP so attacking that is preferable to Df.

They also like to be together, so drawing them apart via Lures and Pushes is also a thing. And if you can get them with an Execute trigger, you ignore their demise.

All of this points to the Woe-crew as a counter, with liberal use of models like Aversions.

[Ogid]

Check these 2 List, they should work reasonabily well versus Vicks:

• Titania (IR), Gorar, Killjoy (IR), Serena, Knight, Rougarou, Wicked Doll (AP), 8SS.

This is an alpha strike list that will try to kill at least one enemy models in the last activation of the first turn and another the first activation of the second turn with Titania (Aim towards Vanessa, Hans or Ronnins; not towards Master/Henchmans), then keep playing from there. The first turn try to save the pass tokens to get the initiative advantage in the second turn. Blood pact will go into Titania and the Autum Knight. Gorar is expected to replace the Rougarou or Serena (mind serena is your heal+condition removal). The Rougarou will push Titania the first turn forward (6 or 12'') so she may reach her choosen target. You can see Titania's combo explained here, use SS to get the triggers if needed (mind you can even "one-shot" a ronin with 1 weak damage mele attack + the bonus action if done right); after that the remaining SS and IR should keep Titania alive, but try not to leave her into charge range of both Vicks (even if she should be able to survive both Vick activations using SS and IR tho)

• Dreamer, LCB, Hinamatsu (IR), Teddy (IR), Serena, Stitched, Daydream (AP), 8SS.

More reactive crew than the above but with a strong early game focus and very scary to dive. IR should keep Hinamatsu and Teddy alive and the high cache is a good safeguard for Dreamer, LCB and Hinamatsu, the rest of the models needs careful positioning to not die to random , specially the daydream. If Vicks don't rush and keep the distance, Hinamatsu Lure will be used to bring a good target into carnage range. Summon Stitcheds or Insidious Madness and try to catch Hans in a Wp duel to unbury something and engage him if possible.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Viks likes their triggers and bonus actions, so stunning them is a way to go. They also have average WP so attacking that is preferable to Df.

They also like to be together, so drawing them apart via Lures and Pushes is also a thing. And if you can get them with an Execute trigger, you ignore their demise.

All of this points to the Woe-crew as a counter, with liberal use of models like Aversions.

He doesn't have Pandora, unfortunately

I like Ogid's direction with Dreamer, though am sceptical of Hinamatsu. I like the Dreamer models more, but have to admit lure is good.  Terrorise feels better in this matchup for gumming up the super aggressive enemy, however. Widow Weaver seems pretty awesome here, having the mobility to stay alive, ability to summon extra stitched, and terrorise is a great package.

Hans is the main ranged I'd worry about (especially with his ruthless), so engaging him with a willpower duel with summons should gum him up.

I'd also go with a second daydream +ap, leaving a 5 stone cache. Other than summon suits, you shouldn't have to soulstones too often.

Make extensive use of terrain and force them to engage you piecemeal for the first few turns. Your goal is to pick them off as you can, and power up your deck with ~10 lucid dreams removing weak cards by turn three. Don't forget to double or triple summon (stitched + daydream on dreamer + stitched on widow Weaver if able), but also he content with a simple alp summon to ease card pressure. They serve their purpose.

[Ogid]

Solid points. I'd usually go with 3 daydreams and 1 or 2 pacts and less cache; including instead 1 stitched and only 1 daydream with pact with a bigger cache is the "I'm scared" version.

The reason of those choices is Vicks is both a very scary fast mele crew and a okish gunline two in one. If they can't rush, they will hang back shooting until the crew is weak enough to go in (or until they force the other crew to advance). As Dreamer is worse in ranged combat, Terrorize won't help in that situation; but Lure will. It's also the reason I left WW out of the crew; unless terrain may cover her well, a high volume of ranged attacks will pick her off or force a ton of SS in defense.

Stitched + Daydream instead of 3 daydreams is worse for late game and for maneouver, but it's better for defense early. The extra cache is a "buffer" for the high damage of that crew. Vicks crew deal a ton of damage but it's also light in defensive tech. If the initial damage is minimiced with IR and SS, the counterattack may punish them heavily; but if the initial attack get some juicy kills, they can snowball hard. That's the idea of this crew, assume the worst case scenario for Dreamer (Savage Rush), and build to minimice that damage and hit back really hard, with Lure as a plan B in case they favor ranged attacks.

Being said that, of course adjust the list to your taste. WW may also Kidnap enemy models with "into the dream web" + Terrorize, it's just harder to set up without the Bandersnatch and leaves WW vulnerable. The extra summons and Daydreams will give a stronger mobility, deck and more models later in the game, but setting that up require the crew surviving the first turns. I don't have experience versus Vicks, so I went with the safest option; it doesn't mean it's the better.

[GentlemanChris]

Yeah, kill them first seems to be the best option. The later the game is and the more enemy models are still alive, you will have no chance to win the game. Additionally, each model you loose will hinder you to attack properly. 

Against Viks I play Pandora (stunning and misery crew) or Nekima with Matures as a first strike crew. Black Blood is nice. 

[Regelridderen]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

He doesn't have Pandora, unfortunately

Sure, but it doesn't mean, that other crews can't apply some of the same. Terrifying comes on many models and Lure is available on the Doppleganger and Hinamatsu – who are both great models in and of themselves. And the Carver ticks off all the boxes.

[Hawkoon]

Viks don't have much with 2" (only Taelor in keyword) so Inhuman resolve on Nekima/Teddy/Chompy/Hooded rider etc. is a good way to reduce their damage potential.

[Ogid]

9 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

Viks don't have much with 2" (only Taelor in keyword) so Inhuman resolve on Nekima/Teddy/Chompy/Hooded rider etc. is a good way to reduce their damage potential.

True, it make harder for them to deal damage, but they have still a few tricks to bypass it.

Battle Tempo will let them engage at the start of the turn (and in that case they should look for Concentrate+Attack looking for Severe, except in the Rider's case), then use Dragon Bite cheating/stonning the trigger to get an extra attack. Butterfly jump will avoid "instakills" in important models if a Vick plus any other model engage a model and start stonning/cheating "That one counts as Mine" (the model will avoid the extra attacks).

Vicks are very scary if they manage to get close and stay alive; their own flavour of coordinated attack, "free" charge, min3 stat7 attack and chained activation for 6APs of pure carnage is what should be avoided at all cost; and that means either demolish them as soon as they get close or as said above control them with stunned, slow and the like.

Ronins have also "on the move", making them even harder to pin down.

[Wyamphri]

Man, reading all this makes me wanna play viks 😛

[Regelridderen]

8 hours ago, Wyamphri said:

Man, reading all this makes me wanna play viks 😛

Their ‘power’ aside, I’d say there are a lot more interesting crews to play. 

[Corwin]

This game was not vs a seasoned viks but I had luck with a Lucius crew using a mature Nephilim and Agent 46 as my beaters.  The Mature killed one of the viks last activation of turn one. With butterfly jump and combat finesse he survived top of turn 2 to do more damage. 

[Wyamphri]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:52 PM, Regelridderen said:

Their ‘power’ aside, I’d say there are a lot more interesting crews to play. 

That's kinda disappointing to hear :c guess I'll wait for Nephilim stuff for a beater crew 

[Regelridderen]

16 minutes ago, Wyamphri said:

That's kinda disappointing to hear :c guess I'll wait for Nephilim stuff for a beater crew 

Don't take my word to spoil your fun. I wouldn't find it interesting to play any straightforward beater crew – which is hilarious, as those are usually the kind of armies I start out with for any game system, and I love the 'idea of the all-powerful swords(wo)man'.

[Adran]

21 minutes ago, Wyamphri said:

That's kinda disappointing to hear :c guess I'll wait for Nephilim stuff for a beater crew 

Interesting is in the eye of the beholder. What Regelridderen finds interesting might be completely different to you. If you think the Viks are interesting, then its worth giving them a try. (or at leats look in the outcast section where peope are looking at the crew, rather than how another faction needs to beat it

[Wyamphri]

I keep reading it all over. How terrifying they are but boring. It sucks hearing it but I know I might still like em, just disappointing to hear, yet again. 

Still will wait on Nephilim stuff instead of getting Viks for the time being. Doesn't mean I won't get em down the road haha

[Regelridderen]

@Wyamphri they might not need to be. The Outcasts have plenty of other keywords to mix in. Yet compared to creepy kids, redneck goblins, murderous doctors and mad hatters, western katana chicks are bound to come out a little vanilla. 

[Core101x]

A big thank you to all who have commented on this. Next time I get a chance to play him I will have a better understanding of the match.