Is Archie the bees knees?

[Zebo]

I think maybe the problem (if there's a problem) is in his cost, and not in his rules. 

In 10ss he still would be hired? I suppose at least in Molly it would, since he is hired out of keyword so usually. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Pretty certain he’d still be hired at 12 outside of keyword. He’s better than the Dead Rider, and I’d hire him at 12 in most of my resser crews.

[DuBlanck]

28 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I think maybe the problem (if there's a problem) is in his cost, and not in his rules. 

I still strongly disagree with the design decision to compress costs to 2-10ss (bar one or two exceptions, and Masters). It limits the ability to balance via costing, with effectively no benefit at all.

You probably would have to neuter Archie (relative to current incarnation) to make him worth 10ss, whereas you could simply increase his cost by one or two stones and he'd be costed more approrpiately.

[Zebo]

Archie is actually 9ss, so going up 1ss seems quite logical if it's becoming a must even out of keyword.

[Ogid]

Agree that if Archie is appearing in every list, then there is probably a problem with the model; not saying it is breaking the game, but it needs to be watched. As @Zebo says, maybe with just a +1SS cost he will fall in line again. He is an important part of the Molly crew, so any nerf need to be done with care.

30 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

Or they will up the cost for OOK models and I wouldn't mind this approach because I dislike a lot the competitive list n M2e where everyone was fielding the same things! A +2-3 ss tax would maybe prevent every masters taking him OOK without the need to nerf him directly? what do you think?

Terrible idea imo, not every crew have the tools to deal with each scenario and going OOK is needed to have a fair fight. With a +2/3 SS tax this would become a "rock paper scissors" game with few room to adapt. It'd be better if the underperforming models get buffed and the overperforming get tunned down a notch.

I could see the posibility to have some model locked to a particular keyword (they only can be hired if the leader share a keyword with them) thanks to a new ability (something like "Loyalist"). That way some crews could have more optimiced models designed from them without these becoming the mew meta OOK pick for every other master.

On 10/16/2019 at 10:08 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

But he is also overhyped. He is very susceptible to counter charges and dying. He is the king of scheme runners, but struggles with big fights where he is taking big hits.

Well... Terrifying 12, H2W, 11 Wds and self-healing in a model with Leap and Flurry (with min damage 3)... He has a similar defensive stats than a Rogue Necromancy but he is much more mobile and can deal a ton of damage... I wouldn't complain about his ability to stand a fight.

Take him out requires a lot of resources, and he has the mobility to stay away or engage on his terms.

[Myyrä]

While Archie is definitely good, half the reason he's becoming overly popular is that there are no good alternatives.

Resser Henchmen are in the 9-10ss range and, apart from Valedictorian and Vincent, they can only make two attacks with weak damage of 2 per activation. Why would I ever pay 10ss for something I can get for 5-6ss? You might think the added durability is nice, but durability is useless if the model is so unthreathening that no one even bothers to try and kill it. Enforcers are at a slightly better place, but even two min damage 3 attacks don't really compare favorably to those cheaper models or masters.

This problem isn't even unique to Ressers. All factions have a ton of useless expensive models at that 9-11ss range. This leads to a situation where every list only comprised of the good stuff within faction unless the keyword has some super powerful syngergies, as is the case with Yan Lo for example. You can't really blame players for paying 1ss OOK premium for that flurry, when it lets the model do 50-100% more damage.

If you ask me, the solution here isn't necessarily to nerf Archie, but to buff most of the other stuff at the same SS range. 10ss model should be able to fit 3 actions worth of value into a single activation, be that because of Flurry or something like that or powerful action that is equivalent of an action used for attacking or moving. Models with powerful support abilities obviously don't have to fit into this mold.

[Fetid Strumpet]

This. I still think Archie would show up very commonly in all resser crews even if that step was taken, but it is definitely true that most of the resser Henchmen in the high cost brackets are pretty awful.

[Mycellanious]

2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

This. I still think Archie would show up very commonly in all resser crews even if that step was taken, but it is definitely true that most of the resser Henchmen in the high cost brackets are pretty awful.

There are 11 Resser henchman. I've heard significant complaint about 3 of them (Sybelle, Phillip, and Datsue Ba, and tbh they look fine to me). But maybe I've missed a thread? What other henchman are there that are so bad?

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Mycellanious said:

There are 11 Resser henchman. I've heard significant complaint about 3 of them (Sybelle, Phillip, and Datsue Ba, and tbh they look fine to me). But maybe I've missed a thread? What other henchman are there that are so bad?

It's the henchmen that are so insignificant no one bothers to even talk about them.

[Mycellanious]

Just now, Myyrä said:

It's the henchmen that are so insignificant no one bothers to even talk about them.

Such as?

[Myyrä]

4 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Such as?

I really have to spell it out for you? Anna Lovelace, Asura Roten and Mortimer.

[Inryhk]

Are they ? People were recommending both Asura and Mortimer in some Seamus crews. Thought Mortimer along with some other versitale models had some merits but did not check for myself yet.

 

But that's off topic I guess. I've only just recently started playing so it is kinda discouraging that there already is a character that introduces such an imbalance into this faction. I know it's blatantly clear that he is too powerful because of the fact that he is out of stock and appears in most recommendations on this forum. It would be best to have many options that could fill in for him especially for players that value theme, and playing with models they like. But from what I understand the problem goes a little deeper than just this model. It seems like some crews/models are a little bit underwhelming or maybe have more of the niche strengths compared to their counterparts in other factions. But the niche nature is what drew me to Ressurectionists in the first place on the other hand.

[Mycellanious]

16 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I really have to spell it out for you? Anna Lovelace, Asura Roten and Mortimer.

I'd actually really appreciate it if you spelled it out for me so I could understand the situation better. Anna has a solid dmg track auto-suited for 3/5/6 and heals her 1 and real powerful abilities.

Are they insignificant compared to the other factions, or are they just insignificant because Archie exists? 

[Mycellanious]

41 minutes ago, Inryhk said:

I know it's blatantly clear that he is too powerful because of the fact that he is out of stock 

Haha, tbf that could be said about just about all M3E products right now XD

[Thedeadclaw]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

I really have to spell it out for you? Anna Lovelace, Asura Roten and Mortimer.

That's kindof a rude way to put it, especially since you're at least kindof wrong? I can't speak to Anna or Mortimer, but I've had a lot of good Asura results, and I've seen others play with good results with her. She's definitely not a "take every round" choice, but I think she's good value. She's very hard to kill, the "Rotenburg Residents" ability is very significant in gameplay, she has a 2/3/5 spread, she can aoe heal friendly undead, she summons and she can pseudo obey. I'm very sold on her as a very viable and well costed model. I'm surprised so many people are sleeping on her.

[Inryhk]

Well, yeah I guess it also comes with popularity but it is kinda weird that he is the only 2E Ressers boxes on store that is "Temporarily Out of Stock".  But I  guess the fact that he is recommended in most masters crew compositions topic is a bigger factor here.

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Inryhk said:

Well, yeah I guess it also comes with popularity but it is kinda weird that he is the only 2E Ressers boxes on store that is "Temporarily Out of Stock".

Why'd Archie sell out?  He's the only 2E Resser box that got a hat in the Nightmare edition box.

[Thedeadclaw]

7 minutes ago, solkan said:

Why'd Archie sell out?  He's the only 2E Resser box that got a hat in the Nightmare edition box.

He was actually sold out before 3E's launch. My theory is the stocks were low and they held some back for the Gencon sale knowing he's get the hat, and they're waiting for restocks on him to rerelease.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’d personally not recommend Asura for Seamus, or the majority of resser masters to be honest. I wonder if those using her and getting great results think they can use her reanimate bonus action to cause the just summoned Zombie to interact, which she actually can’t.

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I'd actually really appreciate it if you spelled it out for me so I could understand the situation better. Anna has a solid dmg track auto-suited for 3/5/6 and heals her 1 and real powerful abilities.

Are they insignificant compared to the other factions, or are they just insignificant because Archie exists? 

Crew building is a portfolio decision problem, so decisions about including models are not as simple as answering the question about whether a model is better than Archie. You have to know whether the portfolio including that specific model is better than all the viable alternative portfolios. Answering this question comprehensively is rather difficult as the value of the portfolio is determined by a stochastic 2-player game of imperfect information that also involves many other decisions.

So, even if we wake up tomorrow and see that Archie now has stats equivalent to a mindless zombie, you probably still won't want to take Anna to your transmortis crew, because you can take Valedictorian instead or drop one Undergraduate and take Kirai, or do one of the millions of other possible things.

[Thedeadclaw]

16 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I’d personally not recommend Asura for Seamus, or the majority of resser masters to be honest. I wonder if those using her and getting great results think they can use her reanimate bonus action to cause the just summoned Zombie to interact, which she actually can’t.

Nope, that's not a thing, although it would definitely make her more versatile. Just the sheer utility on her combined with being super survivable and having a decent damage spread makes her so valuable. Plus there's lots of undead in the faction besides MZs, and while that does only make it a psuedo obey, you're creating game imbalances all over. You can wound an enemy model while healing your own. You can kill an enemy model and immediately replace it with one of your own. You can bring summons to an otherwise summonless list. You make zombies that can score VP for you but never for your opponent. She's decently fast, given her size, and she just never dies. Asura is good. I know a lot of you won't agree, but I also feel fairly sure someone's going to make a spicy list using her that'll change your mind sometime in the next two years. (It might take wave 2 releases to finally break her into the meta, but she's already good enough to play at high tiers of play, imo, and once she has a reason for people to try her in tourneys more I think results will start speaking for themselves.)

I really like Asura, And I'd probably be campaigning more about her if my focus wasn't so heavily on Puppets this edition, but she's nowhere near unplayable. She's really damn useful, so long as you take her as a utility crew. She feels a lot, in playstyle, like a resser version of henchman power level Mah Tucket, and given how good the Mah results have been...

[Mycellanious]

14 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Crew building is a portfolio decision problem, so decisions about including models are not as simple as answering the question about whether a model is better than Archie. You have to know whether the portfolio including that specific model is better than all the viable alternative portfolios. Answering this question comprehensively is rather difficult as the value of the portfolio is determined by a stochastic 2-player game of imperfect information that also involves many other decisions.

So, even if we wake up tomorrow and see that Archie now has stats equivalent to a mindless zombie, you probably still won't want to take Anna to your transmortis crew, because you can take Valedictorian instead or drop one Undergraduate and take Kirai, or do one of the millions of other possible things.

so in this complicated portfolio decision problem, if we see a recurring pattern of singular model showing up in a significant amount of lists, regardless of what the other player brings (thus extremely simplifying the 2-player aspect of it) and particularly if this model is taken OOK even when there is no specific syngergy, when the solution to the complicated problem is "take this model, use this playstyle, ignore all other playstyles because they are generally inferior, is this not an indication that said model is overtuned, or at least unhealthy for the game? If you have other criteria for determining whether a model is too powerful or too weak I would love to hear it. 

[Myyrä]

3 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

so in this complicated portfolio decision problem, if we see a recurring pattern of singular model showing up in a significant amount of lists, regardless of what the other player brings (thus extremely simplifying the 2-player aspect of it) and particularly if this model is taken OOK even when there is no specific syngergy, when the solution to the complicated problem is "take this model, use this playstyle, ignore all other playstyles because they are generally inferior, is this not an indication that said model is overtuned, or at least unhealthy for the game? If you have other criteria for determining whether a model is too powerful or too weak I would love to hear it. 

It would be evidence of Archie being overtuned if you could also prove that those crews also win more than they should. If they don't it can just mean that player perception of Archie is overly positive or there are no viable alternatives within the faction. Most likely it's some combination of the three.

[Mycellanious]

14 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It would be evidence of Archie being overtuned if you could also prove that those crews also win more than they should. If they don't it can just mean that player perception of Archie is overly positive or there are no viable alternatives within the faction. Most likely it's some combination of the three.

what do you mean by win more than they "should?" As you said list building is a dynamic and difficult process, and so is Malifaux. Two player can run the same lists into each other twice back to back, with the same strats and schemes, but do to individual decision during the game have wildly different outcomes. So but what metric should we use to determine whether one crew "should" beat another crew, and even more so how can we possibly tell whether the inclusion of one particular model granted a win where its exclusion would have guaranteed a loss? It seems like an impossible metric to use with any accuracy. Instead, I think its better to look at how often a model is chosen OOK, or with how how many different crews its taken OOK keyword as better metrics for establishing whether a model is overtuned, and I think looking at how little a model is chosen within its own keyword is a better metric for identifying undertuned models, particularly if its being replaced by an OOK model. 

[Myyrä]

4 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

what do you mean by win more than they "should?" As you said list building is a dynamic and difficult process, and so is Malifaux. Two player can run the same lists into each other twice back to back, with the same strats and schemes, but do to individual decision during the game have wildly different outcomes. So but what metric should we use to determine whether one crew "should" beat another crew, and even more so how can we possibly tell whether the inclusion of one particular model granted a win where its exclusion would have guaranteed a loss? It seems like an impossible metric to use with any accuracy. Instead, I think its better to look at how often a model is chosen OOK, or with how how many different crews its taken OOK keyword as better metrics for establishing whether a model is overtuned, and I think looking at how little a model is chosen within its own keyword is a better metric for identifying undertuned models, particularly if its being replaced by an OOK model. 

Popular decisions are not always good and good decisions are not always popular. That's why decisions should be based on evidence. That includes any decisions about nerfing Archie. Sometimes getting good evidence is hard.