Too Wicked to be intended? Obey and Disengage.

[Ogid]

I found a game interaction that I'm not sure if it's intended or not.

The case: An Controlled model find a way to be attacked while controled, relenting isn't legal but cheating a low card it's.

Situation:

• Model engaged with Hinamatsu/The Grootslang,
• Zoraida or a Bokor obeys it to disengage,
• That let the engaging model (Hina/Groot) perform a normal attack thanks to wicked
• Zoraida's player control both flips, being able to cheat a low card for the obeyed model if needed.
• Result: Damage flip with  and probably an onslaught trigger in Hinamatsu's case.
• The obyed model choose to push 0''

If this is tested and intended, then no problem. If not... maybe letting the owner player (and not the controler) make (and cheat) all the defensive flips when obeyed wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Quote

Disengage

Can only be declared while engaged.

One enemy model engaging this model (opponent’s choice) may take a y Action targeting this model...

Disengage allows an enemy model to take an attack. I'm not certain, but I suspect that if you're controlling something, then 'enemy model' for disengage will be one of your friendly ones.

Thus the enemy could use a melee attack to stop you from obey-disengaging, but not your own models perhaps?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Althoughhhh I think that when you obey something, 'friendly' and 'enemy' stay relative to the model... So perhaps that is wrong.

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is probably legal, but not as powerful as it first appears.

After all, you still have to win the duel with Zoraida, then cheat a few cards. If you're able to win the first duel, you could have just obeyed your own model to attack.

[Adran]

It is legal. It was a rarely used tactic in previous editions where it was more powerful. There is a lot of set up, and the model has to fail a duel under its owners control before it is put in that situation, so it's not that much worse than them losing a duel to lady justice. 

[Ogid]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is probably legal, but not as powerful as it first appears.

After all, you still have to win the duel with Zoraida, then cheat a few cards. If you're able to win the first duel, you could have just obeyed your own model to attack.

I'm not sure how good it would be in game, but the advantage over obeying your model is you control both flips. So depending on how it goes, you could cheat with Hinamatsu a high card or cheat with the controled model a low card to rig the duel. Example versus a df5 model.

• Hinamatsu flip 7, 10
• Controled flip 13; Zoraida cheat flip of the controled model for a 3
• No accuracy mod and Onslaught trigger; let's say 3 damage.
• Disengage push 0'' (choosen by Zoraida)
• (Onslaught attack) Hinamatsu flip 3, 6
• Controled flip 8; Zoraida cheat flip for a 5
• Accuracy mod ; 2 damage.

Used 2 low cards (2 and a 5) to guarantee 2 successful hits.

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

It is legal. It was a rarely used tactic in previous editions where it was more powerful. There is a lot of set up, and the model has to fail a duel under its owners control before it is put in that situation, so it's not that much worse than them losing a duel to lady justice. 

Ty! Good to know it's intended. But It doesn't need that much set up imo...

Anyway, I note it in my list of dirty tricks to never use in pick up games XDD

[Adran]

Well for set up you need to hire a model with obey and a model with wicked, and then get the target in close enough range to both. Then you need to win the obey duel and beat the Tn. And then you make the duel between the two models. Sure, you have the ability to cheat them both, but that is still potentially needing resources from your hand. ( The number of times I've had the attacker flip so low I have had to cheat both flips is not inconsiderable, especially if you're trying to get a suit for a trigger). 

It's a good idea to know about it, but I doubt you would find it a good option in most games. 

[Jesy Blue]

Good use to cheat that black joker in your hand for the defence.

[Ogid]

It's not the world destroyer combo and I won't hire an obey model and a wicked model only to set that up, that's for sure. But it's quite powerful and something to keep in mind when playing those crews and a wicked model fits (however it's true there is counterplay and it could be resource intensive... it's not that good as It seemed initially). I thought about his for 2 crews, but I'm sure other factions will have their own versions:

• NVB with Zoraida: With the Grootslang to Slow the controled model and disengage him if I need him for schemes, or to get a 4 or even 5 damage hit. Probably the best crew for this trick (Hinamatsu would also work, but the Grootslang is better in this case)
• TT with Youko: Blackmail (SS or cheat for trigger) a model engaged with Hinamatsu... the other player may prevent this by discarding 2 cards; but that's a win with Youko anyway (she draws 2 cards and reduce the other player hand to 3 cards...)

Maybe the worst part for new players is the Gotcha! moment this may cause.

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

Good use to cheat that black joker in your hand for the defence.

Hehe, that's one use; but unless I'm playing Zoraida, I'd probably hoard it to not get screwed at some random flip later.

[katadder]

i do tend to take hinamatsu in zoraida so in theory could get 4 out of activation attacks for 1 of zoraidas. very card intensive though

[CD1248]

Just saying, but for Zoraida dumping those cards to make it happen is essentially a resource-neutral act, since she's going to discard and draw back to 6 anyway. The only hand-state that really matters for her is if she runs out of cards while she still has things to cheat for.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, katadder said:

i do tend to take hinamatsu in zoraida so in theory could get 4 out of activation attacks for 1 of zoraidas. very card intensive though

It could be even better... if she uses burnt out in Hinamatsu, it would be 4 attacks in her own activation, the obey attack, plus the 2 rigged ones with the disengage (getting ensorcer); plus the extra ones triggered by Onslaught. lol. It's savage but pretty overkill tho, what would it need that number of attacks to die??

At least masters cannot be obeyed, so they are immune to this rigged disengage attack trick.

[DumbLuck]

The obey to disengage is legal, and a wicked model can take an attack and you can spend tons of cards to make it work.  However the suits won't matter because models and actions taken during a disengage can't declare triggers. (under disengage on page 22 of the rulebook)

So in Hini's case you're better off just obeying her to attack because she has an onslaught trigger and obeying her will let the trigger happen.  

[Ogid]

8 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

The obey to disengage is legal, and a wicked model can take an attack and you can spend tons of cards to make it work.  However the suits won't matter because models and actions taken during a disengage can't declare triggers. (under disengage on page 22 of the rulebook)

So in Hini's case you're better off just obeying her to attack because she has an onslaught trigger and obeying her will let the trigger happen.  

Quote

Wicked: When this model makes a successful  Action generated by an enemy model's Disengage Action, this model may resolve the Action's normal effects (including Triggers) instead of reducing the enemy model's Push distance.

 

[DumbLuck]

I stand corrected, foiled by the wicked rules.  So, sure it could work rules wise, but you won't be in control of the target model for the onslaught attack, as the first attack/disengage would have been fully resolved.  The opposing player would get to flip and cheat for the trigger attack, but If you're using Zorida and you have just enough cards to pull it off and you can replenish your hand after the activation, then it might be worth it.  But you're looking at 3 or 4 cards, if you manage to cheat the damage, for one AP, that leaves you pretty empty handed for the other 2 AP and you're probably going to want to save some of those for her other Obeys and an ensorcel trigger .  Unless you use her bonus action in the middle of her activation, but then you're giving your opponent a significant card advantage to make it happen again.  I personally am not seeing the benefit of it, but there could be some odd niche application for it.  

[Ogid]

29 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

So, sure it could work rules wise, but you won't be in control of the target model for the onslaught attack, as the first attack/disengage would have been fully resolved.  The opposing player would get to flip and cheat for the trigger attack,

That's a good point... the one gaining the extra action is Hinamatsu not the controled model and the Disengage (action declared while controled) ends at the push; so she can only rig the first attack but not the triggered one... interesting.

This trick may be card intensive, but only if the flips don't go in your way; if your model flips a 10 and the other a 3; then there is no need to cheat.

[Kharnage]

On 9/28/2019 at 6:10 PM, DumbLuck said:

I stand corrected, foiled by the wicked rules.  So, sure it could work rules wise, but you won't be in control of the target model for the onslaught attack, as the first attack/disengage would have been fully resolved.  The opposing player would get to flip and cheat for the trigger attack, but If you're using Zorida and you have just enough cards to pull it off and you can replenish your hand after the activation, then it might be worth it.  But you're looking at 3 or 4 cards, if you manage to cheat the damage, for one AP, that leaves you pretty empty handed for the other 2 AP and you're probably going to want to save some of those for her other Obeys and an ensorcel trigger .  Unless you use her bonus action in the middle of her activation, but then you're giving your opponent a significant card advantage to make it happen again.  I personally am not seeing the benefit of it, but there could be some odd niche application for it.  

Wicked states that you resolve the attack, including triggers, before the model disengages. Does that not mean you wouldn't stand still until her Onslaught attack is done?

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Wicked states that you resolve the attack, including triggers, before the model disengages. Does that not mean you wouldn't stand still until her Onslaught attack is done?

I would say no, because triggers causing actions tells us that the new action would not be resolved until everything else is resolved (page 12)

If a Trigger generates an Action, that Action is an independent Action from the Action that generated it. The Trigger takes effect per its timing structure, but the model taking the Action cannot do so until all other effects (including other Triggers) have been resolved.

So whilst Wicked tells us to resolve the trigger, the core rules tell us that further actions from the trigger won't start until the end of the current action.  I don't think anything in the Wicked rules suggest it would override this rule.

[Kharnage]

16 hours ago, Adran said:

So whilst Wicked tells us to resolve the trigger, the core rules tell us that further actions from the trigger won't start until the end of the current action.  I don't think anything in the Wicked rules suggest it would override this rule.

So what to your estimation is the point of the "including triggers" phrase at all? What changes where people would be otherwise confused?

[Adran]

7 hours ago, Kharnage said:

So what to your estimation is the point of the "including triggers" phrase at all? What changes where people would be otherwise confused?

Because you will then resolve all the after resolving/ after succeeding triggers that don't generate extra actions before the disengage push. The big difference is probably for "after resolving push this model" in which you can't then just push to re-engage the model which disengaged. 

EDIT - Also if you didn't include the line about resolving triggers, you wouldn't resolve any triggers in a wicked strike.