Issues for possible Errata

[Angelshard]

I'd love to see a rebalancing of the effigies.

Some are just so much better than others. I do realise that one needs to take in faction balance and abilities into account, plus the emissary and how much you can gain from the effigy upgrade, but the difference between mysterious effigy and arcane is glaring. 

My personal ranking is:

1. Arcane. An offensive dispel and a really strong aura that can quickly empty an opponents hand. 

2. Shadow. Giving don't mind me on a 7, with a possible push on top is really strong and concealment is one of the best protections against ranged threats.

3. Lucky. The slow attack is an ap Well spent against some models and anyone who's played or played against Som'er knows how good top decking your cheat card is. 

4. Hodgepodge. The heal isn't bad and a card for a soulstone is almost always a good trade. Especially when you get it for doing something you would do anyway. 

5. Carrion. Mostly a tech piece, but the aura can be devestating against some crews and models and the heal isn't bad although ressers have a lot of healing. 

6. Brutal. Pinebox is interesting when copied, but otherwise a gimmick. The aura could be good if it didn't only work in the models own activation, as it is I'd rather just have the hodgepodge heal or use a Governors proxy. 

7. Mysterious. The lure is in a faction with access to a lot of models with lure and a better Stat and an aura that honestly doesn't do much (it had the same aura in m2e, without a TN, and it was meh there too). 

While the exact ranking might wary from person to person the value of the effigies is just too great, in my opinion. 

[Ogid]

Yep, the faction really matters. Things like condition removal, interacts or conditions are great; but the other effigies aren't that behind tbh.

For example Carrion is a legit one, the heal requires a 5 instead of a 7 (Hodgepodge), the aura is really good and it's also in a faction where Archie/Forgotten is (Accomplice triggers Fading).

Or Mysterious isn't an useless model by any means. The Lure may be used to reposition allied model before accomplice into them, which may put a dangerous model in range of using 2/3 actions to attack and it's in a faction with the Puppet theme, so it's a tanky doll for Vasilisa to scoop up forward or inflict Staggered with (and his scrap may be recicled by Widow Weaver / Vasilisa). The Lure stat is a bit weak considering the TN (an 8 for the above trick is a bit expensive/unreliable, stat 5 would had been way better); the aura it's a bit harder to leverage than others with how mele focused is NVB, and maybe a notch less powerful than others (still useful tho); but even with those 2 small disadvantages for 4SS is useable.

[Angelshard]

@Ogid I never claimed that any of the effigies are useless. Their front card alone is almost worth 4 stones. I just feel that the value differential of the effigies varies too much. 

Yes carrion has a heal, but personally I don't see him unless the opponent has declared something you feel you can use the aura to counter. 

Mysterious lure can be used yes, but there are plenty of better options in neverborn for moving a model around, including lure on other models. 

The aura isn't decent. It was bad on the effigy in m2e and it was bad as an upgrade on lynch. Yes the idea is good, mindgames are always fun, but the actual effect is negible. Every time you cheat last it doesn't matter and if it's an important duel both of you will cheat high regardless. The effect of being able to bait high cards or get a hidden trigger out just doesn't happen, in my experience. 

I've yet to take or see anyone else take a mysterious effigy in m3e, except with a fate upgrade to save stones. 

[Adran]

I don't see such a difference between arcane and mysterious, but part of that is because to use those auras they need to be close to the enemy, and the arcane can't do much while engaged, whilst the mysterious can, and even has a chance to heal keeping it around longer. 

The mysterious aura is best when you know you will do multiple attacks over the turn.  It takes several cheats to show its power, and you might not always gain much advantage. In effect it removes their advantage in cheating second

[Fetid Strumpet]

Only real thing I’d change in the carrion effigy is a generic heal rather than stitch up. Too many masters and high value models aren’t undead for stitch up to be universally useful in anything but a Molly Crew.

[Angelshard]

@Adran having an unsuited R6" condition removal on a survivable 4 stone versatile model, this alone makes it better that mysterious effigy, in my opinion.

The arcane aura creates a bubble that the opponent really don't want to enter or you can walk into range of an opposing model and then use accomplice to charge something into it and cost him extra cards to cheat. 

Mysterious is an annoyance, but it rarely results in the same direct rescource drain that arcane does. At least in my experience. 

[LexLock]

I think leaps are too good across the board. Any scheme runner with a leap is in a league above even dedicated schemers without one. As they are now a leap can allow you to place two scheme markers a turn and acts as pseudo Don't Mind Me.

 

Either leaps shouldn't be able to be taken while engaged (Like Fly With Me or Ambush) or they should be treated as a disengage for the purpose of scheming (Jumping out of someones reach doesn't seem that different from walking or flying, they're still gonna take a swing at you).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don’t disagree with your assessment, but I do disagree with your fix. Leap is super powerful and they gave it to too many models, but the fix isn’t to nerf leap, it’s to claw leap back from the models that shouldn’t have it, and potentially replace with nimble.
 

Also the cost structure for leap never seems to be taken into account. During his time as lead designer Justin said it always surprised him how good models just became if he gave them leap.

If there was an upgrade available that could just give a model leap what would it need to cost to stop every crew from always taking it every time? Granted that is combining abilities so that’s not the actual true cost of leap but I do think most models that do have it are undercosted as well.

But its here so we just have to deal with it.

[Ogid]

Leap (mobility in general) is very very good both in beaters and schemers, but it really depends on the stat and if it's suited or not. Requiring a 3 or a 7 for the leap to go off it's quite different, specially if the model can't use SS or if the faction has little card draw/cicle.

[SerZaka]

8 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I don’t disagree with your assessment, but I do disagree with your fix. Leap is super powerful and they gave it to too many models, but the fix isn’t to nerf leap, it’s to claw leap back from the models that shouldn’t have it, and potentially replace with nimble.

I don't think that's correct. If an ability is to strong removing it from some models doesn't fix it. 

Anyway I don't know if this is the case . Like @Ogid said  the integrated suit is what really make the difference here .

I still think that it is the best bonus action in the whole game . If there was a model with 1wd, blank card and just a 3+ leap with integrated suit for 5ss I would still think about taking it in my crew. I think that this says a lot. Hell, give it By Your Side and I would take 2 of them in every list xD

 

[DuBlanck]

I agree with both on Leap - too many models with powerful Place actions, and a bunch of them are too easy.

I think making Leap counts as a Disengage would cripple too many scheme runners, unfortunately, but removing a few carefully chosen built-in suits would at least make some less easy-mode.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Changing the stat feels bad to me in that it doesn't change the power of the move in all cases, and just allows for more unlucky outcomes.

Reducing leap's distance is still my favourite. Would anyone stop taking a model if leap was dropped down to 4 inches?

[SerZaka]

Everything should happen this week , isn't it? "By the end of the month " they said.

I'm starving for new Strategies and Schemes . The old ones really burnt me out 

On 2/23/2020 at 7:52 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Changing the stat feels bad to me in that it doesn't change the power of the move in all cases, and just allows for more unlucky outcomes.

I'm still for the removing of the suits 

On 2/23/2020 at 7:52 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Reducing leap's distance is still my favourite. Would anyone stop taking a model if leap was dropped down to 4 inches?

Even a 3" place is great, the real power is in the scheme-leap-scheme thing 

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Everything should happen this week , isn't it? "By the end of the month " they said.

Cool! I'm wondering who is going to get "adjusted"...

5 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Even a 3" place is great, the real power is in the scheme-leap-scheme thing 

Something to mind is Leap isn't "completely within", leap is 6''(+ base size) placement; the real distance is 7.2 to 8''. If that were reduced to 4, it'd still be 5.2 to 6''; which is decent.

It's really good, however if something it's not broken, it's better not "fitxing" it. Playing with stat and suit each model has a better or worse one (and if a model is overperforming that is a way to modify it). Or maybe a new inferior version of leap may be given to some models (one with less distance or that doesn't allow to leap when engaged). IDK, there are a lot of ways to twist models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Removing the suit takes you from having the leap basically every turn to having the suit less than 50% of the time.

For Archie for example, sometimes he will be at full power and careen across the board and destroy stuff. Sometimes he will ooze across the board at 10" a turn.

It seems like a weird fix to take away the suit and now he varies between 10" and 18".

It is such a high variance solution that it basically ruins the model (apparently they tried no-suit Archie in the beta and it did not go well).

Adjusting the suit is fine on henchmen where they can get the suit from stones in an emergency.

Removing the suit from non-henchmen is a weird nerf, as some games it has basically no effect and some games it ruins all your leaps. That sort of variance is not great, and can easily push a model from overpowered to unplayable.

I do like the "remove the suit but give him a way to get it built in", like if Crooligans could give him a suit when they discard or if Molly could give him a suit. Or even "if this model activates near Molly, it adds a mask to its duels" or if he gets a suit on discard. Give him a synergy-based suit and the model would work fine in Forgotten and be severely nerfed everywhere else.

EDIT: another way to go would be to nerf how hard Archie hits. Take away his flurry, or make his damage track 2/4/6 (he almost always hits for min damage as he can't focus). For a Forgotten crew, Archie's mobility is the unique thing he does that brings the crew together. For other crews, they take him for the mobile damage. Would much rather see damage nerfed than his mobility and pocket crooligans.

[DuBlanck]

Bring back Hulking Leap - Place within 4".

The Steampowered Scoundrels episode suggested First Mate (citing that bloody great anchor he carries) as a candidate for the same treatment, which I agree with.