Should abominations be insignificant?

[Deathinabox]

  So, I have a few problems with abominations in my Amalgam crew. They don’t seem to be good hires, (They’re cheap, melee-oriented models who are horribly slow and fragile) You lose 2 stones if you hire three to turn into a Desolation Engine as well as giving up some pass tokens. As summons they’re tricky as well. 3 models can summon them (Levi, Ashes and Dust, Deso Engine), all three summon them with a non-baked trigger on a melee attack requiring a kill. Honestly, all this would be fine if it wasn’t for the last fact: they’re significant. This means your opponent is able to kill them to flip turf war markers and score reckoning points. As well as being easy targets for things like dig or detonate charges. They come in slow and unable to interact so the turn they come in they’re unlikely to be contributing anything in way of points. On the flip side, they often provide your opponent with easy ways of getting points, not to mention the pass token that the opponent gains. I’ve actually found myself forgoing or wishing I had foregone the summon, even when all the pieces were effectively given to me. (Score a hit with a tome that I won’t need necrotic decay to ensure the kill). With how difficult this summon is to get off in the first place, I feel like it should be something I should just do if it comes up and often be willing to put resources into making happen. I’m also a resser player and zombify is a pretty common trigger. I never find myself wondering if I should summon the mindless zombie because it’s insignificant and mindless. Aboms feel like they should be the amalgam version of a mindless zombie.

                Basically, my suggestion is this: Make Aboms 3 points, mindless, and insignificant. (Also, Deso Engines should be 9 points. They contribute less than Ashes and Dust, who should be 10) This would make Aboms a slightly more attractive hire and more importantly, would make them useful summons as well. What do you guys think? Am I underrating Aboms? Are they fine as is? Have you had any useful interactions with Abombs (either hired or summoned)?

[Jesy Blue]

Quit stepping on Hamelin's toes.  Having 2 crews in the same faction with the same type of volume of models is not good. 

Pick a different build of Amalgam models when you play Reckoning; this is why you know the strategies and schemes before you pick your crew.

[Alerteddonkey42]

I understand what you're saying. After a couple of times giving up dig graves and stuff like that to the summon I also stopped ever really taking opportunities to do it. Having them be mindless and insignificant isn't a bad idea. I don't think I would ever hire them in their current state. I won't say I've never gotten work out of them but they do come with a risk. They can hand out a decent amount of injured with some luck.

I don't believe that this would be "stepping on Hamelin's toes." His theme is the blight and the rats are way easier to get in greater quantities (even if the suggested changes were made). 

If you never summon/hire abominations in any pool where killing could help the opponent score a scheme or strat then you will almost never use abominations. The problem isn't as simple as "don't take them into reckoning." This also reinforces the original point stating that they are hard to summon and don't feel rewarding to summon. 

That all being said, I believe that Leveticus and crew are in a very good spot right now. Leveticus is one of the best Ourcast masters. A change like this to the abominations would be a bit of a buff which may not be desirable given his current power level. If certain other elements are nerfed, I could see this change as a way to give something back while adjusting other models. 

[TheJoyInGaming]

1 hour ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I don't believe that this would be "stepping on Hamelin's toes." His theme is the blight and the rats are way easier to get in greater quantities (even if the suggested changes were made). 

Thematically they may be worlds apart, but mechanically they share the same zip code. Lets not make them roommates.

 

Both have:

Multiple insignificant totems... (Stolen vs Waifs)

...that extend the life of the Master (Agony vs Pariah’s Soul)

And Chaf... (Rats vs Abominations)

...that can be replaced by a more powerful model (Desolation Engine vs Rat Kings)

Leveticus has even dipped his toes into Nihilism (Nix vs Ashes and Dust)

 

If abominations need a buff then I don’t think it should be by being made insignificant.

Putting aside the above mechanical similarities between the keywords, which I think are enough, Amalgams do more damage than Plagued/Vermin as they aren’t designed to snowball in the same way the Plagued/Vermin are with Blight tokens. Rats are a chief resource in accomplishing this snowball which is one of the reasons they can be generated more easily, and are insignificant. The Amalgams don’t have need of this type of attrition as they instead deal their damage through their resistance triggers and Entropy. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by TheJoyInGaming

[ShinChan]

For me the only problem they have is the Mv 4. Apart from that, they're quite annoying models, and they really require some investment in order to be killed (Health 5 with HtW, and heal 1 with the free action). Also they shut down the healing and can put some damage with unmade and entropy.

[Deathinabox]

7 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Thematically they may be worlds apart, but mechanically they share the same zip code. Lets not make them roommates.

 

Both have:

Multiple insignificant totems... (Stolen vs Waifs)

...that extend the life of the Master (Agony vs Pariah’s Soul)

And Chaf... (Rats vs Abominations)

...that can be replaced by a more powerful model (Desolation Engine vs Rat Kings)

Leveticus has even dipped his toes into Nihilism (Nix vs Ashes and Dust)

This is an argument that always irks me because you can do it for most things. Here’s how Leveticus and Collette are basically the same master

Both have multiple insignificant totems (Waifs and Doves)

Which they can teleport to (Showstopper and Pariah’s Soul)

They both have models that are made from multiple other models (Desolation Engine and Duet)

Which turn into other models when killed (Abominations and Mannequins)

They both summon chaff models on a tome trigger (Abominations and Doves)

They are both capable of impressive spike damage (Death Touch and Sword Trick)

However, if you asked somebody if Levi and Collette were basically the same master, they would say “of course not.” That’s because, despite the similarities of individual mechanics, those two masters play very differently.

Going back to Levi and Hamelin, Amalgam is a tough, kill-based crew that has heavy attrition elements. Plague, on the other hand, is a slow-burn crew (builds up power over time like Dreamer and Yan Lo) that has some good control elements and swarming.

Levi being able to occasionally summon does not make Amalgam a swarm crew. Rats and abominations do not functionally compare, even if aboms were insignificant and mindless.  Rats are summoned by a variety of ways (Triggers on a number of models, Benny, Voracious Rats, Inevitable Fate) and you’ll always see some hitting the board. Aboms are summoned by a single trigger on three models in the crew and requires you to kill the model without using the built-in necrotic decay.

With Levi, I typically have the option of the summon come up maybe once a game. Sometimes, it’s me looking at dropping in the resources and sometimes it’s just something that happens. But if I’m not doing it in Reckoning or Turf War, that’s half the games as well as not wanting to do it so much with a couple other schemes. Basically, it feels bad to have that once-in-a-game opportunity come up and then, more often than not, decide it’s smarter to just ignore the trigger. People really wanted Levi to be able to summon and technically got it, but if it’s something that happening once every two or three games, does it really feel like he can still summon? At least with McMourning’s super situational summon, if it comes up, it’s something you pretty much always want to do.

[Deathinabox]

8 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

That all being said, I believe that Leveticus and crew are in a very good spot right now. Leveticus is one of the best Ourcast masters. A change like this to the abominations would be a bit of a buff which may not be desirable given his current power level. If certain other elements are nerfed, I could see this change as a way to give something back while adjusting other models. 

I definitely agree that Levi’s crew would need some extra work other than this tweak. I alluded to it earlier but I think Levi’s crew is mechanically fine (other than aboms) but needs some points adjustments. Ashes and Dust +1, Alyce +1, Deso Engine -1, Aboms -1. This is what I suggest to help fix the Amalgam crew.

[TheJoyInGaming]

@Deathinabox

The similarities don’t stop there. 

Chip damage (Spam Rat bites vs Entropy/Unmade)

Incidental summons on kills (Voracious Rats vs Desolate Warping)

Totems becoming more threatening as the game progresses ( Stolens’ Bleeding Disease vs Waifs’ Entropic Siphon)

 

Ignoring the mounting evidence of their similarities though...

 

As I said previously in the portion of my last reply, the Amalgam KW and the Plague/Vermin KW play differently despite the mechanical similarities between their models. In fact, I even pointed out the same playstyle differences you did, before you did. I was suggesting to avoid the suggested change as that would make the Abominations more spammable. I never said they were currently spammable.

Maybe you would be less irked if you took the time to read the whole post...

[Alerteddonkey42]

23 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Totems becoming more threatening as the game progresses ( Stolens’ Bleeding Disease vs Waifs’ Entropic Siphon)

How much damage are you getting out of your waifs? My opponents prioritize killing them. Bleeding disease is on a lot more models than just the totems. Late game bleeding disease deals tons of damage, but entropic siphon is still the same as it was turn 1. 

25 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Chip damage (Spam Rat bites vs Entropy/Unmade)

This is more to build up blight with the rats.There are more crews that have chip damage. It is a pretty broad category (black blood, vengeance, etc...). 

28 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Incidental summons on kills (Voracious Rats vs Desolate Warping)

These aren't the only masters to summon on kills. Von Schtook's crew and Sonnia come to mind. 

Deathinabox makes a good point. You can do this comparison with a ton of masters, but that doesn't mean they are the same. Having played both crews, they feel completely different and require very different tactical decisions. This brings up another point. Can no one else have a cheap summon 3ss (the suggested ss cost change for aboms) or less (rats are only 2ss)? The way you summon in the Amalgam and Plague crew as well as the quantity you can summon are also extremely different. Be certain not to ignore the differences between the crews! 

[Deathinabox]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I was suggesting to avoid the suggested change as that would make the Abominations more spammable. I never said they were currently spammable.

As you say, Aboms are not spammable at all. So all way to make them see more table time would technically be making them "more spammable." My suggestions would likely change the rate of summoning from 1 every other game to once a game. It could possibly also change the rate of hiring from 0 to 1 (There are reasons you may hire 1, for lower TN on Weird Devices to being a wound battery for Levi) You may even see 3 every now and then if someone wanted to be cheeky and get some extra focus on a Deso Engine at the cost of pass tokens for their opponent. I highly doubt people will be spending half their stones running a full set of 8. Rats get better the more of them you have, Aboms do not. They have auras that don't stack and have no pack mentality or similar ability. Suffice to say, Aboms are not spammable and nothing about this adjustment will make that so. It may, however, allow one of Levi's icon models to actually be hired occasionally and make his summon not feel like a trap.

[Deathinabox]

Frankly, even making them insignificant and mindless without changing their cost would be an improvement. It wouldn't make them hired that much often but it would at least fix the summon.

[TheJoyInGaming]

44 minutes ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

How much damage are you getting out of your waifs? My opponents prioritize killing them. Bleeding disease is on a lot more models than just the totems. Late game bleeding disease deals tons of damage, but entropic siphon is still the same as it was turn 1. 

This is more to build up blight with the rats.There are more crews that have chip damage. It is a pretty broad category (black blood, vengeance, etc...). 

These aren't the only masters to summon on kills. Von Schtook's crew and Sonnia come to mind. 

Deathinabox makes a good point. You can do this comparison with a ton of masters, but that doesn't mean they are the same. Having played both crews, they feel completely different and require very different tactical decisions. This brings up another point. Can no one else have a cheap summon 3ss (the suggested ss cost change for aboms) or less (rats are only 2ss)? The way you summon in the Amalgam and Plague crew as well as the quantity you can summon are also extremely different. Be certain not to ignore the differences between the crews! 

Mistyped on the name. It is Vomiting Disease on the Stolen. The attack receives plus to damage on models with 3+ Blight so you are rewarded for attacking models you’ve accumulated Blight on. This is similar to the Waifs receiving plus to attack and damage on models below half wounds. So both Masters have insignificant totems designed to be sacrificed to keep them alive, but the totems can circumstantially gain bonuses to attack against models based on the attrition given to them; and in the same faction. 

The problem I have with your argument is that you are trying to argue that Hamelin and Levi aren’t too similar by bringing up singular mechanics from multiple random masters, all while ignoring the fact that my point was that Hamelin and Levi share quite a few mechanical similarities. 

I am fairly certain I am not ignoring the differences between crews when I am the one who first noted the differences here:

13 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Putting aside the above mechanical similarities between the keywords, which I think are enough, Amalgams do more damage than Plagued/Vermin as they aren’t designed to snowball in the same way the Plagued/Vermin are with Blight tokens. Rats are a chief resource in accomplishing this snowball which is one of the reasons they can be generated more easily, and are insignificant. The Amalgams don’t have need of this type of attrition as they instead deal their damage through their resistance triggers and Entropy. 

That reads like a nuanced explanation of how each KW handles differently, despite their mechanical similarities. In fact, this play style difference was my second point as to why the suggested change wasn’t necessary: Amalgams don’t need access to that type of play style.

@Deathinabox

The change seems more appealing without the cost reduction. Though I must ask, is a change really necessary? It doesn’t strike me as a bad thing that you have to consider whether or not to summon them.

[Deathinabox]

42 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

The problem I have with your argument is that you are trying to argue that Hamelin and Levi aren’t too similar by bringing up singular mechanics from multiple random masters, all while ignoring the fact that my point was that Hamelin and Levi share quite a few mechanical similarities. 

As I showed earlier, if you want to spend time on it, you can find quite a few mechanical similarities between basically any masters in the game. It's not about how much is similar mechanically, it's about how the models play and feel on the board.

44 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

So both Masters have insignificant totems designed to be sacrificed to keep them alive, but the totems can circumstantially gain bonuses to attack against models based on the attrition given to them; and in the same faction. 

These guys are actually a great example of how models can be mechanically similar, but function and feel very different. You're correct that they are mechanically similar in all the ways you mentioned. However, Waifs are mobile spawn points. They bring Levi to them wherever they are and with plenty of wounds left to spend on killing stuff. They are comparatively quite fragile so it's better to hide them so even though they have a similar attack to the Stolen, they are rarely ever using it. The Waifs really build off of Levi's highly aggressive playstyle by functioning as mobile reset points by putting him in a good position to pop out and continue the murder spree. Stolen on the other hand, exemplify their crew's theme. They are support pieces that help your models. They have a limited range on their save Hamelin aura so they want to stay close to him and the action. You also gain benefits when they die. Hamelin does not gain any real benefits when he is ressed by a Stolen. Then, late game, the Stolen are able to put out a fair amount of damage with their Vomiting Diseases. This mirrors the crew which gets stronger as the game goes on. So while individual mechanics on the models are the same, they play and feel so different those similar mechanics don't really matter.

 

59 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

The change seems more appealing without the cost reduction.

So it looks like you are concerned about people spamming them at three points. Do you really think that would be a problem?

59 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Though I must ask, is a change really necessary? It doesn’t strike me as a bad thing that you have to consider whether or not to summon them.

The problem is with how many hoops you already have to jump through to get the summon in the first place. You have to kill an enemy model with a from one of the three models that has the trigger. You have to hit the tome trigger (the crews most coveted suit) and forego the spike damage from necrotic decay and the enemy can't have any cheesy ways of avoiding death (Demise heals or replaces) If you do all that you get a 4ss minion who is slow in base contact with the target. This already seems like a lot of work for what I'm getting out of it. Now if you add on that this model is often a free kill in Reckoning or a marker flip in Turf War and will be giving my opponent a pass token regardless, it's silly to the point where it almost might as well not exist on his card in the first place.

To flip this example into something a little closer to home for you. Hamelin has the ability to cancel triggers by removing a blight token from a model in range. Pretty decent ability. Easy cost to pay with a good pay off for doing so. You're not always going to want to go for it, but it's an interesting tactical decision. Now imagine that the rule was that the enemy model had to have at least 4 blight on it, it had to be in base contact with Hamelin, and you had to remove a blight token. It's still a good ability to have but the cost is pretty high for the pay off. You're typically not gonna try to force it, but you'll likely do it if it comes up. Now imagine, that the ability also said, that after you discard the blight, you flip a card and on a crow or mask, the enemy model clears off all their blight. Well now, not only are you jumping through tons of hoops to get this ability off, but then it also has a decent chance of hurting you as well. This ability changed from cool, to fine, to just feeling bad. This is kinda how I feel about abom summons. I want to like the ability because I see how cool it could be, but most of the time it just feels bad to not be able to realistically use.

[Zebo]

I'm really surprised. 

Not played a lot with Amalgam, but in the beta I had the feeling that people thought Abominations were really good and tough for 4ss.

[TheJoyInGaming]

If my coming post comes off rude, I apologize in advance.

From my very first post in this thread, I have held two points:

1. Levi and Hamelin’s KWs share mechanical similarities in their design.
2. Though mechanically similar, these KWs play differently on the table.

I honestly do not understand how this point has been missed thus far. I do not know if you are trolling me, but I do not know how else to word points 1 and 2 in a more clear way for you. I only do so now for the fourth time because it pertains to your question about my possible concern about spamming.

Yes, I am concerned. A limit 8, 3 stone minion, that can be as much of a nuisance as an Abomination, is inviting a way to be abused, especially if they cannot give up VP for being killed. This is not my chief concern though. My chief concern is that the addition of a spammable nuisance model to the Amalgam KW will be enough to make both Hamelin and Levi’s KWs play too similarly on the table. Implementing your idea without the cost reduction I think will allow them to be summons that are worth the hoops you’ve described while preventing my concern.

 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

The problem is with how many hoops you already have to jump through to get the summon in the first place. You have to kill an enemy model with a from one of the three models that has the trigger. You have to hit the tome trigger (the crews most coveted suit) and forego the spike damage from necrotic decay and the enemy can't have any cheesy ways of avoiding death (Demise heals or replaces) If you do all that you get a 4ss minion who is slow in base contact with the target. This already seems like a lot of work for what I'm getting out of it. Now if you add on that this model is often a free kill in Reckoning or a marker flip in Turf War and will be giving my opponent a pass token regardless, it's silly to the point where it almost might as well not exist on his card in the first place.

I guess my difference is I'm happy for a model to have a trigger that you need to think about. There are certainly some models/situations that I absolutely want the ability to get abominations, that ability to prevent healing can ruin some models (McCabe, Hamlin,.teddy killjoy, Big hat, duet, Midnight stalker to name a few). That you don't just bring them out every time you can is fine by me.

I know I've had the discussion with other about other abilities, and my view is not the same as everyone, but I am happy to see situational things on cards. There is enough in the crew that if I want to try and build an abomination summoning list, I can give it a go, and it may work (sometimes anyway) but the crew doesn't need to summon abominations to work.

I would rather they were not just "the Almagam version of a zombie" because if I want to play a list with mindless zombies I can.

I don't deny that they can cost you reckoning points, but 5 wounds and hard to wound mean that most of the time its taking at least 2 actions to kill from a beater model (and they are probably going to have to commit at least 1 decent card to get the kill in 2 hits), and probably costing the enemy some health as well. Is that worth the VP you give up? Sometimes I'd say yes, especially if you think you'd have given up the VP anyway (because that damage that was used to kill the abomination was likely to land on your crew somewhere). Its not a "free kill" that I can see.

You have more experience with them that I do, but I don't think they are so bad that you want to both Boost them as summons and make them cheaper hires.

[katadder]

13 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

I definitely agree that Levi’s crew would need some extra work other than this tweak. I alluded to it earlier but I think Levi’s crew is mechanically fine (other than aboms) but needs some points adjustments. Ashes and Dust +1, Alyce +1, Deso Engine -1, Aboms -1. This is what I suggest to help fix the Amalgam crew.

Ashes and Dust I could agree with but if you increase alyce she will never be taken as she just isnt that good, she barely makes it at 9ss. I guess it depends if you play on the open boards of the US meta or the fuller boards of the UK.
Aboms even at 3ss I wouldnt hire. but they are good incidental summons and I have managed to bring back a deso engine after losing both but near to an A&D summoned abom.

[ShinChan]

I totally agree with @Adran.

For 4ss, they bring a lot to the table. Of course, not to hire 8, but maybe 1 and most of the time is going to be a good summon.

They die, yes. But with 5 health and HtW, they require some effort. Most of minimum damage 2 miniatures won't be able to kill them in a single activation. And the main reason to complain is that there are 2 Strategies where they could give points to the opponent (if they put the effort in killing them), while even in Turf War, it's going to very situational.

This is how a 3pts model looks like:

Less Health, worse Df/Wp and worse stats in their actions.

[Deathinabox]

12 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

If my coming post comes off rude, I apologize in advance.

From my very first post in this thread, I have held two points:

1. Levi and Hamelin’s KWs share mechanical similarities in their design.
2. Though mechanically similar, these KWs play differently on the table.

I honestly do not understand how this point has been missed thus far. I do not know if you are trolling me, but I do not know how else to word points 1 and 2 in a more clear way for you. I only do so now for the fourth time because it pertains to your question about my possible concern about spamming.

Yes, I am concerned. A limit 8, 3 stone minion, that can be as much of a nuisance as an Abomination, is inviting a way to be abused, especially if they cannot give up VP for being killed. This is not my chief concern though. My chief concern is that the addition of a spammable nuisance model to the Amalgam KW will be enough to make both Hamelin and Levi’s KWs play too similarly on the table. Implementing your idea without the cost reduction I think will allow them to be summons that are worth the hoops you’ve described while preventing my concern.

Sorry, if I was coming across as trolly. I'll try to explain what I am saying more concisely. The point that I was trying to make was that your point 1, while technically true, is irrelevant. I believe you could replace Levi and Hamelin in that sentence with any two master's names and it would still be true. Therefore, I don't see why it has any bearing on the discussion. I believe point 2 is the relevant one that they play differently and I don't think anything about my suggested changes would alter that. I obviously don't have any data to back that up as they're not 3pt and insignificant and I don't believe that was ever tried in the beta, but I think it's worth looking at.

[Deathinabox]

5 hours ago, ShinChan said:

This is how a 3pts model looks like:

I think a comparision to a 3pt scheme runner is not the greatest to make. That model is fragile because it should be avoiding contact with the enemy. I'd say a better comparison would be the depleted. They have a similar stat line (-1 def), same health, HtW, HtK, Constriction. and a damaging pulse on death. They have the exact same role (cheap disruption piece) Looking at both of them, I would probably say the abom is better, but not by a lot. Depleted can also be summoned off enemy kills, but are easier to summon. Is 3pts too little for an abom… maybe? But I don't think it's vastly off the mark.