Third Edition is Coming!!

[WWHSD]

12 minutes ago, hYena said:

I seriously hope gun actions/attacks get some love, at this point. Outside of increased mobility/threat ranges, the change to cover (+2 defence as well as the attacker getting a negative flip on damage) and the addition of concealment (negative on attack duel) to both go along with, presumably, still having to flip for a target that is engaged, means that anything with a gun icon will be an auto exclude from lists.

And here I was hoping, with m3e, Parker barrows was finally going to be in a better/good spot, guess I was wrong. Something's got to give, one would think.

It looks like neither Cover or Concealment are limited to attack actions. 

Not how to determine is a model is in Cover or Concealment or if there are any types of actions that ignore them by default.

I did notice from the stat card that there is no such thing as a Ml, Sh, or Ca action. It's all just a straight stat number.

[hYena]

34 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

-snip

I did notice from the stat card that there is no such thing as a Ml, Sh, or Ca action. It's all just a straight stat number.

Except it was stated Parkers crew is going to have the run and gun ability, meaning that they can shoot after a charge (does this mean they can charge 5 " from 15" away and make a shoot action at 10"?). Which means that there is still shoot/gun icon actions/abilities in the game, so I would assume there is still ranges.

 

Edit: looking over the released card images, there is 1" melee on the back of all, the jackalope has a 0" even (base to base only assumed), as well as the back of ice gamin has a gun icon 8" range ability/attack. So, yes, gun icon, melee ranges, and ca are all still going to be there.

[hYena]

14 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Kinda hoping there is a universal gunfighter rule that you can use guns in melee combat but not necessarily shoot out of it.

Still doesn't help crews/models that focus/rely on gun icon attacks/actions. As, presumably, there is still going to be a flip to determine target when shooting into engagement. As well as new cover rules and new concealment rule (lord forbid if models can benefit from both at once).

Enjoying models/crews that use gun icons/attacks feels worse then having your master dmh'ed or change factions (at this point), because, at least, those are still playable. Whereas it is looking like gun icon related attacks/actions are being further neutered, and probably relegated to the shelf to collect dust.

 

I might be in the minority, but I heavily prefer strategic placement of units, over mosh piting my units into the opponents.

[Clement]

18 minutes ago, hYena said:

Still doesn't help crews/models that focus/rely on gun icon attacks/actions. As, presumably, there is still going to be a flip to determine target when shooting into engagement. As well as new cover rules and new concealment rule (lord forbid if models can benefit from both at once).

Enjoying models/crews that use gun icons/attacks feels worse then having your master dmh'ed or change factions (at this point), because, at least, those are still playable. Whereas it is looking like gun icon related attacks/actions are being further neutered, and probably relegated to the shelf to collect dust.

 

I might be in the minority, but I heavily prefer strategic placement of units, over mosh piting my units into the opponents.

Might be worth pointing out that all the melee ranges from the demo cards seem to be either 1 or 0 (0 inch melee range is neat in it's own right).  Pair that with the new disengage being easier to get out of melee with and shooting ends up getting better; if only by virtue of melee having a harder time stopping it.

[WWHSD]

29 minutes ago, hYena said:

Except it was stated Parkers crew is going to have the run and gun ability, meaning that they can shoot after a charge (does this mean they can charge 5 " from 15" away and make a shoot action at 10"?). Which means that there is still shoot/gun icon actions/abilities in the game, so I would assume there is still ranges.

 

Edit: looking over the released card images, there is 1" melee on the back of all, the jackalope has a 0" even (base to base only assumed), as well as the back of ice gamin has a gun icon 8" range ability/attack. So, yes, gun icon, melee ranges, and, presumably, ca are all still going to be there.

I didn't say that  and were going away. The attack stat is just a number now, with no Sh, Ca, or Ml attached. Snow Storm's aura now reduces damage from non- attacks instead of just Sh attacks. 

The Sh, Ml, and Ca actions caused a lot of confusion when they didn't line up with the symbol that they are most often associated with.

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, Clement said:

Might be worth pointing out that all the melee ranges from the demo cards seem to be either 1 or 0 (0 inch melee range is neat in it's own right).  Pair that with the new disengage being easier to get out of melee with and shooting ends up getting better; if only by virtue of melee having a harder time stopping it.

That also would make sense with Walk not allowing you to move out of an enemy's engagement range (even if you didn't start there). That would be really rough if the standard engagement range is 2 inches like seems to be in M2E with 3 inches not being unheard of. 

I do wonder if it will result in more time being spent measuring the path of a Walk action to avoid clipping an engagement range. 

[WWHSD]

I like how the new Charge and Disengage actions use Pushes. The movement bit of a Charge in M2E was essentially a Push. It should simplify things a lot since a lot having those movement types overlay the rules for Pushes. Getting only one attack on aCcharge is nice as well and will probably clear up some timing confusion when things trigger off the first attack of a Charge. 
 

[hYena]

6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I didn't say that  and were going away. The attack stat is just a number now, with no Sh, Ca, or Ml attached. Snow Storm's aura now reduces damage from non- attacks instead of just Sh attacks. 

The Sh, Ml, and Ca actions caused a lot of confusion when they didn't line up with the symbol that they are most often associated with.

I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying. I look at the back of the released card images, and i see melee shoot, aura, pulse and the lack of an icon representing cast, I'm assuming, associated with all attack stats listed.

I read things Melee Range 1 attack 5 resist defence, and anything missing a melee; gun; pulse; or aura icon representing a cast So I don't know what you mean by attack stat just being a number (unless it's a cast, meaning it wouldn't have an associated symbol anyways.)

[Clement]

Example:  If a December Acolyte (Wk 5) wanted to get out of melee with something in order to shoot it.

 

Under current rules, if you connect with the disengaging strike at all, the walk is canceled and the acolyte is stuck.

Under revealed 3rd rules, you have to connect and do severe damage (willing to cheat that?) to actually stop it from moving the 1 inch to get away from you.  Engaging with multiple models helps your chances granted, but needing severe just to stop the movement is a high bar.

7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I do wonder if it will result in more time being spent measuring the path of a Walk action to avoid clipping an engagement range. 

It was something agonized over in 1st edition a lot, since it didn't just lower your walk, it stopped you.  Assuming we've got everything right here, I predict movement keys (the little 1-2-3 ones) becoming popular.

[waffls]

1 minute ago, Clement said:

Engaging with multiple models helps your chances granted, but needing severe just to stop the movement is a high bar.

Why should it help? You can only chose one model for the Disengaging Strike, right?

[hYena]

Just now, waffls said:

Why should it help? You can only chose one model for the Disengaging Strike, right?

Yes, but the model that is trying to prevent the disengage gets a plus flip for every model engaged with the model attempting to disengage.

[Paddywhack]

2 minutes ago, waffls said:

Why should it help? You can only chose one model for the Disengaging Strike, right?

hYena beat me to it...

 

[Clement]

14 hours ago, waffls said:

Why should it help? You can only chose one model for the Disengaging Strike, right?

True, but each additional model gives you on the damage flip.  Getting even a single extra model on the target basically ensures you can cheat the damage of the disengaging strike to keep your target engaged.

Assuming they're not Walk 7+ or something.

Zipp...  looking at you...

Edited August 3, 2018 by Clement
so many ninjas

[waffls]

You guys are totally right. Completely missed the last sentence.

[hYena]

19 minutes ago, Clement said:

Might be worth pointing out that all the melee ranges from the demo cards seem to be either 1 or 0 (0 inch melee range is neat in it's own right).  Pair that with the new disengage being easier to get out of melee with and shooting ends up getting better; if only by virtue of melee having a harder time stopping it.

I didn't think about it in those terms. But still seems bad, with it being easier to get into engagement, along with being able to charge as a one action to renegage, with one attack, and still having a second action to attack again still seems like it's just better to take melee models, instead of ranged ones, since getting away from engagement, while is technically easier, its still not going to be realistic, since the enemy will still be able to reengage, with at least one attack (assuming minor flip for diengaging strike, and another move from model attempting to get out instead of trying to attack)

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, hYena said:

I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying. I look at the back of the released card images, and i see melee shoot, aura, pulse and the lack of an icon representing cast, I'm assuming, associated with all attack stats listed.

I read things Melee Range 1 attack 5 resist defence, and anything missing a melee; gun; pulse; or aura icon representing a cast So I don't know what you mean by attack stat just being a number (unless it's a cast, meaning it wouldn't have an associated symbol anyways.)

In M2E the December Acolye's attack is stat is Sh6 and in M3E it is just 6.

There were a lot of abilities that cared about whether something was Sh, Ml, or Ca in M2E. It also caused confusion with newer players to have an Sh attack that was not a Projectile () attack, or a Ca action that was, or an Ml attack that was not a Close () attack. 

The Cover and Concealment rules on the card don't specifically call out  either. We'll have to wait and see the rules about determining those things to see if the  makes a difference.

[WWHSD]

5 minutes ago, hYena said:

I didn't think about it in those terms. But still seems bad, with it being easier to get into engagement, along with being able to charge as a one action to renegage, with one attack, and still having a second action to attack again still seems like it's just better to take melee models, instead of ranged ones, since getting away from engagement, while is technically easier, its still not going to be realistic, since the enemy will still be able to reengage, with at least one attack (assuming minor flip for diengaging strike, and another move from model attempting to get out instead of trying to attack)

It looks like it is probably going to be easier to screen your ranged attackers with your own melee models though. 

Smaller ranges on attacks also make the straight line movement of a Charge harder to work with. 

[Clement]

3 minutes ago, hYena said:

I didn't think about it in those terms. But still seems bad, with it being easier to get into engagement, along with being able to charge as a one action to renegage, with one attack, and still having a second action to attack again still seems like it's just better to take melee models, instead of ranged ones, since getting away from engagement, while is technically easier, its still not going to be realistic, since the enemy will still be able to reengage, with at least one attack (assuming minor flip for diengaging strike, and another move from model attempting to get out instead of trying to attack)

Eh, I guess we'll have to wait and see.   Going fully ranged in Malifaux has never been a "great" plan for the reasons you outlined unless you had some trick to deal with the inevitable charging enemy crew.

I would say though that a tried and true tactic in m2e is run your scary beater in to engage as many ranged models as possible to stop shooting cold and hide behind "randomize into melee".  Now if I were running a ranged focused crew I have a better shot at getting my own models away from the Nekima/whatever so I can shoot her to pieces.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, hYena said:

Except it was stated Parkers crew is going to have the run and gun ability, meaning that they can shoot after a charge (does this mean they can charge 5 " from 15" away and make a shoot action at 10"?). Which means that there is still shoot/gun icon actions/abilities in the game, so I would assume there is still ranges.

 

Edit: looking over the released card images, there is 1" melee on the back of all, the jackalope has a 0" even (base to base only assumed), as well as the back of ice gamin has a gun icon 8" range ability/attack. So, yes, gun icon, melee ranges, and, presumably, ca are all still going to be there.

The other thing that is important to notice about Charges is that you don't declare a target to do it and you don't need to end in engagement range. Models with Run and Gun can Charge away from their target and shoot. This essentially lets them kite a slower model across the table.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I was essentially wanting every ranged attack be to like perdita’s gun which had a long ranged projectile attack but could also be used as a close attack, but if you were engaged you couldn’t use it outside of a close attack. It’s part of what made projectile attacks generally the weakest attack as they were the only kind of attack that suffered from cover, and the only attack you could prevent from being used by engaging the model who had it, and those attacks weren’t even close to being strong enough to warrant all the draw backs. So no if the rule was implemented the way I would prefer to see you wouldn’t randomize unless you were shooting from range into combat, using it as a close attack would be no different from a melee attack.

[Bad Jim]

3 hours ago, Razhem said:

The pics I've seen are hard to read, how does charge, interact and desingage work please?

Also, fine with the red, not so fine at the lack of simetry with the black, hopefully there is something in play to mitigate a flipped BJ at a cost

Could be great if BJ means you can’t cheat unless you spend a card or soul stone... still nasty but not game ruining.

[hYena]

23 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It looks like it is probably going to be easier to screen your ranged attackers with your own melee models though. 

Smaller ranges on attacks also make the straight line movement of a Charge harder to work with. 

Screening for your ranged models is already doable, and other then protecting ranged models its one of the only ways to shut alpha strikes down atm, for engine based crews.

Heck it's why I like the desperate mercs more then I probably should, because cheap chaff that can shut charges down all together, with proper positioning. And, currently, proper positioning also stops walking/double walking through their engagement to tie up a ranged model

20 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The other thing that is important to notice about Charges is that you don't declare a target to do it and you don't need to end in engagement range. Models with Run and Gun can Charge away from their target and shoot. This essentially lets them kite a slower model across the table.

That doesn't sound right to me, is that real? I don't have a problem with it, myself, it just doesn't seem right. Otherwise why even have walk and charge actions? Why not just call it a "tactical movement/reposition" with an attack at the end of the movement if in range to make an attack.

[hYena]

35 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I was essentially wanting every ranged attack be to like perdita’s gun which had a long ranged projectile attack but could also be used as a close attack, but if you were engaged you couldn’t use it outside of a close attack. It’s part of what made projectile attacks generally the weakest attack as they were the only kind of attack that suffered from cover, and the only attack you could prevent from being used by engaging the model who had it, and those attacks weren’t even close to being strong enough to warrant all the draw backs. So no if the rule was implemented the way I would prefer to see you wouldn’t randomize unless you were shooting from range into combat, using it as a close attack would be no different from a melee attack.

I understood what you meant, but what I was getting at, is that with so many stipulations against projectile attacks, it wouldn't really help to allow them to make a shoot attack while engaged, as, like you even stated, projectile attacks arnt really that great as is (outside of having range). So if you plan on being engaged, it's better to just bring cast or melee attack models, even if you could shoot from engagement, because those attacks/actions are better, in most cases.

Outside of having range, gun icon attacks are, a majority of the time, pillow fisted attacks, with low minimum and nothing to write home about severes. So why would I bring them, even if they could be used in melee, if I can just bring melee, or cast, and do more damage?

The point to bringing range is to try out maneuvering you opponent to make use of the range anyways, knowing you arnt going to deal a lot of damage with the models, but dealing enough to keep opponents honest about how they go about playing against you.

[WWHSD]

1 minute ago, hYena said:

Screening for your ranged models is already doable, and other then protecting ranged models its one of the only ways to shut alpha strikes down atm, for engine based crews.

Heck it's why I like the desperate mercs more then I probably should, because cheap chaff that can shut charges down all together, with proper positioning. And, currently, proper positioning also stops walking/double walking through their engagement to tie up a ranged model

That doesn't sound right to me, is that real? I don't have a problem with it, myself, it just doesn't seem right. Otherwise why even have walk and charge actions? Why not just call it a "tactical movement/reposition" with an attack at the end of the movement if in range to make an attack.

Screening gets easier when the model doing the screening needs to be walked completely around instead of just walking through their engagement range. If I'm reading the walk action correctly you can't walk through an enemy's engagement range. That means that an Ice Gamin with a 1 inch melee creates about a 3 inch circle that enemies need to deal with instead of just avoiding his base when walking. If a model has to walk through an enemy engagement range, they'll need to stop at the edge of it and then take a Disengage action to get out of it. 

Assuming that Wyrd didn't change how a Push works, Charge needs to be in a straight line. A Walk action doesn't. For the most part, the M3E Charges are shorter than they were in M2E..

 

Artiee typed out exactly what's on the Rule Reference card.
 

3 hours ago, Artiee said:

Walk: This model moves up to its Mv in inches. This movement cannot be used to leave an enemy model's engagement range.
 

Charge: Once per Activation. Cannot be declared while engaged.   Push this model up to its Mv in inches and then take a action.
 

Interact: Cannot be declared while enagaged or if this model took the Disengaged Action this activation.  Do one of the following: 1) Place a Scheme Marker in base contact with this model and not within 4" of another friendly Scheme Marker.  2) remove all Scheme Markers in base contact with this model, or 3) resolve a specific rule that refers to an Interact Action.
 

Disengage: Can only be declared while engaged. One enemy model engaging this model may make a  Attack targeting thise model. After resovling the Attack (if Any), this model pushes up to its Mv in inches.  If the attack was successful, it may not declare triggers and instead of its normal effects, reducts this models's push distance by 2/4/6 inches.  This "damage" flip can be Cheated and receives a for every  other enemy model engaging this model.
 

 

 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Looking at the cards there aren’t ca, sh, or ml actions anymore. There are ranged icon attacks, close icon attacks, and attacks with neither.