At what point do you fall off terrain?

[jerhien]

Alright, so here's the question (and I'm sorry if it's been answered already) ;

We're having a hard time understanding the falling rules, when you can use them, and how movement paths are figured out when falling.

If my model is on a Height 3 piece of terrain, when can I choose to fall off of it? Is it when my base touches the edge that I place in base to base contact, does my base have to clear the terrain completely in order to place in base to base with the terrain? Can a base exist partially on terrain and partially suspended over the edge of it?

I know, for instance, that bases can exist partially up or down climable terrain, but that doesn't seem to help any with this.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, jerhien said:

We play it similarly - but we're realizing that we're doing that without actually knowing how it's intended to be played by Wyrd - thus the question.

Get used to it.  Plenty of terrain rules are a bit hazy. That's why they stressed that players should define things before the game. Do what makes sense for you terrain.

There are a few other rules where different players have trouble deciding what was meant or what the ability/action actually says. 

[jerhien]

Oh man I hope that's not the official answer. I hate this sort of discussion and don't want to be locked into it with every player I meet, much less every TO.

[Ludvig]

Just now, jerhien said:

That seems to make sense to me - which means you're paying significantly more then 2 inches to cross the wall. 2 inches up, an inch and a quarter over, then you continue to move is what you're saying?

You are paying 2 inches to climb it, not to cross it. Just subtract 2 inches from wherever you intend to go to see how far you can get.

[jerhien]

That depends on what you define as climbable- I guess? If it's climbable, can stand on the top, climbable and you can't drop till completely off I think it's a bit more movement.

 

This does not feel like an ok thing to be this complex.

[WWHSD]

10 minutes ago, jerhien said:

That seems to make sense to me - which means you're paying significantly more then 2 inches to cross the wall. 2 inches up, an inch and a quarter over, then you continue to move is what you're saying?

I think it works out to be the same either way unless the top is severe terrain or something. A 2 inch high wall would make you pay 4 inches in vertical movement. It doesn't really matter if the inch and a quarter of horizontal movement happens at the top or the bottom of the wall for the sake of  distance traveled. 

It gets into the whole FAQ about being able to stop at any point during a climb. The FAQ says if you don't want models to be able to stop at the top of terrain where the model can't balance that you should have just defined it as "impassable" instead of "impassable, climbable"

[WWHSD]

It's about an inch and a quarter for a 30mm base to cross a quarter inch spot on the board regardless of whether or not it's elevated.  

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, jerhien said:

That depends on what you define as climbable- I guess? If it's climbable, can stand on the top, climbable and you can't drop till completely off I think it's a bit more movement.

 

This does not feel like an ok thing to be this complex.

Just make them severe, hard cover but not impassable and climbable, that is also an ok way to define small stuff. It let's pushes go through so changes the gameplay but is easier.

[jerhien]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Just make them severe, hard cover but not impassable or climbable, that is also an ok way to define small stuff. It let's pushes go through so changes the gameplay but is perfectly fine.

That's a smart fix, and I'll bring it up with the folks who organize events - still stuck on the original questions - or maybe I'm just too dense to see the rules answers in the quoted material.

[santaclaws01]

16 minutes ago, jerhien said:

I understand your argument - that Off in this case is completely off - it's just that Off is nondescript here - we don't know what's meant by it until we get clarification.

Being certain of the interpretation of a thing is fine, but it's not a supported interpretation either way.

It is. You can't get free movement, and you can't go into impassable terrain. That only leaves 1 possible interpretation.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, jerhien said:

That's a smart fix, and I'll bring it up with the folks who organize events - still stuck on the original questions - or maybe I'm just too dense to see the rules answers in the quoted material.

The falling thing is not straight up written but movement on page 46 says: To move a model measure from the point of its base closest to the direction it will
be moving. Determine how far the model will be moving, and then move the model
that distance, ensuring no part of the model moves further than that distance.

You fall during a move and you premeasure moves so can predict if the move will make you fall. The movement rules make it illegal to move further than you are allowed and falling is done as part of a move, not after it ends so must be included in this.

[Ludvig]

@jerhienIf this thread doesn't convince you when you reread it in the morning you can look forward to a lot of rules discussions in your near future.  

[jerhien]

Haha thanks Ludvig, I really do appreciate all the help - I'd still like a clarification on falling in general and what end state a base is allowed to rest on, but there are a lot of good ideas in here about definition and movement.

I suppose I'm trying to carefully define terrain, lol.

 

The saddest thing is I've played hundreds of games of Malifaux, and just sort of accepted how things were without a deeper rules base for a lot of those assumptions... then again, I mostly played Sonnia, who honestly doesn't really care.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The falling thing is not straight up written but movement on page 46 says: To move a model measure from the point of its base closest to the direction it will
be moving. Determine how far the model will be moving, and then move the model
that distance, ensuring no part of the model moves further than that distance.

You fall during a move and you premeasure moves so can predict if the move will make you fall. The movement rules make it illegal to move further than you are allowed and falling is done as part of a move, not after it ends so must be included in this.

You seem to be claiming that  2" push can't push a model off of a 3" tall terrain piece.

That seems to render the FAQ about falling during pushes, and the one about being lured over a ledge, meaningless.

 

 

[WWHSD]

9 minutes ago, solkan said:

You seem to be claiming that  2" push can't push a model off of a 3" tall terrain piece.

That seems to render the FAQ about falling during pushes, and the one about being lured over a ledge, meaningless.

 

 

If I understand the point that Ludwig was trying to make that's not the claim being made. I understood it as:

If the 2 inch push is enough to cause the back end of the base to clear the obstacle, then the 3 inch fall happens since it take 0 inches of movement to cover that distance. However, if the two inch push just makes the first 10mm of the base overhang, you don't get a free 20mm of movement from falling so the model stays at the top (overhanging the edge) instead of falling.

[jerhien]

I'm still curious about how much of a model can overhang elevated terrain, or if you can even do it at all legally.

 

I know you can while climbing but that seems to be a clause related to that specific climbable trait

[WWHSD]

27 minutes ago, jerhien said:

I'm still curious about how much of a model can overhang elevated terrain, or if you can even do it at all legally.

 

I know you can while climbing but that seems to be a clause related to that specific climbable trait

As long as any of the model hasn't cleared the edge, it overhangs. If you couldn't move a model into a position that would overhang terrain then you could never move it into a position that it would fall.  If a model can move from point A to point B it can stop at any point in between (barring an ability like Incorporeal or Flight that lets it ignore terrain). 

Though the rules never actually seem to call it out, declaring a piece of terrain Climbable has to allow horizontal movement through the terrain once a model has climbed the Ht or otherwise there would be no way for a model to climb over even a 1mm thick Climbable, Impassable fence. 

[dancater]

Malifaux is a solid rules set but the elevation and terrain rules are..... 'more guidelines' and pretty sketchy.  Having said that I've never really seen a mini war game with strong and comprehensive terrain rules, I've certainly seen better than Malifaux's current set though, particularly as because terrain is so important to the skirmish scale of the game (not to mention the atmosphere).

Part of the problem is that their is simply so much possible variety in what is tabletop terrain available, how it interacts with other terrain and how the players 'rule' specific terrain pieces.  This makes it very hard for Wyrd.

Generally I'd go with a quick discussion on what is the rules, in a tournament I'd ask the ref for clarification (ideally part of the player pack/table set up to begin with).  Failing that I'd say a model on the edge can voluntarily jump off (as part of their movement) terrain they are on the edge of and fall, they can climb down (or up as per rules) and I think less than 50% overhang is OK but over 50% would result in a fall (you could equally make this 25% or 33% as long as it is understood by both players).

Yes this is a pain to sort out and means possible arguments but to an extent you'll always have to clarify terrain with a tabletop mini war game because it is so difficult to have true scale terrain which represents exactly what you want it to (for example I don't think I've ever seen a house which appeared genuinely 1:1 scale in both size and floor area).  If you sort out the key points before the game starts this should mean you do it quickly and avoid mid-game arguments.

Always, always beware of terrain pieces which have deployable elevated surfaces and are either not climbable or so high as to be effectively impossible to climb.  Malifaux games can quickly be broken by models deployed or able to move and achieve schems/strat (say by maker placement) totally out of reach of any counter.  Not saying don't do it but players need to be aware of these sort of terrain features prior to crew selection otherwise someone will have a negative experience unable to touch scheme markers or sniper models etc placed on very elevated positions they cannot reach with their crew (if they knew and did not take any/enough counter-models then they can't [or at least shouldn't] complain).

I'm hoping Wyrd use the Wyrdscape release as an opportunity to play test and maybe clarify the critical terrain and elevation rules. 

 

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

You seem to be claiming that  2" push can't push a model off of a 3" tall terrain piece.

That seems to render the FAQ about falling during pushes, and the one about being lured over a ledge, meaningless.

 

 

That is not what I am claiming at all, I think you missed the context created by my eight or so previous comments. WWHSD understood me. If you push me half an inch over he edge with a 2" push and then run out of push you aren't allowed to magically move me over the edge so the push becomes 4,5" in the case of a 50mm base. Depending on how you allow models to stand it should either end suspended but on the terrain or stop at the edge of the terrain but never gain the magical 2" of movement along the board. The only way you ever measure a distance is horizontally along the table. You don't pay movement to fall but need to end up in a legal position. Ht values are calculated but never measured during the game after you assign them during the define terrain step if I'm not incorrect (didn't look this up before posting).

[Adran]

8 hours ago, jerhien said:

I'm still curious about how much of a model can overhang elevated terrain, or if you can even do it at all legally.

 

I know you can while climbing but that seems to be a clause related to that specific climbable trait

It sort of depends on how you defined the terrain. If you defined the edges as climbable then accoridng to the FAQ, the whole base can hang in space.  If you haven't, then there is no official answer. Its one of those things that can be covered in the define terrain at the beginning. And the answer doesn't have to be the same each game if you don't want it tobe ( If you have a walkway that is only 45mm wide you might rule it that 50 mm models can walk along it, or you might rule it that they can't. Its up to the two players at the table to decide before they hire their crew)

[Ludvig]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

It sort of depends on how you defined the terrain. If you defined the edges as climbable then accoridng to the FAQ, the whole base can hang in space.  If you haven't, then there is no official answer. Its one of those things that can be covered in the define terrain at the beginning. And the answer doesn't have to be the same each game if you don't want it tobe ( If you have a walkway that is only 45mm wide you might rule it that 50 mm models can walk along it, or you might rule it that they can't. Its up to the two players at the table to decide before they hire their crew)

The faq does seem to lean heavily towards that being a crappy way of defining it even if you are technically free to do so. When someone starts with "Technically yes, but..." it doesn't exactly read as a resounding Yes, that sounds good!  

 

41) Can a model end its move halfway up a Climbable surface? Is it possible for the model to end its move suspended in mid-air if the base does not fit on the terrain, and the terrain has the Climbable trait? Technically, yes. However, players define their own terrain before the game. It is likely best to only define things as “Climbable” which are actually Climbable (i.e. stairs, ladders, steep hills, etc). If you choose to define a sheer, vertical cliff as Climbable you can have the odd situation of a model suspended in mid-air, but this is no different than defining a solid, 6” tall rock as Severe terrain and then having difficulty in balancing your models on it; it likely should have just been defined as impassable, be careful how you define terrain

[Paddywhack]

15 hours ago, Ludvig said:

You don't pay movement to fall but need to end up in a legal position. 

I would argue that if the model can't physically be there on the table, then it's not really a 'legal' position either though. 

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, Paddywhack said:

I would argue that if the model can't physically be there on the table, then it's not really a 'legal' position either though. 

Yes? Your statement seems to be in line with my reasoning that you only fall when your entire base has cleared the terrain and can't choose to fall earlier to gain movement through the fall.

[Paddywhack]

12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Yes? Your statement seems to be in line with my reasoning that you only fall when your entire base has cleared the terrain and can't choose to fall earlier to gain movement through the fall.

Except you can't physically place your model hanging off the edge that much. That would be my only problem. 

[Ludvig]

12 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Except you can't physically place your model hanging off the edge that much. That would be my only problem. 

There are two ways I see that could work. Either the model needs to be fully supported or it can push as far as it is placeable (said that earlier somewhere in all this). Having it move further than allowed isn't an option so unless you can clear it entirely you stop at the last point you are allowed to stop. It is exactly like an incorporeal model moving or pushing through impassable terrain: if you clear the place where it is impossible for you to stand you are allowed to (in this case fall) if you movement isn't enough to fully clear the illegal place you need to stop in the last legal place before ending up in illegal limbo. This way it works exactly like other movement, you need to stop in a legal place allowed by the distance you are moving. If you fall down as soon as some part is out over the ledge we would need rules for defining where the model ends up. There's no precedent for things working like that.

[Clement]

25 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Except you can't physically place your model hanging off the edge that much. That would be my only problem. 

You get something to prop it up or grab a proxy base if it comes to it.  This isn't hard.

 

22 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

There are two ways I see that could work. Either the model needs to be fully supported or it can push as far as it is placeable (said that earlier somewhere in all this). Having it move further than allowed isn't an option so unless you can clear it entirely you stop at the last point you are allowed to stop. It is exactly like an incorporeal model moving or pushing through impassable terrain: if you clear the place where it is impossible for you to stand you are allowed to (in this case fall) if you movement isn't enough to fully clear the illegal place you need to stop in the last legal place before ending up in illegal limbo. This way it works exactly like other movement, you need to stop in a legal place allowed by the distance you are moving. If you fall down as soon as some part is out over the ledge we would need rules for defining where the model ends up.

If how much I can overhang an edge is based off the point the model actually falls down, you're opening the door to an exciting new world of abuse based on pose/conversion/base weighting.  I could absolutely see someone putting "scenic base elements" made of lead on the edge of all their models so they can overhang further then other models.