Attacking a Buried Bete Noir

[Shock & Awe]

Get right to the good stuff... 

The scenario:

Bete Noir starts the game buried. 

A void wretch uses it's Void Maw on the first activation and reduces Bete Noir to 0 wounds. 

NOW - The rule book on buried model states that: 

"When a model is buried it is removed from play... The model is not counted as killed or sacrificed when it is buried. Buried models cannot Activate. In addition, buried models are never considered to be in LoS or within range of effects. These models do not count as "in play" for the purposes of other rules that reference whether or not a model is in play. Buried models still process Conditions and other effects that happen at the end of the Turn (such as the Burning or Poison Conditions). If a model becomes buried during its Activation, end its Activation (it loses all AP and moves to the End Activation Step).  

    - So far nothing about not being able to use ABILITIES

Dead & Buried

It is possible for models to be killed while they are buried, albeit somewhat rarely. If a model that is buried is killed, it will not benefit from any abilities that happen on the model's death (like Finish the Job). In addition, models that are buried at the end of the game count as killed for Encounter victory purposes.

     - Ok, so now we have that IF the model is KILLED (not reduced to zero wounds, but KILLED) it may not benefit from ABILITIES. 

Further, we have the FAQ that states: 

• Pg. 29, “Triggers” Section: Add the following text to the last paragraph: “Models may not declare Triggers during Disengaging Strikes or while Buried unless explicitly noted otherwise.”

     - So now we have established that a model cannot declare a TRIGGER while buried. 

Now the tricky part, the wording on Bete Noir's card: 

"When this model IS REDUCED TO 0 WOUNDS, it may immediately take the (1) One With the Night Action before COUNTING AS KILLED.  If the action succeeds, this model IS NOT KILLED." 

Then we have "One With the Night"

"Bury this model and then remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model." 

Ok, so here's my problem.  In the above scenario the Void Wretch reduced Bete to 0 which then leads to Bete being able to declare her ability.  The rulebook states that IF the model is KILLED, they cannot benefit from abilities that happen on their death, but this ability happens BEFORE she's counted as killed. 

So, can Bete then RE-Bury? as strange as that sounds.  The RAW seems to address models that are killed while buried not having access to abilities and the FAQ seems to address models that are buried not having access to their triggers... but Bete's wording seems to wiggle around them.

So, can you help?  Is Bete dead for good in the above scenario, or is she the lone model in Malifaux that could truly be unkillable (granted the flip goes your way)? 

[solkan]

There's a FAQ entry concerning whether "reduced to 0 wounds" and "killed" happen at different times, which states that they don't:

Quote

93. If a model with the Burning Condition and the Explosive Demise Ability is killed within range of Sonnia’s Violation of Magic and she chooses to summon a Witching Stalker, is the Witchling Stalker summoned before or a er the Explosive Demise Ability occurs?

Violation of Magic occurs “when the target is reduced to 0 Wounds.” When a model is reduced to 0 Wounds it is “immediately killed” (Core Rulebook pg. 51)so Violation of Magic and Explosive Demise have the same timing point. In this instance, see the General Timing rules on pg. 46 of the Core Rulebook:

1. 1)  The Acting model resolves its Abilities

2. 2)  The Defending model resolves its Abilities

3. 3)  Any models controlled by the rst player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s choosing)

4. 4)  Any models controlled by the second player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s

   choosing)

If Sonnia is the Acting model (i.e. if she killed the model with Explosive Demise with one of her Actions), then she would resolve her Abilities rst and summon a Witchling Stalker and it would then take damage
as the Defender’s Abilities are triggered. However, if another model killed the Defender, then Sonnia would resolve her Abilities in either step 3 or 4 (depending on whether her player was rst or second player) which would be a er the Defender resolved its Explosive Demise in step 2. 

In other words, the fact that the ability in question specifies a timing of "reduced to 0 wounds" is essentially just a convoluted way of saying "killed by suffering damage".  

As such, Bette Noir's ability doesn't do anything when buried.

 

[spafe]

I didnt think you could stack stuff... so you cannot be buried again as she is already buried. So she would be dead dead at that point due to not being able to bury. I think.

[Shock & Awe]

4 minutes ago, spafe said:

I didnt think you could stack stuff... so you cannot be buried again as she is already buried. So she would be dead dead at that point due to not being able to bury. I think.

Some conditions stack and others don't.  Buried though, as far as I know, isn't a 'condition' - it should be a state if we're being literal  - and conditions are usually the things that can or cannot stack (usually).  So Buried and buried isn't possible with multiple models, but this is a state in transition - reduced to 0 wounds brings her from the buried state toward killed, and then she uses the ability to go back?  I'm not sure.  

I feel like the answer should be no, she's just dead, but the wording is tricky.

[Ludvig]

It's a game state of the model so stacking isn't an issue. It's not weirder than eat your fill triggering so a pig heals and ends it activation only it isn't the pigs activation so that part just doesn't happen. I don't think the bury rules solve this. Said what I had to say on AWP, I say she dies because the ability + action is referencing death and not being killed so she dies.

[Aegnor]

Can you even take an action while buried?
 I think you can't and so bete noire can't take her One With the Night Action so she is dead.

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Aegnor said:

Can you even take an action while buried?
 I think you can't and so bete noire can't take her One With the Night Action so she is dead.

They can't activate. You are technically allowed to do actions but I'm not sure there are actions that can make others do an action without targeting them and you never have LoS to buried models. The bandersnatch can activate and take actions.

[santaclaws01]

By RAW, yeah, she can do this no problem. However it's clearly not intentional and is likely going to get FAQ'd or Errata'd at the earliest possible time like the thing with Schrodinger's Huggy.

[Shock & Awe]

On 11/25/2017 at 8:21 AM, solkan said:

As such, Bette Noir's ability doesn't do anything when buried.

 

I wrote up a response to this and then my stupid computer deleted it... 

I believe I understand this now, so let me see if I got it straight. 

Bete starts off buried.  Something with the ability to attack buried models attacks her and reduces her to 0 wounds while she's buried. 

At the moment Bete is reduced to zero wounds she is immediately killed.  At the SAME moment her ability kicks in and the question then is, are there any restrictions that would prevent her from using it. 

Because at the moment she was reduced to 0 she was also 'killed' while still buried the rulebook states that, "If a model that is buried is killed, it will not benefit from any abilities that happen on the model's death".  

Now, if she were on the board at the moment of 0 wounds/killed the same question would apply, but then there would be no restrictions because she isn't buried and thus nothing would prevent her from accessing the ability. 

As I originally thought, this would stop players from scoring off of killing Bete multiple times.  Because at the moment of killing she could use the ability and stop herself from being COUNTED as killed.