Is Collodi next on the chopping block?

[edopersichetti]

8 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Colette can prompt any friendly. Abilities have to be compared by what they can do in faction. Colette being able to get 3 extra ml 7 min damage 4 with an execute attacks is much better than anything Collodi can do with My Will.

Apologies also to @Sybarite for the confusion: it is any friendlies, I got confused with her other ability. I'll edit the post. But I disagree with your analysis.

Sure, triple-prompt Howard is not fun for the opponent and it's just a lazy usage of the ability: it's an example of power-play similar to those 6 Stuffed Piglets lists, for which the solution was worse than the original problem. In fact Colette's competitiveness went down quite a bit. She went from triple-prompt Howard to not even being able to double-walk a friendly model. Why not just restrict the Prompt action to no more than one attack per model, or restrict the targets? This kind of solutions looks to me a lot like trying to fix a broken nail by chopping off the whole arm.

But I don't want to digress. Colette needs a 6, so triple-prompting can be quite intense on your hand...not to mention, black joker exists (so the action has a chance to fail) and I'm not sure you want to flip a red joker or a 13 for Prompt unless it's a vital point of the game. On the other hand, Collodi needs no flip, and even gives out . Using My Will 4 times on a Stitched is likely to cause just as much damage as 3 attacks from Howard, if not more, and at range. So if anything, it is better than anything Colette can do with Prompt

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Ah. Well, fair enough, if you don't mind all your Puppets being half-dead.

That also isn't specific to Collodi - you can do it with any Neverborn crew that includes Vasilisa.

Just as half dead as a Bayou Gremlin, let's say, except Marionettes also have hard to kill. Entire Gremlin crews play the game by putting wounds on themselves...and lots of people complain about Reckless being too powerful. But for Strum, is not? Lol. Also puppets for example can heal 1 if they hit anything using the Brutal Effigy buff, heal to full if they hit twice. It's quite a devastating combo, believe me

[edopersichetti]

2 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

But Collette can't do that since the erratta, at least that was my understanding.

If they felt that was too powerful, maybe My Will will be looked at the same way?

Well that's precisely my point (see my last post), so thanks for supporting it  

I feel My Will is definitely more powerful than Prompt because no flip and positive. If one wanted to (and it does happen) using My Will 3-4 times in a turn is perfectly fine and can cause just as much damage as 3 attacks from Howard. Given that the designers felt Prompt was too powerful and it was Cuddled so...promptly ( )  I suspect My Will could (should?) follow suit.

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, Kadeton said:

It's also worth noting that, in Sonnia's case, nothing about her was actually changed. The unintended playstyle that was "corrected" out of the game was Papa-in-a-box. So, rather than being focused on "Take down whatever Master is winning tournaments," the approach is more "Take down whatever unintended mechanic is being most prominently abused." Currently, I see nothing to suggest that anything people do with Collodi is outside his intended playstyle, so he should be pretty safe in that regard. (If anything, I'd expect Illuminated and Trappers to take a hit before Collodi was even considered.)

I'm with @Myyrä on this one (for once :D) 

If the approach was really as you said, then the solution to the Colette "problem" would have been just to severe her interaction with Howard, since that's what 90% of the players complained about and that's what was being abused. That's not what happened - she was hit at the root and the "fix" crippled her mechanics.

Sure, anything Collodi can do fits in his playstyle, but then, so was Colette's case, and I think he is superior to her in many, many ways, and certainly more dominant in tournament even before her Cuddle. So if logic is anything to go by, and designers feel her Prompt was too strong, I don't see how My Will can stay the same, really.

And I repeat - I'm a Collodi player myself, so I certainly have no interest in seeing him cuddled, I just argue it would make total sense and I wouldn't be surprised a single bit if it did happen. Already, Hinamatsu had to be revisited a few times during playtesting, to the point of denying any synergy with her intended crew, precisely because My Will on her would create a monster.

[edopersichetti]

8 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Going to be honest, I do not see him on the chopping block quite yet.  Collodi's issue has been two parts, Decrease in Killy masters and increase in Need for Numbers and AP.  With stuff like frame for murder and more schemes requiring killing being done by non-master models it hurt masters where that was their big stick.  Then you had outnumbering for schemes and strategy grow more important too.  When you have less schemes that score at end of game and more turn by turn, it makes masters that can spam successfully like Collodi rougher.  If masters that specialize at killing see an uptick it might effect where Collodi falls.

All said, I suspect they will have him wait his turn and see how the game shifts with the latest Gaining Ground first.  Collodi is one they have to be careful with because one change could drop him to the bottom of the barrel if they do not do it right.  There are a couple more contenders for the position of the Fix Bat *For one way or another* I would imagine is on the table first.  Now that is not to say that he is not possible on the block, just not in a top position for it.  Also I suspect if he is that it will be very few changes.  I could see My Will being once per Model a turn, if only for Stitched Together.  But one of the things I would suspect to see first is Strum the Threads becoming OTHER puppet models, so it will not work on the person carrying it.  That would force you to have it on a Vasilisa to give Collodi fast.

It seems we actually agree - he will probably be touched in My Will, being limited like every other Obey-like effect in the game (once per model per turn, or one attack per model per turn, or similar) or getting a TN.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Well that's precisely my point (see my last post), so thanks for supporting it  

I feel My Will is definitely more powerful than Prompt because no flip and positive. If one wanted to (and it does happen) using My Will 3-4 times in a turn is perfectly fine and can cause just as much damage as 3 attacks from Howard. Given that the designers felt Prompt was too powerful and it was Cuddled so...promptly ( )  I suspect My Will could (should?) follow suit.

I don't even think My will is the most powerful "obey" action in faction. 

Issue command is better, because of the triggers, but does have to flip a card. If you just want to make an attack, then you probably want the certaintly of My Will., but something like Issue command (or prompt) are much better at scoring VPs, which is normally the important thing. 

Empty Night is often better if you want to attack because of the mobility, but does still require a card

 

And During the Public playtest from what I recall  Hinamatsu was always designed to not work with my will.  I know I got in several discussiona about it

[edopersichetti]

33 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't even think My will is the most powerful "obey" action in faction. 

Issue command is better, because of the triggers, but does have to flip a card. If you just want to make an attack, then you probably want the certaintly of My Will., but something like Issue command (or prompt) are much better at scoring VPs, which is normally the important thing. 

Empty Night is often better if you want to attack because of the mobility, but does still require a card

 

And During the Public playtest from what I recall  Hinamatsu was always designed to not work with my will.  I know I got in several discussiona about it

Not in her first release (I still have the PDF somewhere :D), she was denying actions out of activations just to enemy models. Major oversight? Probably. But still, that's how she was released, then the community pointed out that My Will on a model that can already put out 5 Attacks (thanks to Melee master and Fast) was a terrible idea.

Sure, Issue Command is a great effect, but still requires a flip, it targets minions only and most of all (and that's my main point) it is once per model per turn. It seems like most obey-like effects are restricted somehow, usually once per model per turn, or at least one attack per model per turn: My Will is the only unrestricted one I can think of.

In defense of Issue Command, one could argue that after Colette's Cuddle even this is now better, needing only a 5, and allowing for a push before or after the action, plus 2 additional triggers. Poor Miss du Bois...  

[trikk]

7 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just have to bite. I think Nellie might be overrated. She literally has one good trick, and that's passing activations. Aside from that she does very little that some other Guild master doesn't do better. Passing activations is valuable in some matchups, but against another Guild player for example, it isn't going to do that much for you.

I agree with this 100%. She`s quite durable but Guild has a lot of durable masters. The thing that makes her shine is that she is a enforcer-henchmen support master and in Guild those a significantly better than minions and the activation passing. If you take the passing away I think she would drastically drop in effectiveness.

[Sybarite]

4 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

But Collette can't do that since the erratta, at least that was my understanding.

If they felt that was too powerful, maybe My Will will be looked at the same way?

I think he meant that she could do that before, and therefore warranted a Cuddle.

[Adran]

38 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Not in her first release (I still have the PDF somewhere :D), she was denying actions out of activations just to enemy models. Major oversight? Probably. But still, that's how she was released, then the community pointed out that My Will on a model that can already put out 5 Attacks (thanks to Melee master and Fast) was a terrible idea.

Sure, Issue Command is a great effect, but still requires a flip, it targets minions only and most of all (and that's my main point) it is once per model per turn. It seems like most obey-like effects are restricted somehow, usually once per model per turn, or at least one attack per model per turn: My Will is the only unrestricted one I can think of.

In defense of Issue Command, one could argue that after Colette's Cuddle even this is now better, needing only a 5, and allowing for a push before or after the action, plus 2 additional triggers. Poor Miss du Bois...  

You're right I didn't look back far enough..

Empty night is unrestricted in the number of times it can be used. It does only allow Ml actions. It is Minion or Nightmare, which is probably better than Minion or Puppet. (Isn't Vasila the only non minion puppet? )  

Whilst issue command is restricted, Lucius does also have commanding presence, to get 2 things. 

And Yes, Issue command is probably better than Prompt now. 

[trikk]

I personally think the only change Collodi needs is a Ca6 TN 11-12 on My Will.

[edopersichetti]

12 minutes ago, trikk said:

I personally think the only change Collodi needs is a Ca6 TN 11-12 on My Will.

I mean, that was the essence of my post at the end of the many lines of text hahahah

[Fetid Strumpet]

Collodi's problem is that he was designed as an obey support master whom during the open beta people lost their minds because he didn't have an attack, and so somehow got what many people describe as the best attack in the game as well, while losing nothing else. If Collodi does get redesigned a bit then fixing Pull The Strings would be my suggestion.

[edopersichetti]

23 minutes ago, Adran said:

You're right I didn't look back far enough..

Empty night is unrestricted in the number of times it can be used. It does only allow Ml actions. It is Minion or Nightmare, which is probably better than Minion or Puppet. (Isn't Vasila the only non minion puppet? )  

Whilst issue command is restricted, Lucius does also have commanding presence, to get 2 things. 

And Yes, Issue command is probably better than Prompt now. 

Correct, or at least, she's the only non-minion puppet that is targetable by My Will.

I agree that Empty Night is a very good action,  but still, it has a TN (even if needing just as low as a 4 if I'm not wrong) and only allows Ml so it does have some sort of limitation (and obviously no ). True also for Lucius: he can get around the once per model per turn if he walks instead of Issue Command, but it does require to pass a Horror Duel so you still may have to spend a card.

All in all, I can't find an Obey-like effect that is quite so effective (as in, guaranteed to happen) and flexible as My Will. Which would be just fine except that...

 

2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Collodi's problem is that he was designed as an obey support master whom during the open beta people lost their minds because he didn't have an attack, and so somehow got what many people describe as the best attack in the game as well, while losing nothing else. If Collodi does get redesigned a bit then fixing Pull The Strings would be my suggestion.

This. In fact, thank you so much for giving us some insight into the designing process for Collodi. It also shows the limitations and the dangers with too much open beta testing. Hey, there would be no problem whatsoever with Collodi being the prime puppet-master obey guy (even better than Zoraida), but if he ALSO as an attack, and a particularly good one at that...I mean, didn't they look at other Obey support masters before introducing Pull The String? Zoraida, Colette, Lucius etc...all have mediocre attacks at best, and not even ranged.

Crazy good obey + Crazy good attack, add in very hard to kill and 4 cheap significant totems, with a tendency to out-activate most crew (same can't be said for Lucius or Colette, for instance)...and sure, GG17 really favors his playstyle, but he was very good even before, I've had such good success with him playing GG16 or even rulebook schemes/strats.

I can see My Will be toned down a bit (a TN or a once per turn per model restriction) or Pull The Strings being adjusted (even just a gun icon changes things...) or both. Not saying I'm wishing for it, just that it would be logical given how all the other obey support masters have been designed/redesigned (via erratas).

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

But Collette can't do that since the erratta, at least that was my understanding.

If they felt that was too powerful, maybe My Will will be looked at the same way?

I was addressing the assertion that wyrd thought prompt was too strong when it just targeted minions and peons.

 

2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

In fact Colette's competitiveness went down quite a bit

Her drop in competetiveness was because of gg17, not her being unable to prompt the same model 3 times.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Keep in mind that was my impression of the design process from the Beta.

And the Open Betas have usually resulted in better balanced models than the closed one of book 4 I'd argue. There are some exceptions sure, but more models were correctly balanced out of those processes than not I'd argue. I wouldn't blame the open for the fact Collodi is too good, if you hold that view.

[edopersichetti]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Keep in mind that was my impression of the design process from the Beta.

And the Open Betas have usually resulted in better balanced models than the closed one of book 4 I'd argue. There are some exceptions sure, but more models were correctly balanced out of those processes than not I'd argue. I wouldn't blame the open for the fact Collodi is too good, if you hold that view.

No, I don't blame the open beta, but the fact remains that he's currently too good and enjoying a treatment different from that reserved to other obey-support masters. We'll see what happens I guess

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

I was addressing the assertion that wyrd thought prompt was too strong when it just targeted minions and peons.

 

Her drop in competetiveness was because of gg17, not her being unable to prompt the same model 3 times.

I did very well in GG17 with her until Prompt was cuddled. So that may be your opinion, but it doesn't really match my experience

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I did very well in GG17 with her until Prompt was cuddled. So that may be your opinion, but it doesn't really match my experience

How were you playing with gg17 for a significant enough amount of time before you started playing with the errata to come to that conclusion when the errata was released before gg17? And if being unable to prompt the same model multiple times hurt your ability to play Colette that much, that sounds more like an issue with you being able to adapt to a different playstyle.

[skoatz]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

How were you playing with gg17 for a significant enough amount of time before you started playing with the errata to come to that conclusion when the errata was released before gg17? And if being unable to prompt the same model multiple times hurt your ability to play Colette that much, that sounds more like an issue with you being able to adapt to a different playstyle.

Technically the errata was released Jan 3 while GG17 was released Dec 29.  As far as I can tell, at least.  However, that's still less than a week to apart.  I would agree that less than a week is not enough time to come to that conclusion.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, skoatz said:

Technically the errata was released Jan 3 while GG17 was release Dec 29.  As far as I can tell, at least.  However, that's still less than a week to apart.  I would agree that less than a week is not enough time to come to that conclusion.

The errata was posted on December 22nd, not sure where you're getting Jan 3rd from.

[EnternalVoid]

8 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

It seems we actually agree - he will probably be touched in My Will, being limited like every other Obey-like effect in the game (once per model per turn, or one attack per model per turn, or similar) or getting a TN.

Yes and no.  I don't think he is likely to be on the block cause I suspect there are plenty of other things that deserve that spot first *More that need slight adjustments upward then downward perhaps*.   If they did feel he was a problem I suspect the first thing hit will be his upgrade Strum the Thread, and if that is not enough they will take a look at My Will next.

That said, I don't consider Collodi too powerful currently.  Strong yes, possible rough to play against yes, but not outside the realm of things.  Enough that if he does get visited eventually I would expect any adjustments to be soft overall.

[edopersichetti]

2 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Yes and no.  I don't think he is likely to be on the block cause I suspect there are plenty of other things that deserve that spot first *More that need slight adjustments upward then downward perhaps*.   If they did feel he was a problem I suspect the first thing hit will be his upgrade Strum the Thread, and if that is not enough they will take a look at My Will next.

That said, I don't consider Collodi too powerful currently.  Strong yes, possible rough to play against yes, but not outside the realm of things.  Enough that if he does get visited eventually I would expect any adjustments to be soft overall.

Just for curiosity, what do you think is priority for the next errata? I'm always keen to hear opinions from other players. And I don't just mean cuddles, there's also some masters that actually need some love.

Right now Sandeep, Nellie, Hamelin, Collodi just to name a few are the most dominant masters in the game. Part of the reason surely is GG17, but these are solid masters regardless of the strategies/scheme rotations.

Anyway, thanks for your contribution. My goal was to hear from as many people as possible and see how many share my point of view, since IMHO there are at least a couple of inconsistencies with Collodi - I love him, but I'd prefer him to be balanced. And honestly part of the reason is that seeing a lot of players in my meta playing almost exclusively Collodi or even switching to Neverborn altogether because he is an easy win, is a bit depressing. When a new and relatively inexperienced player beats an experienced player (not talking about myself here, but I've seen this happen a lot) because his master is so good, something is not right...

[EnternalVoid]

Just now, edopersichetti said:

Just for curiosity, what do you think is priority for the next errata? I'm always keen to hear opinions from other players. And I don't just mean cuddles, there's also some masters that actually need some love.

The problem is that as others have mentioned, the game has been given a shake *Maybe not a pick up the box and go crazy shaking it but it did get a bit of a shaking*.  As also mentioned some masters got upgrades that fill a void that was missing before.  Take Zoraida, my first master back in first edition.  She is capable of trickery and what not but her new upgrades open doors for her, namely Powerful Control despite its 2ss cost.  It gives her a lot better AP efficiency even if it might cost you a SS here and there.  This has increased her stock a lot and is going to take time for people to find what they feel is the best time and place.  Did she go from bottom to top, no but she went up. Question starts to become how far up.  With new master upgrades this is not just trying to figure out where new models fall in a faction but trying to re-evaluate what masters can do with different combinations of upgrades.

Because of that, I would not be surprise if they don't put ANY masters on the block this January unless it is just cleaning up wording on cards or the smallest of tweeks.  Masters require a Lot of testing and they just got a new layer added to each of them.  I would not be surprise if they instead look at the other models and start trying to pick off the stragglers.

 

[edopersichetti]

16 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

The problem is that as others have mentioned, the game has been given a shake *Maybe not a pick up the box and go crazy shaking it but it did get a bit of a shaking*.  As also mentioned some masters got upgrades that fill a void that was missing before.  Take Zoraida, my first master back in first edition.  She is capable of trickery and what not but her new upgrades open doors for her, namely Powerful Control despite its 2ss cost.  It gives her a lot better AP efficiency even if it might cost you a SS here and there.  This has increased her stock a lot and is going to take time for people to find what they feel is the best time and place.  Did she go from bottom to top, no but she went up. Question starts to become how far up.  With new master upgrades this is not just trying to figure out where new models fall in a faction but trying to re-evaluate what masters can do with different combinations of upgrades.

Because of that, I would not be surprise if they don't put ANY masters on the block this January unless it is just cleaning up wording on cards or the smallest of tweeks.  Masters require a Lot of testing and they just got a new layer added to each of them.  I would not be surprise if they instead look at the other models and start trying to pick off the stragglers.

 

Powerful Control seems overrated to me - not only it costs 2SS, it also requires suits. Obey with a 7 is already expensive....I don't know I haven't tried it but at a first glance I don't know if this is enough to really make her strong. I love Zoraida and have played her a lot - she was one of my first masters as I play both gremlins and neverborn. It seems the guys in the design room have been tried to make her competitive over and over (introducing Will o Wisp, upgrades etc.) So she went up a bit, but will she ever outshine Lilith, or Collodi? Wouldn't it be amazing if all masters were equally dominant, or at least if there was an alternance? For example, as a Gremlin player, I think I'm pretty sick and tired of seeing Somer at the top of the food chain, he's 100% my least favorite guy, would love for Ophelia, Mah or Brewmaster to take the shining spot...

I do agree that masters are delicate things. But there's lots of time from here til January for playtesting new updates. So far I've tried only the Ophelia one (I made a post about it). It's better than I thought, and she went up a bit, but yeah, she's not quite there yet.

[Kadeton]

16 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I think the austringers could have stayed exactly as they were and Lucius gain a buff anyway without him breaking the game. It would be unenjoyable but far from unbeatable. McCabe could already get massive amounts of work from a single austringer and the gremlin pigapult had more or less the damage output of double austringers obeyed several times at an even greater range.

They possibly could have, but in testing Lucius basically became the "Austringer Master", which wasn't what the designers wanted. "Unenjoyable" isn't exactly their target outcome.

It's worth noting that the Pigapult got its own later "fix" in the Stuffed Piglet change, and now a lot of people are complaining that it's useless.

16 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The Sonnia list that won just happened to include double austringers and they were Cuddled a few months later. If they weren't supposed to attack at 18" then why write them like that? Even before that change there were plenty of situations where they were used to put down markers instead of attacking.

The Sonnia list had Austringers because pretty much every Guild list at the time "just happened" to have double Austringers. They were a huge crutch for Guild in general, and their near-ubiquity was what gained them the designers' attention.

They could attack at 18" because in the previous version of the game they were long-range snipers, and the first Wave of M2E was still "feeling out" how the game was going to shape up, so took most of its cues from the previous edition. Over time, it was decided that it would be better to move them into a scheme-support and medium-range fire-support role, so that's what happened, and they coincided with Lucius' changes because those models heavily influenced each others' design.

13 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Just as half dead as a Bayou Gremlin, let's say, except Marionettes also have hard to kill. Entire Gremlin crews play the game by putting wounds on themselves...and lots of people complain about Reckless being too powerful. But for Strum, is not? Lol. Also puppets for example can heal 1 if they hit anything using the Brutal Effigy buff, heal to full if they hit twice. It's quite a devastating combo, believe me

Gremlins have Slop Haulers - far and away the best mass-healers in the game - for this exact reason. Neverborn don't. That's pretty much the entire difference! As you say, the Brutal Effigy makes up a great deal of that shortfall, though that requires a specific model, a specific Limited upgrade, a prior Activation, and proximity to your Master to function.

13 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

If the approach was really as you said, then the solution to the Colette "problem" would have been just to severe her interaction with Howard, since that's what 90% of the players complained about and that's what was being abused. That's not what happened - she was hit at the root and the "fix" crippled her mechanics.

The design philosophy pushes in the other direction. It's far "cleaner" and more "elegant" to create abilities and actions that work in all cases, rather than having to call out specific models which aren't allowed to synergise. (You can see this in action with the "non-Austringer" clauses on Lucius' abilities - it was preferable to change Austringers and allow them to benefit than to preserve the named lock-out.)

Anyway, if you said "non-Howard Langston" on Colette's abilities, all that would accomplish would be changing the target model used - Coryphee Duet, Joss, etc. The point wasn't to lock off just the Howard interaction, but to stop Colette players doing nothing but Prompt with her AP. 

13 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Sure, anything Collodi can do fits in his playstyle, but then, so was Colette's case, and I think he is superior to her in many, many ways, and certainly more dominant in tournament even before her Cuddle. So if logic is anything to go by, and designers feel her Prompt was too strong, I don't see how My Will can stay the same, really.

If all Collodi players did was My Will over and over, then I'd agree with you. Honestly, what the designers are looking at in my experience is not "power" (which is incredibly hard to measure in any meaningful way), but variety. If the same things come up all the time (like a bunch of Stuffed Piglets in every Gremlin list, or three Prompts in every Colette activation) then that's a good indication that something should be changed in some way, because players are consistently passing up their other options in favour of it.

So when all the Neverborn players start overwhelmingly choosing Collodi instead of the other Masters, that's when I'd expect him to be changed. If the dominant Collodi playstyle at that point was to spam My Will, then I'd expect it to take a hit. At the moment, I don't think either of those things are true, so I'd be surprised if he saw any changes in the near future.

1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

Just for curiosity, what do you think is priority for the next errata? I'm always keen to hear opinions from other players. And I don't just mean cuddles, there's also some masters that actually need some love.

In general, I'd say the design team prefers to boost models up than tear them down. It's only in cases where certain models are appearing all the time that they get cuddled - I don't think there are any real standouts for such treatment at the moment, so I'd expect the next round of major changes to focus on improving some of the little-to-never-used models so that they see table time. Stuff like Desperate Mercenaries, Guild Guard, Freikorps Specialists, etc. Perhaps some of the Master-specific Totems, especially in Neverborn where the Primordial Magic is usually seen as a better option.