Wave 5 Upgrade Hoedown

[PolishSausage]

Problem with gremlin faction has always been internal balance.

They are the"made up" faction of M2e and not many testers had models/interest in playing the crews.

This caused wide disparity between model powers.

 

Unfortunately this trend trickles down again and again.

(book 3 we got nothing useful, book 4 we seen the crazy Zip and insane Iron Skeeters)

So looking at the trend for book 5 its a skip year for gremlins, or play your old lists.

 

From the past trends that we have seen, it is unlikely that our under-performing masters ( brewmaster, ophelia, mah, wong) will receive a buff.

Most likely we will see Cuddlees to Somer and Zip in the future

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

- Brewie: both his upgrades insist on Poison, when this has been clearly demonstrated to be the less viable route for him (expert Brewie players like @Math Mathonwy can confirm). Sure now you can do more Poison damage and it's easier to Obey Poisoned models,  but the problem with Brewie is reliably and consistently spread poison around. I would have liked to see an aura sort of thing where models get poisoned...even his new Explosive Mixture does kind of that, but puts 2 dmg instead...

Though I do somewhat share your pessimism, I won't make a final decision until I've tested some of these. As for Brewie's Poison being a trap - well, there's naturally ways to make it silly powerful if one wanted. Giving Brewie a Ca 7 vs Wp to outright kill anyone who has Poison would be bonkers, to pick a random example. So there's obviously ways to make Poison into a viable strategy. Now, whether these new ones make it viable and whether the application of Poison with Gremlins is too much trouble for the reward remains to be seen.

I do think that the weaker Gremlin Masters got better Upgrades and the two top dogs got silly ones (Zipp's Bayou Gremlin trick is funny as hell but probably one of the worst Upgrades in the whole game unless I'm missing something) so I suppose the inner balance got better. And I kinda wish that other factions would've followed a similar course. But unfortunately it seems that old powerhouses like Ramos got some sweet sweet loving.

[edopersichetti]

4 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Problem with gremlin faction has always been internal balance.

They are the"made up" faction of M2e and not many testers had models/interest in playing the crews.

This caused wide disparity between model powers.

 

Unfortunately this trend trickles down again and again.

(book 3 we got nothing useful, book 4 we seen the crazy Zip and insane Iron Skeeters)

So looking at the trend for book 5 its a skip year for gremlins, or play your old lists.

 

From the past trends that we have seen, it is unlikely that our under-performing masters ( brewmaster, ophelia, mah, wong) will receive a buff.

Most likely we will see Cuddlees to Somer and Zip in the future

That is just SO depressing. I guess an already small and under-represented faction will become even smaller if they keep treating it like this...

[edopersichetti]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Though I do somewhat share your pessimism, I won't make a final decision until I've tested some of these. As for Brewie's Poison being a trap - well, there's naturally ways to make it silly powerful if one wanted. Giving Brewie a Ca 7 vs Wp to outright kill anyone who has Poison would be bonkers, to pick a random example. So there's obviously ways to make Poison into a viable strategy. Now, whether these new ones make it viable and whether the application of Poison with Gremlins is too much trouble for the reward remains to be seen.

I do think that the weaker Gremlin Masters got better Upgrades and the two top dogs got silly ones (Zipp's Bayou Gremlin trick is funny as hell but probably one of the worst Upgrades in the whole game unless I'm missing something) so I suppose the inner balance got better. And I kinda wish that other factions would've followed a similar course. But unfortunately it seems that old powerhouses like Ramos got some sweet sweet loving.

Sure, there's about half of them that could be useful, and need testing, another good half is just plain silly (what's with Somer's summoning a skeeter or that trash thing from Ophelia??).

For Brewie: it looks like one upgrade greatly increases poison damage (at the cost of 2SS!), so then the problem becomes spreading poison reliably (as it was already). The suited Obey brings it in line with Zoraida and Hamelin, but nothing crazy...and the explosive action could be useful, but then, it's got nothing to do with Poison. I guess as you say, they could have made Poison really viable (I keep thinking about a Poison aura/bubble centered on Brewie, so he woudn't have to use AP to give Poison) but they probably didn't.

I haven't seen Ramos yet, but Collodi and Leveticus for example...oh my...so yes you're right in that in other factions already powerful masters got even more options to kick ass...

p.s. I can see where they're going with Mah, even though I doubt these actually make her competitive, but I really don't understand Ophelia's upgrades. Do they make any sense to you?

[edopersichetti]

Ok, I guess both upgrades try to make Ophelia really cycle her upgrades and surround herself by Kin...since the extra 0 most likely is on an upgrade and targets Kin (crazy this costs 2SS!) and the trash affects all Kin. So then her playstyle definitely changes, rather than straight-up killer, to a maneuverable supporting master that moves her Kin around? Hmmm

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, edopersichetti said:

Ok, I guess both upgrades try to make Ophelia really cycle her upgrades and surround herself by Kin...since the extra 0 most likely is on an upgrade and targets Kin (crazy this costs 2SS!) and the trash affects all Kin. So then her playstyle definitely changes, rather than straight-up killer, to a maneuverable supporting master that moves her Kin around? Hmmm

Have you ever played Ophelia? Who cares what the upgrade costs?

Are you just complaining because it will cost something to take it on Sammy?

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

I really don't understand Ophelia's upgrades. Do they make any sense to you?

first turn Ophelia uses reload to attach metal lined coat. This gives her instinctual and if you need to plink effectivly gives her +2 armor for 1AP (and you can attach it again if she does plink it).

useless junk seems pretty useless. Corner case scenario is it looks like she can push towards the trash so you can use it to push Ophelia around and heal her (espically if she uses plink). Personally though imagine you're better off with one of the general upgrades like liquid bravery. Unless Ophelia starts getting useful guns (or reload is errated that you can go above the 3 upgrade restrictions) reloading them is still a trap and while this upgrade is strong, I don't think it is worth having 2 upgrades to pull off the combo.

 

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

Have you ever played Ophelia? Who cares what the upgrade costs?

Are you just complaining because it will cost something to take it on Sammy?

I don't think Sammy can use either of the upgrades.

from metal coat Instinctual isn't useful with her because she only has 1 0 action and she can't use plink for the other ability

and useless junk isn't that useful on her since she can't discard upgrades to create the trash marker

[Myyrä]

I don't see why she would bother attaching the upgrade herself. Or is Cranky just so good that there is no room for useful 2ss activations even after the stuffed piglet Cuddle?

[lame0]

Im pretty sad so many other masters/ factions got super strong buffs and what we got pretty mehh stuff on our good masters.

The best upgrade was zipps upgrade imo. It is decent on zipp but on sammy its awesome allowing her to get in proper range and use jinx to the best of her ability (just popping up and stopping two models from charging or walking or causing some horror duels is pretty cool). Ophelia is cool but i dunno I still don't see any reason to take her over somer (literally none). Zoroida got the the next best one with the mask to charge so her + franc can  potentially obey (charge) -> companion 3x more attacks if shes close enough. Also poisoned fate sounds like it could be okay to slow the voodoo and do 4 damage.

Imo whoever made somer's upgrades should be embarrassed there is literally nothing interesting (less damage overall while still doing half wounds to yourself and making pig prodder skeeter prodder. 

Whats sad is nothing really changes our play and its not like we have interesting decisions to make. Also from what i hear the new models are to be ignored for us so.....we got 3-4 useful upgrades, a couple niche ones and a ton of useless stuff. Tbh I just feel like as a faction we just got way worse because other stuff got a bunch stronger and we are coming off two erratas in a row cuddling our strongest models to the ground (rooster riders and stuffed piglets). 

Collodi, nellie, Leveticus, pandora, perdita and hoffman just to name a few seemed to have gotten some pretty darn nice upgrades

[edopersichetti]

5 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Have you ever played Ophelia? Who cares what the upgrade costs?

Are you just complaining because it will cost something to take it on Sammy?

Yes I played Ophelia a lot - in fact, she was my first master! Using her AP to attach upgrades is a terrible waste of resources - perhaps I could see the Young attaching this, but the whole thing is rather inefficient anyway. Don't think either of these upgrades have made her any more competitive that she is now (i.e., close to zero).

[edopersichetti]

4 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I don't see why she would bother attaching the upgrade herself. Or is Cranky just so good that there is no room for useful 2ss activations even after the stuffed piglet Cuddle?

Cranky is good but you're right, I'd often field Youngs with Ophelia. Mind you, they are quite useless once they've done their upgrade thing, a lot more useless than the piglets...

Anyway, the point is that one upgrade is quite useless (the trash) and the other situational at best. I agree with @wizuriel that this would only start to make sense if she was somehow errata'd to be able to carry more than 3 upgrades. Right now, she was a very sub-par master, and she still is.

[edopersichetti]

2 hours ago, lame0 said:

Im pretty sad so many other masters/ factions got super strong buffs and what we got pretty mehh stuff on our good masters.

The best upgrade was zipps upgrade imo. It is decent on zipp but on sammy its awesome allowing her to get in proper range and use jinx to the best of her ability (just popping up and stopping two models from charging or walking or causing some horror duels is pretty cool). Ophelia is cool but i dunno I still don't see any reason to take her over somer (literally none). Zoroida got the the next best one with the mask to charge so her + franc can  potentially obey (charge) -> companion 3x more attacks if shes close enough. Also poisoned fate sounds like it could be okay to slow the voodoo and do 4 damage.

Imo whoever made somer's upgrades should be embarrassed there is literally nothing interesting (less damage overall while still doing half wounds to yourself and making pig prodder skeeter prodder. 

Whats sad is nothing really changes our play and its not like we have interesting decisions to make. Also from what i hear the new models are to be ignored for us so.....we got 3-4 useful upgrades, a couple niche ones and a ton of useless stuff. Tbh I just feel like as a faction we just got way worse because other stuff got a bunch stronger and we are coming off two erratas in a row cuddling our strongest models to the ground (rooster riders and stuffed piglets). 

Collodi, nellie, Leveticus, pandora, perdita and hoffman just to name a few seemed to have gooten some pretty darn nice upgrades

Sadly, that's how I'm starting to see it too. Gremlins are getting less and less love each time.

[Azkral]

18 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Wouldn't it be better if designated scheme runners put out the marker instead? It's like using Nekima to do Claim Jump....ehm, you can do it if you want...

@daniello_s

Not Claim Jump, but using Beaters to take heads/evidence near enemies does not look bad. 

[edopersichetti]

2 hours ago, Azkral said:

Not Claim Jump, but using Beaters to take heads/evidence near enemies does not look bad. 

It still feels like using the wrong tool for the job. At least for Swine-cursed. I'd much rather have +1 dmg and regeneration most of the times, I think...

[Math Mathonwy]

11 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Cranky is good but you're right, I'd often field Youngs with Ophelia. Mind you, they are quite useless once they've done their upgrade thing, a lot more useless than the piglets...

I dunno, Focusing with them next to Lenny is absolutely horrid to the opponent in general. I think they're pretty cool.

11 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Anyway, the point is that one upgrade is quite useless (the trash) and the other situational at best. I agree with @wizuriel that this would only start to make sense if she was somehow errata'd to be able to carry more than 3 upgrades. Right now, she was a very sub-par master, and she still is.

I agree that her Upgrade limit isn't really gelling with this design which is annoying, but I think that Trash looks pretty nice. It doesn't cost AP as such (well, other than Ophelia shooting her gun) and gives out a Push and a potential Heal and Scheme Marker and those don't cost AP, either. Plus it's unlimited range on both parts of it.

[Math Mathonwy]

53 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

It still feels like using the wrong tool for the job. At least for Swine-cursed. I'd much rather have +1 dmg and regeneration most of the times, I think...

It looks like it's meant for Sammy to carry. I could see a use for it in Headhunter but it's a bit weird otherwise, agreed. Maybe GG18 has some tricks for it to be useful.

[Ikiwith]

I think that useless junk it's a useful upgrade. I'm not worried about the cost, youngs can attach you. With the young lacroix you have nos a 18" scheme runner for only 2ss each. You can use useless junk with merris to put 3 schemes marker per activation which is useful un schemes like "set up". Other way that is useful is with Francois (we need more kin beater), sometimes people engange him with their useless models and you have to kill them, wasting your francois APs, with useless junk you can avoid this situations.

[Math Mathonwy]

I missed Zipp giving a (0) to all Bayou Gremlins to spread Mood Swings. That could be pretty potent, yes. Of course the range is a bit short on it so we shall see how it really shakes out, but the potential with Bayou Two-Card is pretty interesting, I think.

[the tick]

Welp! After (literally) months of just downright dour conversation on the Gremlin forum it sounds like the trend will continue. At least the Ulix upgrade looks useful. I guess I'll wait a few months to play around with the upgrades and cross my fingers for help during the next errata before I consider dumping Gremlins for a different faction.

[lame0]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I missed Zipp giving a (0) to all Bayou Gremlins to spread Mood Swings. That could be pretty potent, yes. Of course the range is a bit short on it so we shall see how it really shakes out, but the potential with Bayou Two-Card is pretty interesting, I think.

i just posted in the other thread but on sammy it seems super deadly.

 

Also now that i read Ophelia's useless junk I really like it + her other upgrade. with just useless junk you can move as many as 6 kin  6 inches turn one by basically taking a young lacroix giving her an upgrade and hitting them off with bayou (relenting).

ex turn 1: 

Ophelia starts with Useless Junk, my threatening gun and Jug Rocket.

Bayou -> hit Ophelia (drop jug)  -> hit ophila (drop threating gun)

Young Lacoix "here you go" (for metal - lined coat)  -> "here you go" (jug rocket) 

Bayou -> hit Ophelia (drop jug)  -> hit ophila (metal - lined coat)

Young Lacoix "here you go" (for metal - lined coat)  -> "here you go" (jug rocket) 

Bayou -> hit Ophelia (drop jug)  -> hit ophila (metal - lined coat)

Young Lacoix "here you go" (metal - lined coat)  -> "here you go" (jug rocket or my threating gun)

That works out to 6 trash markers that don't need to be used turn one and that also passes 6 activations for 15 stones (not bad) if you dont need that many you can get 4 starting with only one upgrade. Those extra junk can be used to move kin out of combat and heal on later turns and later in the game young and bayou could keep it going. Also Ophelia doesn't take any damage which is great.

Throw that in with jug rocket/ my threating gun and her built in Ooo A Girl Leaves her potentially moving her kin/ other gremlins late in the turn with her having 3 psudo armor (1 preventing two damage).  

Even with all this movement it still to bad she cant give her kin a way to get the rams they need so that I think i need to figure out -_-.

Currently im thinking of something along these lines.

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Ophelia + 7 Pool
 - Useless Junk (1)
Young LaCroix (2)
Young LaCroix (2)
Young LaCroix (2)
Francois LaCroix (7)
 - Stilts (1)
Raphael LaCroix (7)
 - Dirty Cheater (1)
Gremlin Taxidermist (7)
 - Dirty Cheater (1)
Pere Ravage (6)

Flex 13 stones 

Sammy with threatinin' gun / Trixie / 1-2 lightning bug / bayou gremlin / Lenny / gun for a lady.

(You don't really need 6 junk turn 1 2-4 junk is probably enough)

[Dogmantra]

:c the negativity is strong

 

I'm totally cool with Som'er getting fun weird stuff that's not all that useful because he's Som'er. He's already one of the best masters in the game, and what do you give to the gremlin who has everything? (I actually would have really liked an upgrade that made him worse at shooting and better at melee or something just for a change - other than the min damage 1 I have always been an advocate for how great his melee is)

Wong got a nice bonus in the form of being able to have absurdly resilient scheme runners if he brings Sammy.

Mah's seem really neat, really good card cycling, and getting even more pushes is nice. Not sure on the pit trap specifics, but it sounds decent enough.