the sky is not falling Future of Malifaux (Game)

[4thstringer]

That is the thing, people building theme free will always have an advantage of flexibility over people who don't.  But besides maybe arcanist crews(beast, Frozen heart, or the ubiquitous MS&U), when was the last time you saw a crew that all focused around the master's themes?  It just doesn't happen unless you are playing with someone that cares very little about winning their games.

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

That is the thing, people building theme free will always have an advantage of flexibility over people who don't.  But besides maybe arcanist crews(beast, Frozen heart, or the ubiquitous MS&U), when was the last time you saw a crew that all focused around the master's themes?  It just doesn't happen unless you are playing with someone that cares very little about winning their games.

Have you played warmahordes after they put in their theme lists? Some of the bonuses were pretty insane but the really poor theme lists really didn't make up for lacking the bits you kind of need to take on all comers so I'm not sure how much it shook it up. 

There are already themes that are pretty strong and flexible but many seem lacking. I'm not sure which bonus would make the guard theme viable, they lack any Casts whatsoever and have a single model that ignores armor (on a trigger on a  on an easily killed model). They have some scheme capability with hounds and the sergeant but if you faced a themed construct or themed spirit list with a themed guard list you'd be royally screwed unless the thematic upgrade gave you McCabe's saber or something similar.The closest to a themed list we have is the crossroads seven which don't seem to be considered that competitive. I think making themed lists in a good way would be a tricky prospect.

[(Keenan)]

48 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

That is the thing, people building theme free will always have an advantage of flexibility over people who don't.  But besides maybe arcanist crews(beast, Frozen heart, or the ubiquitous MS&U), when was the last time you saw a crew that all focused around the master's themes?  It just doesn't happen unless you are playing with someone that cares very little about winning their games.

Dreamer...

[Clockwork_Fish]

Maybe instead of theme upgrades add in a step after choosing schemes to flip for an 'Event' pool.  These would basically work like Manifest effects for Avatars, where if you met the conditions to trigger the selected event(s) then something would happen.  There would be a pool of generic events you flip for at the start of each game, but will always have the option to select a master-specific event as well, that plays to that master's synergies.

So for example, if a Lilith player grows x number of nephilim or maybe places x number of corpse markers, then you can trigger a 'Feeding Frenzy' that removes slow from all friendly Nephilim in play or gives them a combat bonus.  Or for Jacob Lynch, if x number of enemies get brilliance it triggers 'A Brilliant Haze' that inflicts penalties on enemy models.  Make each event you select usable only once per game and maybe give 1 bonus VP for pulling it off.

[retnab]

That's a really cool idea, I like it!  It reminds me a lot of the Bounties in the campaign, things that should happen on turn 4-5 for the most part.  It might be a bit too snowbally though, by doing your job well you can do your job extra well for the rest of the game.

[Ludvig]

All I see is an endless discussion of which master's events are too easy or OP

I think that adding things to the crew selection step is the easiest way to influence crew selection.

[solkan]

I don't know, theme lists seem to be an exercise in "These are the models I want to use, why aren't they good enough?  (Make what I want to use better, rather than making me choose something else.)"

I mean, why should Guild be able to accomplish everything using Gardsmen, instead of using the various offices and departments to do their different jobs?  

[Clockwork_Fish]

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

All I see is an endless discussion of which master's events are too easy or OP

I think that adding things to the crew selection step is the easiest way to influence crew selection.

True.  I'm just trying to come at the problem from the point of view of someone who's heard time and again how a Lilith growth list is like taking a third scheme you don't get points for.  How do you fix that without overhauling Nephilim?  And I thought maybe giving some narrative-driven bonus for jumping through those hoops, like the Avatar manifests did.

[Ludvig]

There's no way to stop grow requiring ap which will always detract from schrmes.

I mean you could make it into a ca action to just grow stuff but that would kind of kill what makes it unique.

@solkan If all masters are supposed to be viable in a tournament setting (which was a stated goal of m2e) and some masters have strong themes it's not that weird to want theme lists to compete. Tricky to do well but not unreasonable to want in my opinion.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

True.  I'm just trying to come at the problem from the point of view of someone who's heard time and again how a Lilith growth list is like taking a third scheme you don't get points for.  How do you fix that without overhauling Nephilim?  And I thought maybe giving some narrative-driven bonus for jumping through those hoops, like the Avatar manifests did.

Focusing on growing your models is what is the "3rd" scheme. It doesn't score you points, but it does take up ap and other resources. If you just take the Rapid growth upgrade, and don't focus on trying to get as many tots to Mature as you can, then it works fine. We, as players, often try and take things to extremes, so if we decide we want to build a grow list, we then focus on growing as much as possible, and that is what makes them hard, you've given yourself  an extra task to try and achieve. 

But Nephlim work just fine as they are. You can build several different Nephlim lists that work well, without ever growing anything. 

Forcing someone to take an upgrade to play in a "Fluffy" way seems counter to the original intent. 

[Sybaris]

Something along the lines that Clockwork Fish has suggested would be quite interesting to me, in order to encourage (not enforce, nor needlessly strenghten) thematic lists. It's as if they added optional faction specific schemes, one per desired theme. This migh alleviate some issues that some lists face when certain scheme combinations arise.

 Examples have been given but there's really tons of interesting thematic schemes that could be devised, in addition to the current ones. If the schemes are balanced properly, then it will not remove anything from players who build lists without a theme, just allow thematic lists to be fielded more often.

 

 

[Crazy Sage]

There is a problem with themes - themeless masters, that have neither keywords nor big enough pool of models to support their theme.

For example  what will be theme for Seamus? Belles? All two kinds of them? But there is usually 1-2 of them on start, because they are summonable anyway, same problem with Nicodem and McMourning, no keywords, no clear theme, no models to support it. I'm sure, that there are similar masters in other factions.

At the same time there are "super-themes", like M&SU, there are at least four M&SU masters and lot of models with that keyword, so it'll be easier to stick to theme and still have broad range of models to choose from.

[Ludvig]

Nico's theme is any model with the undead characteristic which is pretty larg and flexible but I,agree with you on all themes and masters not being created equal. McMourning does have a strong theme if you read the stories it's just not tied to an in-game characteristic so it would need to mention or boost specific models. There are several models explicitly described as his creations. Also the beast and academic characteristic these days.

[Ludvig]

Seems to me like several of the new upgrades focused on making theme lists viable. Both Sonnia and Lilith get themeword synergy from whqt I'ce seen so far.

[Sannop]

On 8/11/2017 at 0:31 AM, -Loki- said:

To combat model bloat, what I'd like to see is stronger synergy between thematic models and masters, but still have some 'wildcard' models that work across masters within a faction.

There's... not nearly as much synergy with the Mature Nephilim, or any Nephilim, and Lilith. For this reason she's a very popular master without her thematic Nephilim. She doesn't do any more for them than she does for other Neverborn in general. Barbaros is considered more of a model for Titania these days, and Nekima is generaly fielded with any crew. Now that's not bad that there's synergies outside of their thematic crew, but to have so little in your thematic crew creates more of a bloat 

I COMPLETELY agree. I got into the game for the amazing theme, but that has gone for power gaming. Make changes to support and promote thematic play.  As it stands, I am losing interest in the game and can't find players.