Deal with him trigger, still flip for damage?

[Da Git]

So when Titania get the Deal with him trigger it reads:

Quote

When damaging, reduce the damage to 0. Another friendly model within 8" and LoS of the target may push into base contact with the target and then take a (1)  Attack against it.

Does this mean you still flip for damage?  It sounds like it does, then reduce the damage to 0.  However, I don't see the point in this, it burns cards for no reason and wastes time (even if it is just a second or two) and effort. 

Thoughts?

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Artiee said:

Burning cards are part of the game.   Since this is " When damaging" you do the damage flip.   If you flip a BJ, then you did no damage and the trigger doesn't happen. 

Real question is would be if you like your damage flip, can you back out of the trigger.


Unless my search is bad,  Austringers trigger is After Succeeding.  So it happens before the damage flip.

 

 

The trigger still happens even if you flip the black joker, it's not an after damaging trigger. It isn't dependent on damage being done for it to go off.

[Ludvig]

Technically yes, but most people just don't flip for it. I usually ask my opponent to go along with this before the game (austringers have a similar trigger). As long as you are both agreed to play it either way consistently it doesn't really matter.

[Artiee]

Burning cards are part of the game.   Since this is " When damaging" you do the damage flip.   If you flip a BJ, then you did no damage and the trigger doesn't happen. 

Real question is would be if you like your damage flip, can you back out of the trigger.


Unless my search is bad,  Austringers trigger is After Succeeding.  So it happens before the damage flip.

 

 

[Ludvig]

@Artiee the after succeeding timing is clarified in the trigger timings to be done after step 5 and damage is during step 5 so RAWyou go troufh all the damage steps before getting to the point where you know it doesn't do damage. If you manage to kill the model with that damage you actually remove it before you get to resolve the trigger and roll back all the damage (p.23 small book/25 pdf because it isn't page-corrected). If the model had black blood you would also do black blood damage to anyone nearby before the trigger has an effect and takes back the damage. I've just started treating it like it doesn't do a damage flip but to each their own.

[Clement]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Artiee the after succeeding timing is clarified in the trigger timings to be done after step 5 and damage is during step 5 so RAWyou go troufh all the damage steps before getting to the point where you know it doesn't do damage. If you manage to kill the model with that damage you actually remove it before you get to resolve the trigger and roll back all the damage (p.23 small book/25 pdf because it isn't page-corrected). If the model had black blood you would also do black blood damage to anyone nearby before the trigger has an effect and takes back the damage. I've just started treating it like it doesn't do a damage flip but to each their own.

The Titania trigger in question is not an "after damaging" trigger, it's "when damaging" which is a different timing and one that would assuredly happen DURING step 5, while damaging is going on.  So it won't trip weird death scenarios or black blood damage like you describe.

The Austringer timing is...  troubling though.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, Clement said:

The Titania trigger in question is not an "after damaging" trigger, it's "when damaging" which is a different timing and one that would assuredly happen DURING step 5, while damaging is going on.  So it won't trip weird death scenarios or black blood damage like you describe.

The Austringer timing is...  troubling though.

I still don't see the gain of flipping for something that has already been decided to not matter. It only wastes time.

[Clement]

48 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I still don't see the gain of flipping for something that has already been decided to not matter. It only wastes time.

Mostly I was concerned with the "I do lethal damage to your model, that then is reduced to 0 but you're still dead" scenario that he was laying out.   I'd still say you need to flip for "trivial" stuff like this because sometimes jokers happen and I'd consider "when damaging" timing to be after the amount of damage has been flipped so you can ensure that "damaging" would be happening.  "wasting time" isn't really a rules justification.

If "when damaging" takes place *before* the flip though, yeah there's no flip.

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, Clement said:

Mostly I was concerned with the "I do lethal damage to your model, that then is reduced to 0 but you're still dead" scenario that he was laying out.   I'd still say you need to flip for "trivial" stuff like this because sometimes jokers happen and I'd consider "when damaging" timing to be after the amount of damage has been flipped so you can ensure that "damaging" would be happening.  "wasting time" isn't really a rules justification.

If "when damaging" takes place *before* the flip though, yeah there's no flip.

Only "after damaging" specifically hinges on actually causing damage, it is in the rulebook. The when damaging is just a timing point.

[santaclaws01]

I would still say a card needs to be flipped, because that's the only way for her damage to be reduced to 0 is if she flipped for damage in the first place.

[solkan]

As far as I can tell, if the designers didn't want you to flip for damage, it would say something like "Instead of flipping for damage".

Card use (even when the result doesn't matter) matters because of the deck manipulation effects; as well as the process of going through your deck to get a reshuffle. 

[Da Git]

Bonus question!

So if the enemy model has a "after resolving" trigger, you'd get to use Deal with Him and make the attack before the trigger goes off as it all happens during the damaging step, then the action is resolved (and the enemy does his trigger)?  

[Ludvig]

9 hours ago, Da Git said:

Bonus question!

So if the enemy model has a "after resolving" trigger, you'd get to use Deal with Him and make the attack before the trigger goes off as it all happens during the damaging step, then the action is resolved (and the enemy does his trigger)?  

You always resolve damage and everything printed inside the action text before any "after resolving" triggers. I'm having a bad thinking day so I'm not 100% but I thought defender triggers went before attacker triggers so in this case you would resolve the defender trigger before deal with him.

[Da Git]

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

You always resolve damage and everything printed inside the action text before any "after resolving" triggers. I'm having a bad thinking day so I'm not 100% but I thought defender triggers went before attacker triggers so in this case you would resolve the defender trigger before deal with him.

that's true, the defender's triggers activate first, but Deal With him is not "after resolving" but during the damage step... so therefore my thinking would be you'd do the Deal with Him attack during the damage step, then the defender would get to do their "after resolving" trigger.

Case in point:

Titania attacks Vincent with Bloody Command getting the Deal with Him Trigger.  Vincent declares his Where You Call trigger.  During the damage stage, reduce the damage to (0), move another model into base contact with Vincent, do a (1) melee attack (including Vincent's Where You Call trigger if he gets it), then resolve Vincent's Where you call from Bloody Command. 

Is this correct?

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, Da Git said:

that's true, the defender's triggers activate first, but Deal With him is not "after resolving" but during the damage step... so therefore my thinking would be you'd do the Deal with Him attack during the damage step, then the defender would get to do their "after resolving" trigger.

Case in point:

Titania attacks Vincent with Bloody Command getting the Deal with Him Trigger.  Vincent declares his Where You Call trigger.  During the damage stage, reduce the damage to (0), move another model into base contact with Vincent, do a (1) melee attack (including Vincent's Where You Call trigger if he gets it), then resolve Vincent's Where you call from Bloody Command. 

Is this correct?

this looks correct

[Ludvig]

29 minutes ago, Da Git said:

that's true, the defender's triggers activate first, but Deal With him is not "after resolving" but during the damage step... so therefore my thinking would be you'd do the Deal with Him attack during the damage step, then the defender would get to do their "after resolving" trigger.

Case in point:

Titania attacks Vincent with Bloody Command getting the Deal with Him Trigger.  Vincent declares his Where You Call trigger.  During the damage stage, reduce the damage to (0), move another model into base contact with Vincent, do a (1) melee attack (including Vincent's Where You Call trigger if he gets it), then resolve Vincent's Where you call from Bloody Command. 

Is this correct?

Right, sorry. I forgot that it wasn't the same timing as the austringer  Looks good.