Our top outsiders

[Blackraw]

Hello guys. We seem to discuss the good models so much, so I suggest we speak about of outsiders of our factions.

I suggest to share your thoughts on the following:

1) What are the models you almost never see get any play for valid reasons? 

2) What are the worst models due to bad game desing?

3) What are the worst models due to being overpriced?

[Mxbedlam]

Arcanists don't really suffer to many bad models, more they have so many niche models that its hard to fit them all into your games. Models I haven't even bothered to purchase are: 
Soul Stone Miners, Union Miners, Scorpius, Rail Golem. 

Models that will never leave the sprue: poison gamin. 

So as far as Soul Stone miners: they aren't bad perse, they just don't really do something I need them to do. As long as I can practiced production a raptor they aren't needed as scheme runners and I don't like the idea of playing down activations for a turn or two as activations have become so important in the American meta. 

Union Miners are admittedly better now and I might pick them up but I'm not sure where they really fit into the lists I like to play. I do like the trick with PP that they can do. 

Scorpius would be fun if it wasn't Rare 1. Rare 1 on a model that can be focused down easily is just meh. 

Rail Golem I just don't care for. I know it can go off across the board but he just doesn't do anything for me that Howard or the Emissary can't do and he requires a bit more work. 

Poison Gamin. they are just meh. I doubt I'll ever summon them with Sandeep and i don't see a situation where I'd spend the points to hire them unless someone gets a real poison schtick in the faction. 

[Squirrelich]

Of the models I own the only one I can think that I never drop is Mouse.

Rail Golem only sees play as a "lets try something different every once and a while" due to how inconsistent it can be combined with tough competition for the SS and Beater spots.

I tend to shy away from the Gunsmith as well, but I feel like I'm an outsider in that opinion.

I have far from a complete collection (maybe 2/3rd of the Faction owned but not everything has had a chance to hit the field yet), but these feel like my biggest outliers of the models I have given fair chance.

Of those I have not dropped on the table yet  I feel like Poison Gamin are the ones I'm most skeptical about them finding room in any lists, but as stated I have not had a chance to confirm or deny my suspicions on them.

[Mxbedlam]

1 hour ago, 7thSquirrel said:

 

I tend to shy away from the Gunsmith as well, but I feel like I'm an outsider in that opinion.
 

I feel the same way about them. I have had them be really amazing in a kaeris list but the set up needed to get them there could have been achieved easier with a december acolyte and gotten more utility out of 2 discards and 2 slow models

[madaxeman]

Slate Ridge Hamster.... ?

I do like the model, but I always think it should have Frozen Heart, or maybe be some weird sort of MS&U beast too. Then it would be not really be worth taking in a Raspy list and an Ironsides list, whereas at the moment it is not really worth taking in a Marcus list, and definitely not worth taking in any other list at all.  

 

[spooky_squirrel]

Honestly, I think in my meta Essence of Power is the only thing that gets a thumbs down, but even then, someone can find uses for it. Everything else has situations that they work well into.

 

With Soulstone Miners, @mythicFOX brings up some solid uses for them here:

When the conversation steers towards hardcore competition, then the list will get trimmed according to meta and playstyle. This is where conversations like "why would I spend 7 stones on a Gunsmith when a December Acolyte gives me so much more utility as-is" come up. Similar conversations exist on whether or not to bring Angelica, Cassandra, or Carlos for Practiced Production, and the details of that always boil down to two key points: (1) how many stones are available for this package, and (2) what else the caddy will be doing (which is typically answered within the context of the master selected).

With regards to the first question:

On 4/5/2017 at 0:05 PM, Blackraw said:

1) What are the models you almost never see get any play for valid reasons? 

The most common valid reason I can think of for models to be left in the case when constructing a crew for a strat/scheme/opposing faction is that something else in faction fills a similar role more efficiently cost-wise or with less liability in general. This falls along the lines of the conversations that come up about The Captain (fully kitted, 13 stones) and the role you're hiring him for:

Quote

If you want a Relic Hammer, Johan is cheaper and comes with condition removal and a healing effect for (as well as combat synergy with) M&SU. If you want friendly pushes, you bring Angelica.

It's the same thing I brought up moments ago with Gunsmiths versus December Acolytes. They're both shooters, but you potentially get more utility out of the Acolyte (as well as a forward shooting position), provided your opponent is not immune to things like Slow and potentially get more damage and/or more reliable shooting out of the Gunsmiths (Fast and other triggers/conditions). You've got two potentials you're weighing, and the one that relies on more effort is a bigger liability. There are cases where a Gunsmith seems like solid gold, and there are meta regions where a December Acolyte will get focused-fired off the board without ever activating because of how much (justified) hatred people have towards it.

Along the vein of competitive play: if I'm dropping Ramos onto some poor soul's hobby like a Relic Hammer, I don't often bring the Brass Arachnid because I have other things I want to do with my low-end stones and Reactivate doesn't come up often enough for me to worry about it. Not coincidentally, these are the same lists I'm not bringing Howard Langston in (common reactivate target for good reason). It's not because it's not worth the cost, it's because it's not needed for the mode of play I'm using; reactivating doesn't come up unless someone's silly enough to not finish off Joss after getting him to one wound. I also do not field Howard Langston very often in competitive play, because I have a different approach to what I'm trying to do than someone who would drop Hank into the same scenario.

On 4/5/2017 at 0:05 PM, Blackraw said:

2) What are the worst models due to bad game desing?

Interestingly enough, where game design is concerned, the "worst" models are some of our overachievers. Because of Myranda, we won't see any supercharged beasts in faction. Because of the Mechanical Rider, peon/minion constructs get reworked or repriced to limit side effects (like the old Metal Gamin problem). On the other end of the spectrum, I see arguments against certain masters in my regional tournament scene (sorry Kaeris, Mei, and Ironsides) due to their not quite living up to what their label says. Mileage varies, but when compared alongside Colette, Ramos, Marcus, Rasputina and Sandeep, many people feel that those three don't do as much. Kaeris especially gets the short end of the argument because regional Arcanists feel she's trying to do too much with too little. I know that mileage varies, because there are people who use Kaeris effectively, I'm always giving people headaches with Mei Feng (Arcanist), and Arcanist players have managed to get into the top three locally primarily using Ironsides.

There are some models that don't feel like they fit their stone cost as well as they should. Wind Gamin might be a stone too cheap for what they do, and similarly The Captain might be a stone too expensive. That's not necessarily bad design, however, and might more correctly be addressed under the third question. Fortunately the top of the food chain appears to be very interested in keeping the game healthy and keeping people using a wide range of models, so design-related issues get tested for. Ones that slip testing come up in feedback (hi, Colette), and after some investigation get addressed in order to keep the game healthy with minimal impact outside of the affected area(s). I know that there are people who are hoping to see something come down to rein in Sandeep a bit, but they're not necessarily accounting for whether or not "the problem" is rooted in his relative newness on the field (see also: Reva panic after GenCon).

[Blackraw]

Thanks for discussion guys!

Glad to hear that opinions are different.

I will leave mine too as it differs from others.

Poison gamins

I LOVE poison gamins for summon.

They had good statline 5/5/5/5 Df/Wp/Wd/Wk armor +1 and they have poison demise! Stealing it Banasuva does 1+1+1+1 on explosion, with the later 1+1 being from conditions, thus denying FFM and getting over H2K. Four separate sources makes prevention much less efficient and deny armor.

He has 2"  which is good to tie things up. And when it gets to 3"  with upgrade that is even better.

However in many cases I would want specific other gamin, but I still enjoy poison ones. Not sure if good hiring option. Maybe for Marcus?

SS Miner

As was said above, after @MythicFOX comments on SS Miner, I bought them next day and was also happy with the model in game.

The Captain

He is awesome, but expensive. It is alright with Hank, but with the Captain I doubt he would be able to live long enough to justify his price. 

As for game design, I think he should have been a little cheaper and at the same time a little less awesome. That would probably make him see more often play. Or maybe his upgrade could give him armor +1 or enhance SS prevent by +1 for him only. Dunno. I just think that in the current condition, I cannot find a spot for him. He can do lots of things. But he can not do them at the same time, so the benefit is still limited by the number of activations you have with him

But I promise to give him a try so that I check it all by myself

Gunsmiths

I was never frustrated with them when playing with Kaeris (their  refers to all duels, not attack actions only). But will I ever consider them instead of Acolytes for range attack for other crews? - No. I belive they have their niche with Kaeris and they could have their niche somewhere else if not for Acolyte being same price more benefit.

Bears

Well, now I thought that I should give them a try. There is probably a reason they exist for, so maybe I will find it

My never-seen-before list

I never ever heard anything about Willie, he looks ok. But the only reason to take him I see is "Why not?". He is not that well at cuicide shenenigans as Papa Loco or Pere.

Actually same as for Bears, but I gonna try them out.

Also haven't seen Moleman and Electric creation (outside of Ramos - scrap marker usage).

 

[retnab]

16 minutes ago, Blackraw said:

I never ever heard anything about Willie, he looks ok. But the only reason to take him I see is "Why not?". He is not that well at cuicide shenenigans as Papa Loco or Pere.

Willie is the hero we all deserve.  He might not look like much on paper, but in game he's a terror for your opponent.  Hiding behind cover?  I'll just ignore it.  Hiding behind a brick wall?  I'll lob some dynamite over it.  Want to charge him?  Have fun with TN 17 Wp, or several Scheme Markers blowing up in your face.  Think you're safe with Df triggers, Incorporeal, and Hard to Kill?  Lol some dynamite fell out of his barrel, take the damage.  Actually got to and killed him?  Hope you don't mind up to 4 Blasts that do 3 damage that you can't stop.

I have literally never had a game where my opponent hasn't thrown everything they can into killing Willie, just because of the sheer volume of damage he's able to put out just by being on the board.  

[prof_bycid]

25 minutes ago, retnab said:

Willie is the hero we all deserve.

Agreed!  I love that mini.  He makes me smile just having him on the board.  And yes, he's no joke.  My top damage output so far is 22 Wd in a single activation.  Of course, that was with two successful hits, some blasts, and lucky flips.  But they really gun for him now, soaking up AP.

[spooky_squirrel]

So there's this suited Scheme now, called "Frame for Murder"

and there's this Minion named Willie (or Miss Fire, in my model case).

53 minutes ago, retnab said:

Willie is the hero we all deserve. 

Smarter opponents bury or paralyze him, which hampers the shenanigans. Outside of that, if their models are not in Friekorps Armor, many people will risk full credit on FFM just to kill Willie in the middle of your own crew (really, as far from their own crew as possible, since blast placement is up to you and you can leave safe spillways for his dynamite).

 

...heck... now I'm thinking about bringing Miss Fire with Envy in my Mei Feng shenanigan crew as the second shooter.

[H4ml3t]

Just to weigh in, I Love my Soulstone Miners. The amount of work I get out of them rocks.

They scheme well, they're great at hunting enemy scheme runners and they're ok point holders--especially as they can use SS.

[Bengt]

I doubt I'll ever buy Gunsmiths, I just can't see ever picking them over other 7 SS models.

I want to play with Willie, but he never seem to make the cut. 6 SS is competitive in Arcanists.

Then we have the Peon problem...

Mouse is just shit.

Eternal Flame is also shit but at least it's half the price, I mean apart from the heal all its talents are well meaning but useless in practice. Hardly anything is actually immune to burning, everyone just have abilitets that lets them not take damage from burning. And when do you really want to remove the burning prematurely from someone in a Kaeris crew?

I can, if I squint, only see a use for Essence of Power in some niche builds, so I've never seriously considered actually taking it.

With Malifaux Raptors being so filthy other Insignificant Peons really have to be useful since unlike a cheap minion they can't contribute in at least a middling way to completing the actual victory conditions of the game.

[bertmac]

A couple of our 8ss models could do with either some love or a reduction cojo and the slate ridge mauler. Not yet tried the bear but have used cojo and he isn't bad but could maybe do with his (2) being a (1) but only usable on a charge.

I think pre gg 17 and errata union miners were our worst 5ss minions but have a place now.

Willie is great! Very good vs Pandora and sorrows as his dropped explosives ignore incorporeal and they all have low defence.

Wind gamin are too good.

 

[retnab]

6 hours ago, Bengt said:

Eternal Flame is also shit but at least it's half the price, I mean apart from the heal all its talents are well meaning but useless in practice. Hardly anything is actually immune to burning, everyone just have abilitets that lets them not take damage from burning. And when do you really want to remove the burning prematurely from someone in a Kaeris crew?

Eternal Flame has a heal with no TN which is nice, but the most use I've found out of it is to throw a Burning on it, have it start within 6" of G&D Kaeris, then have it double walk 12" for a poor man's PP.

And you're absolutely right about the "immune" to Burning vs "I don't take the damage from" Burning thing, it's pretty frustrating.  As far as I can tell, the only models actually *immune* are Shang, the Emberling, Monks of Low River, Ashes and Dust (and each seperately), and whoever has Warding Runes with the Blood Mage around.  Everything else isn't immune, but just gets around it.

[Squirrelich]

I've used it as a 2 SS support bot to give TN-less heals to something like Howard or Lazurus to my opponent's great frustration, and the next game it might do absolutely nothing besides wandering around as a 2 SS activation. I still take it though as it is a 2 SS activation and I've yet to figure out why people are so enamored with the Malifaux Child under Kaeris (which isn't to say it isn't good with her, I've just not yet figured out why).

[Bengt]

Lenny is also immune.

A thing about the Eternal Flame is that it's a Peon, and it's really bad in Interference to have too many Peons (unless said Peon happen to be super mobile...), and kind of bad in Extraction and Guard the stash, neutral to good in Headhunter and Bounty (but if you don't play in tournaments you hardly see bounty), and then there are of course schemes to consider as well. So you generally don't want too many Peons in your crew and most of the time I find myself rather taking another Raptor over the Eternal Flame.

I've tried Malifaux Child with Kaeris and isn't very impressed, turn 1 and perhaps 2 it can put some burning on your crew for Kaeris to play with but after that I've typically outpaced it with Kaeris so then it can't really do much useful stuff, with its heal requiring a 7 and all.

[retnab]

I actually really like Mal Child with Kaeris.  Turns 1 and 2 it can set up G&D with Flaming Halo, and then in later turns it can combo with Kaeris for double Accelerant for nice area damage / Paralyzed.

[spooky_squirrel]

I get use out of Eternal Flame when I'm relying on Constructs on my front line, models like Joss benefit greatly from having a 2 stone healer nearby to keep him above HTK, especially if he's carrying Bleeding Edge Tech to assist with keeping front line Large Steam Arachnids and Rail Workers on the table.

[dancater]

Malifaux, has I've espoused in many other posts is a game of complex answers to seemingly simple questions.

Many (if not all) other war games have a pretty simple move - kill - win system and objective aspect meaning that models which are not either killy or durable for points compared to other models are pretty much terrible.  Malifaux simply does not work like that because of the objectives importance.

Malifaux also has a variety of diverse masters and crew combination (which certain other war games also feature) which may mean a bad model in one crew gets a significant boost in another, likewise this may be true based on the choice of your opponents crew, so a model becomes much better against certain opponents.  This makes a "this model is terrible" broad statement nigh impossible because the question is qualified by with which master > against which opponent > and in which scheme/strat pool.

So the Soulstone Miner which has been mentioned here is an example, better with Ramos and Mei Feng, brilliant in certain scheme/strat pools and potentially useful against crews which hate a sudden melee threat appearing in there midst.  But as a general auto include with any crew and combination of opponent and objective - under whelming.

Having said that models I think are generally weak and have to do more work to get value are (and note they are not always awful, just maybe more often than they should be):

• Mouse, to expensive, vulnerable, generally does nothing you critically need and what he does do puts a easy to kill model in harms way which is never good.
• Poison Gamin, they are simply 'meh' compared to other Gamin, across the board there are Gamin which are better than Poison and for less points (are summons cost), Ice are as dangerous up close, Metal more durable, Fire have superior ranged and the amazing Wind are fast and exceptional scheme runners.
• The Captain, with his almost mandatory casting expert he is expensive and does many things well but nothing brilliantly while being expensive and vulnerable for his cost.  Other models can bring the key ability a certain game needs usually better (without the utility) and for less cost.  Simply put the Captain is a great piece in a game where you have no idea what is coming and need to prepare for many possibilities, Malifaux is rarely that as you purchase your crew with at least on outline of the opponent and the scheme/strat pool.
• Gunsmiths and the Rail Golem both, are a little tricky to get full value from and need other models to help them maximize where as other available models for the faction can do much the same tasks more independently.

Overall though Arcanists are a great faction with many models which can see action legitimately in certain lists and games.  With some nice recent balancing the list of struggling to make fit or better alternative for exactly the same task is also smaller now.  Yes we have many "niche to this circumstance" models but then the system and range of Malifaux models and rules mean this is inevitable and ultimately desirable, otherwise we'd have either terrible power creep (as do everything models slowly trump each other) or boredom (as each model is effectively the original 'do this task piece' with a different 'skin' appearance.

 

[Jordon]

My top 5

1) Mouse - Basically nothing works on this model. His heal is impossible to get off and is mediocre even if you do. His rope toss is nice, but once you rope in a model he can no longer do anything since he has no melee attack and rope toss is a . Arrest him rarely works the way you want it too. He's the most expensive totem yet is a insignificant peon and doesn't play into Toni's theme at all. Other than the fact that he has a decent number of wounds, he's all but useless. I reeealy want to love him and god knows I've tried to make him work, but honestly he's just the worst.

2) Electrical Creation - I just don't ever see the point in hiring this model when it's guaranteed going to die in a couple activations. The explosion is meh when you consider an ice gamin can do the same thing but is WAY more useful for the points. I understand he's mainly there as a summon option for Ramos, but honestly he's rarely ever worth spending that tome/upgrade slot on. 

3) Ice Golem - The emissary basically sealed this guys fate. Df2 is just abysmal, even with armour+2. He's way too slow and just ends up dying way quicker than a 10ss model should. Joss does it so much better at the same cost, as does the emissary if your looking to stay in theme. 

4) Captain - I've run him a bunch now and he's just really one dimensional. He's got a whole bunch of abilities that never get used. He's mainly there to airburst something 3 times. Also, you really want to be running him with his upgrade, but damn that makes him a really expensive model. I've mainly learned to just hire Johan now who does more for much less. Cool model though

5) Poison Gamin - They just don't really offer anything exceptional that the cheaper gamin don't already do. Unlike the other gamin, these guys require poison models in order to accomplish anything worth talking about. They just lack the focus that other gamin have and don't really fill any particular role that I can't get elsewhere for cheaper. 

Dis-honerable mention - Essence of Power: The only reason he's not on the list is because he's still better than mouse and sometimes worth taking over the eternal flame

[Fictor]

I'm agree with all except Poison Gaming, I play it with Ramos because Blade and Claw can swap the Gamin for Howard o Joss (Gaming is a beast) and works well in a poison crew oriented with Scorpius and performers or in marcus with Sh6 and posion trigger can do Sikomes and Canine remains can charge for 1Ap.

I think the option to fill that slot is Cojo, it's teh worst beast of the game in mi opinion, never take it with Marcus in a conpetitive game, only for fun and for the miniature that I love.

[Alexander Tsikarev]

Poison gamins are not that bad. They have good stats and Sh6. And they have the Leave them to Die ability that's underestimated. Love copying it with Banasuva to engage more and more models after the attack.

As you only need a 9 instead of 8 to summon Poison gamin, they are easy to summon.

[PanzerHarris]

I'm currently having a blast experimenting and throwing models on the table regardless of Internet opinion. Running double Ice Golem with Ramos has proven to be hilariously effective in Turf War / Extraction, for example. 

The only model I can't justify giving more than the one game he's had is Mouse. Seriously. What on earth is he supposed to be? He doesn't play like the spymaster of his fluff and he sure as heck isn't worth 4SS. 

Heretical though this may seem to some, I played a handful of games with Mei Feng and can't ever see myself adding to the tally. If I want a beater Ironsides or Marcus do it so much better. You want mobility, Kaeris or Colette get the nod. Buffs? Ramos, Ironsides and Sandeep. Denial? Rasputina. All rounder? Sandeep. I just don't see a role for her and I found one for Kaeris. 

[spooky_squirrel]

@PanzerHarris That's the correct approach!

No, really.. it's individuals' hobbies. The only thing to really be gained here is anecdotes and arguments over competitiveness of certain pieces. If you have fun with it and enjoy it, roll with it.

[BFOmega]

33 minutes ago, PanzerHarris said:

Heretical though this may seem to some, I played a handful of games with Mei Feng and can't ever see myself adding to the tally. If I want a beater Ironsides or Marcus do it so much better. You want mobility, Kaeris or Colette get the nod. Buffs? Ramos, Ironsides and Sandeep. Denial? Rasputina. All rounder? Sandeep. I just don't see a role for her and I found one for Kaeris. 

Run her into heavy shooting/casting and come back to me. Vent steam is obscenely good. Her ability to bring Kang can be invaluable as well in some matchups.

She's probably not the best to drop into an unknown matchup, but with the right intuition she definitely has times where she's the best choice.