Having Serious Issues Against Gremlins

[Ludvig]

55 minutes ago, rhysmcdo said:

All of the advice in this thread is terrible. If you want to beat this opponent, watch his YouTube videos, he tells you how to do it.

I don't find this comment very helpful. Since these kinds of threads are not only for the benefit of the OP but suppossed to remain for other players having trouble it would be beneficial if you provided a link or search term to help people find the videos.

[Joel]

The comment may have been a little flippant, but it raises a serious point that many players gloss over.  It isn't the gremlin faction that is a problem, its the gremlins in the hands of this player that are giving the OP problems.  

I remember a scene from the movie Knight's Tale - a movie about jousting

bad guy (talking about the hero): How would you beat him?

other guy: With a stick! While he slept!  But on horseback, with a lance....that man is unbeatable.

 

its the combination of decent models with a highly effective player that can make anything seem unbeatable.  I'm a long term Neverborn player who is currently on a Zipp kick, having taken him to 3 events now.  I'm fairly competent as a player.  As a result I tend to spot weaknesses in anything I use, so let's have a go.

 

rooster riders: are Wp4.  They can charge for 1ap.  Their Df isn't anything special, no defensive abilities and only 6 wounds. 

collodi springs to mind instantly.  He shoots, goes for severe damage and crow trigger, and sends it charging into its own crew where it will also stampede.  1 ap of collodi causes utter chaos.  Oh, he can do this from 28" away too, so basically right at the start of turn 1.  problem goes away pretty fast at that point.

 

 

[spooky_squirrel]

On 10/31/2016 at 11:04 PM, Ludvig said:

I don't find this comment very helpful. Since these kinds of threads are not only for the benefit of the OP but suppossed to remain for other players having trouble it would be beneficial if you provided a link or search term to help people find the videos.

I find myself saying things like this (out loud) quite often, and have on occasion also called people out on it.

People come here (and to AWP, S&S, PullMyFinger, and others) to get information. Some come with specific questions, and when they search for similar questions and find that they've been asked, they are likely to read through the post and try to learn something from it. Some, like myself, come because I know that the meta I play in is different than the meta some of the bigger nearby tournaments, so I want to read up on how things work and what sort of things to look out for.

As an example: my local meta is centered around two shops. One has people just learning the models and rules and playing very casual games. The other has significantly more experienced players figuring out new masters for their favored factions. Between those two stores is one gremlin player with experience and one gremlin player who is just starting up. The two-day tournament a couple weekends ago had a completely different gremlin player make it to the top table for the 5th and final game. There's another two-day tournament coming up, so I, and more than likely a few others from my local meta, are looking for ways to handle some of the newer things hitting the tables (especially the Wave 4 masters).

 

On 11/1/2016 at 3:22 AM, Joel said:

The comment may have been a little flippant, but it raises a serious point that many players gloss over.  It isn't the gremlin faction that is a problem, its the gremlins in the hands of this player that are giving the OP problems. 

its the combination of decent models with a highly effective player that can make anything seem unbeatable.  I'm a long term Neverborn player who is currently on a Zipp kick, having taken him to 3 events now.  I'm fairly competent as a player.  As a result I tend to spot weaknesses in anything I use, so let's have a go.

This is a fair and valid point, but as a counterpoint:

Now that I have Sandeep's box fully assembled, I've been watching videos and reading battle reports of Arcanist players who have been going undefeated through multiple tournaments with Sandeep to learn what they're doing against various strat/scheme pools and opposing crews that is different than what I would do. I've been practicing some things as well and developing and testing some stuff that I want to do that those players did not. I do this in order to have a list and style that is my own, even if it is indirectly coached.

I would expect gremlin players to do the same thing for tournament preparation.

 

For OP, they could ask that Gremlins player what sort of things are crucial to their victory, they can watch some games--but for others who don't have direct access to that Gremlins player, indirect coaching on how that player plays Gremlins might help, might not. Their local meta and tournament meta Gremlins players might do what I'm doing with Arcanists: get ideas/inspiration from good players, and customize it for personal taste and temperament.

 

So, as is being started here:

On 11/1/2016 at 3:22 AM, Joel said:

rooster riders: are Wp4.  They can charge for 1ap.  Their Df isn't anything special, no defensive abilities and only 6 wounds. 

collodi springs to mind instantly.  He shoots, goes for severe damage and crow trigger, and sends it charging into its own crew where it will also stampede.  1 ap of collodi causes utter chaos.  Oh, he can do this from 28" away too, so basically right at the start of turn 1.  problem goes away pretty fast at that point.

Let's be helpful and look at the Gremlins' weaknesses and Neverborns' strengths. Then turn the table around and look at the Gremlins' strengths and the Neverborns' weaknesses.

On 10/24/2016 at 2:33 PM, JarnabyBones said:

I agree piglets are best dealt with from range, but what decent ranged options do we have in Neverborn?

My best masters right now are Lilith, Titania, and Zoraida. Dreamer is in practice. I have access to Pandora and Lynch but little experience yet.

Working off of this list of masters (and their crews), what are some strengths and weaknesses as they apply to dealing with Gremlins? Who could be added to help?

Pandora has a host of tricks that work off of Wp instead of Df, which could be really helpful for dealing with anything that gets outside of any bubble of Wp protection. Lilith doesn't need to target the Pigapult directly if she wants to deal with it using Tangle Shadows, instead she could use one of the piglets that hasn't been loaded up yet and drop someone in to tie up the Pigapult (or kill it if it's central to the Gremlins' overall plan). Pick something like the Insidious Madness and give them something obnoxious to deal with that isn't as pricey as Barbaros or Tuco.

Dreamer's creeping little friend, Coppelius, could come in handy. Widow Weaver might also find some use too. This is assuming that you are able to work around or ignore things like Liquid Bravery (that +2 Wp is nice, but when Rooster Riders only go up to a 6, it's still not hard to work the Lilitu lure and win the duel to trigger Coppelius' damage, Teddy's attack, etc.).

Some of the ranged options that I haven't seen mentioned here is Angel Eyes, who doesn't randomize. Scion of Black Blood brings a shotgun in addition to condition removal.

Pigapult seems like a major problem for anyone who doesn't have a plan for it. As an Arcanist player, I can get Raptors on it at the end of turn 1, or have something swift/fast/reactivating make it across the board to tie it up early in turn 1*. Neverborn could potentially do something similar with Silurids or Terror Tots leaping/sprinting up the board, but I don't know as much about their options as dedicated Neverborn players might. Outside of that, I already mentioned using Lilith to swap a piglet for some madness to attempt tying it up, but there may be better options.

 

Those better options, where available, can help out many Neverborn players other than OP. That '*' above is because I play Mei Feng and can effectively turn off shooting at her and the people around her when I need to--a sometimes better option available to me than flinging models all the way up the board and hoping that Burt or a Rooster does not just swoop over and clear the jamming model at its convenience.

[Joel]

I think there is an over-fear of the pigapult.  It is only throwing damaging attacks 24" if they sacrificed a pig, and if they do sacrifice a stuffed piglet to get the better damage track they drop to Sh5 and cannot cheat the damage either. 

If they don't sac the pig, then their 12" range at Sh4 isn't much to worry about.

the main use of the  pigapult is the repositioning of multiple ht1 models - which the neverborn player then has to plan for. 

[Passenty]

Pigapult even when sh5 with  3-4 shots per turn can wreck a lot of things and tiying it up with garbage aint so easy when they generally have 3-6 more activations then you. Personally what I have most problem with is Francois with Iron Skeeter in Sommer's crew. I'am outactivated all the time due to Sommer's summoning and large starting crew and Francois has ~30" threat range with ~3-4 attacks when he wins initiative next turn it can wreck halve my crew(I have doppel but they have Trixy) and they still have Roosters which while fragile have huge damage output and are really easy to spam. Any advice on that?

[spooky_squirrel]

It sounded like OP's primary concern was the attacks, not the movement. I agree wholeheartedly that having the ability to reposition Ht1 models after the opponent has done all of their major movements for the turn presents the interesting problem of various nuisances that must be dealt with early in turn 2, which dials up the AP control substantially.

 

That's why it is I made the "sometimes" remark above. If my opponent is planning on shooting, then the AP spent venting steam to severely hamper their shooting is well spent. If they're planning on dropping stuffed pigs, scheme runners, or speedbumps like a Glowy-enhanced Gremlin beater into Mei's Armored Corps, I cannot afford to ignore it and it will be in my best interest to hinder that plan as much as I possibly can.

 

If the concern is activations (being out activated, specifically), summoning Dreamer can ramp up his number of activations relatively quickly. As one of the Neverborn players in my meta is figuring out, however, summoning Dreamer is tricky to unlock. If you can get a good cluster of summoned Black Blood models into the middle of the piglets and Pigapult, each instance of pulse damage is distinct and will not be reduced by Armor--but the goal with ramping up activations is to not leave the Gremlins player in a position of being able to do all of their work without interruption for turns 1 and 2. Just a handful of activations more for their opponent will force the Gremlins player to commit to repositioning while there are opposing models to deal with the newly arrived paralyzed model(s), or to end up shooting instead.

It would not surprise me if there's something Titania could do that would help as well, not with the activations, but with the use of scheme markers and pulses of damage.

 

For dealing with the Roosters, even if they're inside Liquid Bravery's bubble, they're not very strong-willed. Anything that can hurt them for failing Wp duels will passively whittle them down during their own activation, and when you activate something that can lure, obey, or otherwise force them to make more Wp duels, that will bring them down even faster. Having Francois hurt himself with his own attack actions is one approach, obeying a rooster into charging Francois can result in some interesting problems for your opponent as well.

[Joel]

2 hours ago, Passenty said:

Pigapult even when sh5 with  3-4 shots per turn can wreck a lot of things and tiying it up with garbage aint so easy when they generally have 3-6 more activations then you. Personally what I have most problem with is Francois with Iron Skeeter in Sommer's crew. I'am outactivated all the time due to Sommer's summoning and large starting crew and Francois has ~30" threat range with ~3-4 attacks when he wins initiative next turn it can wreck halve my crew(I have doppel but they have Trixy) and they still have Roosters which while fragile have huge damage output and are really easy to spam. Any advice on that?

Yes - incite. Even if he wins initiative, you get to kill Francois before he can do anything in that second turn.

Pandora can streak across the board and kill multiple models a turn - mashing that activation advantage he had. 

also, pigapult at Sh5 that can't cheat damage flips is not that good - most of our stuff has stat advantage on it, and you can easily build for that. Use of stuff with perfect camouflage perhaps. Fighting spam with spam (marionettes, corrupted hounds, etc) too.  You save the cards turn 1 to stop it (you usually don't need them for anything else) and by turn 2-3 it's a moot point as you are well engaged by then.

[chryspainthemum]

When in doubt, jam Pandora!

[JarnabyBones]

Apologies for the long absence from this OP but its been a rough couple months.

In responses to something said: I don't consider ANY advice given bad advice and am grateful for all of it. Also, while there IS one specific player I'd love to beat my issues are against the Gremlin faction as a whole. We have several skilled Gremlin players who show up at our tourney's in my state and I find myself equally frustrated by all of them. 4ap Slop haulers, 2ss stuffed pigs, pigapults, 36" snipers, all of it throws me pretty hard.

Often I find myself having to activate all/most of my crew while my opponent just activates a stuffed pig and ends.

I've tried Dreamer to combat activations, but his main defense against damage (shunting off to a nearby nightmare) turns against him if a Pigapult is around since they can target the bodyguard and blast onto Dreamer.

I'm considering trying Collodi next. Seems like stealing Gremlin AP and using it against themselves could be good. Can make stuffed piglets explode prematurely. Make Roosters charge against their own people.

[jerhien]

I'm going to second (third... fourth?) the suggestion of Pandora into Gremlins. She seems like a real problem for them in general, and she's unlikely to get tar-pitted with the pushes. She helps to even out the activation edge Gremlins will have on you. Take a healthy cache for reduction, take the Widow Weaver and Candy and set up shop in the middle of the board - now I haven't done this, so test it out and see if it works (obviously).

Summoning Dreamer could probably do the job as well.

Last (and I know this is brief) but you have access to mercs as well - Anna Lovelace can shut down a pretty large area against the pigapult's places, and Freikorps models are all blast immune. A librarian could be fun, or a specialist with the flammenwerfer, or even Hannah.

 

Just some thoughts!

[JarnabyBones]

Pandora and Collodi are next up on the chopping block to throw against Gremlins for sure.

Honestly perhaps my issues is target priority. I don't know which models are the most important to kill. Everything seems to have 3-4 AP, everything that doesn't can cheat off the top of the deck, everything seems to have super high damage potential, and all of it is super cheap to boot. Anyone have good advice on how to prioritize a Gremlin list?

[keget]

A couple of things...You have to take out the support parts, old cranky, Lenny, slop haulers.  NB can do that with lures/Lilith upgrades, or speed (tots, Mature).  Keep in mind that certain schemes are very against them are hard and some are easy.  I find catch and release hard (lots of activations and that darn reckless), but hunting party can be easy.  Last week I had the great game of losing all but 2 of my army to Reva, but won 8-2.  The point being that you don't have to kill them, just get your points.  I am trying to figure out Pandora myself ( different thread on that), but I think she could do very nice.  I have had Lilith, nekema, doppelganger, 6 tots, totem of choice army win against a really good zip crew.  High activations, board control, pull power with Lilith, copy lure from his trixebell, and grow.  There is no way around it, gremlins in good hands are the scariest faction for us to play, then Resers (we don't have enough good condition removeal).   Biggest thing is learn what all those crazy guys do, and be ready.

Hope it helps

[Rabbitknight]

I find Titania and Nekima very useful against gremlins. They bring a DF oriented crew against someone who is prepared to fight willpower. Flight lets them out positon running gremlins, and plucking a key model and murdering it away from the pack is a game changer.

Having said that, Armor is the second thing. Illuminated and Knights together are a tough nut to crack.

Finally don't forget that Depleted exist. Tar pit models, that are minions, while unable to interact are crazy hard to shift, and if you do kill them they pop for a final damage burst.

[Four_N_Six]

Slop Haulers are usually top priority.  However, a good gremlin player can easily keep their Ht 1 models protected from LoS, so don't expect it to be easy to prioritize your targets.  Francois is a danger if he's in the pool, and he's also one of the gremlins with a higher than average Wp.  He should be considered an extreme threat especially if he has the Stilts upgrade on.

Support pieces are pretty important to take down.  The only problem is that us greenskins have so many, it's hard to know who to remove first.  It also depends on the player and their preferences.  I don't like Trixiebelle at all, but probably 90% of other gremlin players love her.  I prefer Fingers, and he makes it into most crews that I run if I have any scheme running to do.  He also has the added benefit of being a pain in the ass to kill if I don't want him to die.

[cryion]

Im not sure. There are some things that might be worth discussing - but keep in mind Im pretty much not a very great player. Still:

A ) If somebody announces Neverborn I wouldnt bring a whole ton of rooster riders. Maybe one for scheme running and then it will be far away from the gang anyway.
B ) Zipp kinda seems to be the natural predator of Collodi and Pandora. Granted, it depends on a lot of factors - player skill, terrain. But lets be honest, throwing them around and placing smoke can ruin their day quite efficiently.
C ) If you want to use Collodi's AP and high masks/stones on my Stuffed Piglets, please, be my guest.
D ) Nekima might be annoying, but I kinda feel like Francois would murder her. Might be wrong. We dont have a ton of NB players so Im kinda lacking experience facing them.

[Joel]

3 hours ago, cryion said:

Im not sure. There are some things that might be worth discussing - but keep in mind Im pretty much not a very great player. Still:

A ) If somebody announces Neverborn I wouldnt bring a whole ton of rooster riders. Maybe one for scheme running and then it will be far away from the gang anyway.
B ) Zipp kinda seems to be the natural predator of Collodi and Pandora. Granted, it depends on a lot of factors - player skill, terrain. But lets be honest, throwing them around and placing smoke can ruin their day quite efficiently.
C ) If you want to use Collodi's AP and high masks/stones on my Stuffed Piglets, please, be my guest.
D ) Nekima might be annoying, but I kinda feel like Francois would murder her. Might be wrong. We dont have a ton of NB players so Im kinda lacking experience facing them.

I tend to find that many players aren't that adaptable - and especially gremlins.  That faction has many "obvious" choices that players get familiar with and use relentlessly.  

[Four_N_Six]

I always look at Nekima like Killjoy.  Focus on her before she can activate and she tends to drop well enough.

Zipp is my go-to guy right now for a lot of situations.  He disrupts things very easily, and even knowing his tricks, it's hard to stop him.

Joel is right about obvious choices, but it depends on the player.  I tend to go against the usual choices that most gremlin players use.  I don't like Trixiebelle a lot of the time, I don't use Roosters (never even bought them), and Som'er is fun, but far from one of my favorites to play.  Same with Ophelia.  Haven't used Francois in months.  If you run into a player that likes a lot of those usual models, it doesn't take long to find work arounds to those models.  The player is stuck relying on them so much that once they go down, their strategy tanks and that's about it.  I try not to have any singular model that I rely on, and have a backup plan ready if something dies before I need it to.  Especially as a gremlin.  Our stuff goes down too easily to put too much faith in any one model.

 

[spooky_squirrel]

27 minutes ago, Four_N_Six said:

 If you run into a player that likes a lot of those usual models, it doesn't take long to find work arounds to those models.  The player is stuck relying on them so much that once they go down, their strategy tanks and that's about it.

This is true for any faction. Someone playing [faction] who relies on [model] a lot will end up off-balance when that model gets squished.

At a tournament two months ago, an Arcanist player who is quite competitive end up wrong-footed when his Mechanical Rider died in the middle of Turn 1. A month ago, another Arcanist player who is newer/less competitive ended up wrong-footed when her Myranda died at the top of Turn 1. These are known elements in Arcanist lists (Rider for scheme running and being a nuisance, Myranda for darting forward and shifting into something hard hitting like a Cerberus), and in a competitive environment, someone's going to have a counter to that.

The top-table players in fierce metas will be able to work around such setbacks or not set themselves up for being caught by them. The rest of us? We're using our crutches because they work so long as they aren't hampered. What splits us between the lower and upper half of the field is this:

35 minutes ago, Four_N_Six said:

 I try not to have any singular model that I rely on, and have a backup plan ready if something dies before I need it to. 

and this:

16 hours ago, keget said:

The point being that you don't have to kill them, just get your points.

 

Figure out how you're going to earn your points. Play to that. If your points are centered around a specific model doing something, can you switch to a backup plan in case that model gets a Stuffed Piglet or Fast Francois dropped on it? I've seen Lilith and Dreamer players get advised to play their master like a significant component (Lilith's sword, Dreamer's summoning) is not present so that they can get the hang of everything that it can do. When it comes to certain other models (Widow Weaver, Tannen, Nekima), play the same list with and without them to see what they change about your list and how you can score on your strategy and schemes.

I did that fairly recently with Mei Feng and the Emissary (removed Emissary from list) to see how much it would affect her ability to do the work I expected of her. It opened my eyes to how much I would have to alter my plans for getting those VP. Develop that backup plan by playing the same game down the model you find yourself leaning on most (balance it out by having your opponent play down by a similar amount to simulate an even trade).

[cryion]

1 hour ago, Joel said:

I tend to find that many players aren't that adaptable - and especially gremlins.  That faction has many "obvious" choices that players get familiar with and use relentlessly.  

Very true. I would lie if I said I dont fall into that sort of trap more often than not. But one tries to improve.

I found Alex' new Zipp review quite fascinating in that regard, when he started talking about how differently you (assuming you are the Joel he was talking about ) value certain models compared to himself. It reminded me to be more mindful about the opinions and experiences of as many players (with an interest in competition) as possible.
I feel it's sometimes hard, though, to gather a lot of different opinions and experiences when it comes to Malifaux. Oh well... sliding too deep into off-topic I suppose.

[Four_N_Six]

@spooky_squirrel Nailed it.  When I first started Lilith, I was told to ignore her sword for a few games and get good with her other abilities.  That's the best thing I could have been told.  Thanks to that, she's a consistent pain in the ass to opponents, and then when they decide to get too close she's just lethal.

[Joel]

30 minutes ago, cryion said:

Very true. I would lie if I said I dont fall into that sort of trap more often than not. But one tries to improve.

I found Alex' new Zipp review quite fascinating in that regard, when he started talking about how differently you (assuming you are the Joel he was talking about ) value certain models compared to himself. It reminded me to be more mindful about the opinions and experiences of as many players (with an interest in competition) as possible.
I feel it's sometimes hard, though, to gather a lot of different opinions and experiences when it comes to Malifaux. Oh well... sliding too deep into off-topic I suppose.

I am that Joel - Alex and I have had several useful Zipp chats ?

[cryion]

3 minutes ago, Joel said:

I am that Joel - Alex and I have had several useful Zipp chats ?

I would be very interested in your side of the story. Blog post imo.

[Joel]

43 minutes ago, cryion said:

I would be very interested in your side of the story. Blog post imo.

I am going to try and get my blog going again in the next few days - I've had app problems and a lack of time too

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 12/22/2016 at 1:51 PM, Four_N_Six said:

@spooky_squirrel Nailed it.  When I first started Lilith, I was told to ignore her sword for a few games and get good with her other abilities.  That's the best thing I could have been told.  Thanks to that, she's a consistent pain in the ass to opponents, and then when they decide to get too close she's just lethal.

I'll also support this argument.  I got told that before I played Lilith, and to be honest, I don't even think of her as a melee machine.  To me, she's a flexible controller.  I feel like, unless I put the sword upgrade on her, she's not even going to be expected to kill things.  It's great.