is frank an auto pick

[Starrius]

Good afternoon,

 

I'm still relative new to the game and having chosen guild to be my starting faction I have been trying and playing the masters.  Whenever I read about most lists people always say how our masters tend to have lower df or wp and just to use Francisco to bolster it.  So far other than with Perdita I've been trying to not use Frank but with the obvious low stats compared to other masters is it the general consensus that we have to use frank with most crews? or can we survive just as well without having to rely on him as a crutch.

 

Thank you in advance

[Myyrä]

There's only 3 masters that really love Franc, and they are Perdita, Sonnia and Justice. (He's a bit of a ladies man.) With the others you aren't gimping yourself by not bringing him, but he is quite good, so you could if you wanted to.

[Hagisman]

Compared with other 8SS models Francisco is better in every way. Mainly because of El Mayor's +2 to Df and Wp, but also because he is a powerful beater. His only downside in my opinion is he can become a huge target and he needs Wade In to get Hard to Kill. In competitive Malifaux he is essential in Guild, but if you don't bring him you aren't going to be that much handicapped compared with what other crews can do.

As far as Guild Crews go Francisco makes the original 3 masters better:

• Lady J - Df5 is her downside and she has a Df trigger if she succeeds the duel. So upping her to Df7 is amazing.
• Sonnia - Df4 is the lowest stat of a Master in Guild (Maybe Hoffman, but he has tricks to swap stats). her only way to up her Df is to use a zero action that can give a bonus to either Ca, Df, or Wp. You'll want to save that for Ca 9 so having Frank is a big YES!.

I've been getting some good play with Frank in Nellie as well, because he can get fast to Flurry and move.

[Adran]

Frank is NOT essential for any master.  But he is a safety net, that a lot of people don't like to put down. Every model in the game looks a lot better with +2 Df and Wp, but  you look at the models stats, and guild aren't really looking that much lower than any other faction. 

Guild masters seem to really like their 9's. Everyone wants Perdita to have Df and Wp 9, and Sonnia to have Ca 9. It is actually possible to play them with stats of only 7, and still do well.

I find Frank is a model that I normally find easy to remove, and am happy to see him facing me. And unless you are playing your master really in the face, I am normally able to ignore the master whilst it is boosted and take out other stuff instead. It is also  worth pointing out that he can use El mayor on a model other than the master. 

 

 

 

 

 

[trikk]

He is not necessary but he has a great damage output and a lot of utility with Enfratente, Finesse and El Mayor. 

I think that Justice likes him the most as she has Df5 and needs to be in the thick of it and she`s quite squishy even with those 14 Wds.

Same case goes for McMourning.

 

Sonnia likes him because if she`s engaged you negate her biggest advantage and she has Df4. You can try to play with more Burning-Focused crew and hide her behind walls but thats not that easy to do.

Perdita likes him because she has 10 Wds and while her Df and Wp are very high she`s can`t take many hits. I do however think that she needs him the least out of those four.

 

I sometimes take him with Nellie as a Df6Wp7 Numb Peacekeeper is a nice sight for your opponent and Fast Frank hits like a truck.

[JDAntoine]

As others have said, Francisco is optimal for aggressive masters, masters who 'go out for the hunt' and by doing so risk the option of recieving return fire. Sonnia, Justice and Perdita fit those roles very well and these are the strongest aspects of them even. 

So I wouldn't say he is mandatory but a lot of awesome Guild Masters do prefer him being around them. On top of that he's very sharply priced, requiring only Wade In to become a Henchmen which requires caution and those kind of deals usually are only found on 10+ SS models but the combination for Francisco comes in at the low cost of 9 SS (with Wade In).

Hoffman, McCabe and Nellie don't need him perse, where I'd say the others most certainly do. The only reasons to why though is because I feel their strenghts are not easily optimized with Frank. While they do have other great synergy options available to them, often at a good cost aswell. 

[trikk]

He also has access to Hermanos De Armas which is a pretty useful upgrade to have.

[JDAntoine]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

He also has access to Hermanos De Armas which is a pretty useful upgrade to have.

Certainly! Practically any (Family) upgrade he can have is a very useful option for him, probably making him an even more common sight due to the flexability he has on top of his great cost. 

[Myyrä]

9 hours ago, trikk said:

He also has access to Hermanos De Armas which is a pretty useful upgrade to have.

That is perhaps the greatest reason I take him with Sonnia.

[Morgs]

Thinking any model is an auto include can severely gimp you as they may not be useful for the schemes and strat effectively leaving you 'down' some stones compared to the enemy. He is pretty darn close to it though with the masters mentioned above.

[Ludvig]

If Hermanos de armas had been a general guild upgrade I think a lot of people would rely less on Francisco. Hell, if only the Judge hadn't randomized in melee and been affected by cover with his (0) push I would have picked him a lot more.

Francisco isn't mandatory, I've won lots of games without him. He does offer a lot of neat tricks at a very decent cost though so I'm often tempted to bring him myself.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Morgs said:

Thinking any model is an auto include can severely gimp you as they may not be useful for the schemes and strat effectively leaving you 'down' some stones compared to the enemy. He is pretty darn close to it though with the masters mentioned above.

I do agree with you partially but a good counter example are austringers and for example a doppleganger or a belle. They are usually so versatile that they can't really do you harm. I will leave Frank with Sonnia for now and try to play with watcher and spellcasters focus shooting with burninf trigger.

[JDAntoine]

Yeah depending per Master I'd say there are certainly some auto-inclusions. Not always because schemes are optimal for it but simply because of the flexability the piece/Francisco has. Frank, Austringers and Pathfinders are extremely flexible, self-sufficient, have a great damage track and can most certainly also influence the game with schemes. 

Cost would be the prime reason auto-includes excist (I'd say both Sam and the Judge are 1 SS overcosted), availability to upgrades being the second. Because the quantity of upgrades Francisco has available is akin to that of most Masters and not of most Henchmen. In the long run they are all advantages specifically found on him.

Wade In makes him a great offensive Bodyguard, Hermanos De Armas gives him added movement controls who suddenly allow you to almost make all offensive Masters move like Perdita. But others could be added if you so desire. 

Now to come back to the question at hand, for a ton of Masters he is an auto pick because of the great deal you get on him. We havn't even began to discuss Finesse, Ml 7 with a good damage track and Flurry. I do wish we had more sharply priced Henchmen like him by large because just like the other mentioned above models they are great training wheels for new Guild players that don't really need to come off on higher levels. I like combinations like Papabox or models like the Brutal Effigy a lot aswell but still are in the 'glass cannon box' that a lot of Guild models seem to be in and Frank most certainly is not what you can call a glass cannon in melee. 

[trikk]

If Sam and Judge would be 8SS I still wouldnt take Sam. He has no support abilities, is very squishy, very slow, requires setup to dish out his great damage and hes only cool and unique thing is Flaming Bullets but they are not worth the 9SS and they probably wouldnt be worth it at 8. 

 

Judge would be fine if he had blades and bullets on an upgrade and unrelenting leader in his core package along with his ca action buffed. Stand for judgement is pretty subpar to all similar abilities. I also think that Flames of the lit rework would probably buff him.

 

Right now he offers the occasional push, fights in melee and shoots (both worse than frank) and is the generic 5df 6wp henchmen we have

[ringsnake]

Plus which, if you want a Hench that's a Witch Hunter to go with Sonnia you can now use Doc Grimwell for that 9SS, who gets an extra walk action, is unimpeded, and if you elect not to lobotomize or charge, he can do Doctor's Orders to give friendly models an extra 4" move as a (1) by discarding a card. Since I only ever seem to draw cards with a value of three or less into my hand, it's no real loss.

I haven't even used the Witchling Handlers yet, but I'm quite certain that for 8SS Heartsbane is superior to them. She gets an extra 4" move as a (0) with "Right Behind you Dear" and with the right trigger gets an extra attack off of it.

My one mistake with them (I'm new to the game) was using them with McMourning just for funs, and there's only a little movement synergy there. Replacing his nurses with orderlies was not a good move. Though with Grimwell and Heartsbane the play style seems to be pretty direct. Advance the whole group quickly forwards and kill stuff. 

[Karolicker]

I like him with Lucius. Pair him with the doppelganger, get six ml7 swings at top of turn.

 

Other than that I always take him with lady J and dita. Sometimes with McMourning. I don't often bother with sonnia and mccabe. 

[JDAntoine]

11 hours ago, trikk said:

If Sam and Judge would be 8SS I still wouldnt take Sam. He has no support abilities, is very squishy, very slow, requires setup to dish out his great damage and hes only cool and unique thing is Flaming Bullets but they are not worth the 9SS and they probably wouldnt be worth it at 8. 

 

Judge would be fine if he had blades and bullets on an upgrade and unrelenting leader in his core package along with his ca action buffed. Stand for judgement is pretty subpar to all similar abilities. I also think that Flames of the lit rework would probably buff him.

 

Right now he offers the occasional push, fights in melee and shoots (both worse than frank) and is the generic 5df 6wp henchmen we have

I'd personally consider Sam at 8, to me Rapid Fire/Flurry/Nimble and other "+1 AP" options are still akin to upgrades. It's just that with the Wk and Cg frame Sam works with I wouldn't want to pay more for it /the same than I would elsewhere. I do believe (especially with the new Brutal Em) that he could be the one who finishes the job when the target is burning.
A 3/4/5 damage track that essentially turns into (non LoS needed, Cover ignored) 4/5/6 x3 is good in the right context. I would agree that it's unlikely for him to recieve much more on top of that. But I've found myself running Frank with Wade In most of the time aswell despite other good options...

Regarding Judge I agree, again though 8 SS for me would be the magic number to where I'd seriously consider him over the likes of Frank. 

However as said I am a complete noob to the game. I am still floating somewhere in the realm of, if I pay 8 SS for it I at least want it to have 8 Wd and a decent Df. To me Sam is clearly overcosted at 9 SS and the Judge is aswell but less obviously so. If Bound by Law and Long Arm Pistol was Sh 6 I'd be very close to consdering him for a couple of builds even at 9 SS.

 

[Surrealistik]

Indispensible with Sonnia + Wade In/Hermano for escorting her around and compensating for that terrible Wk/conserving her precious AP (he's essentially to Sonnia what Snow Storm is to Rasputina).

Strong with Perdita and McMourning for his SS.

Useful with McCabe (I don't have much experience with him however).

Don't play Lady J/Lucius at all, and Hoffman doesn't really get full mileage out of him.

Love him paired with Queeg and especially Sidir when possible. Promises + By Your Side while Sidir is buffed with El Mayor is quite good.

I wouldn't consider him a 'mustpick' outside of Sonnia, but he's pretty close in the case of Perdita and McMourning given the alternatives (or lackthereof) and Promises synergy.

[jerhien]

You should have a good reason not to take Francisco. 

[4thstringer]

Ive been thinking about what makes frank essential, and I think it is more than his value.   Guild, in a lot of matchups, has to put a model into a risky position in order to provoke the attempted alpha strike.  In many cases, their speed  or dependence on projectile attacks messes them up too much otherwise.  

Is this true of all matchups?  Nope.  But its true of enough to make him a big deal in a ton of you games.

[JDAntoine]

It certainly is more as his simple value. I think that the key difference for him versus most of our other Enforcer options are his personal survivability, option to buff Leader and option to push Leader. Which often are essentials to pretty much any Leader. In essence if your Leader wants to hunt down oppossing models (and the mayority of Guild Masters do seem to prefer that) Francisco is a great choice. In other cases if your newer to the game additional Df and Wp on your Master is always welcome because as a newer player your bound to make some more mistakes. So in almost every scenario Francisco is a good choice. 

The few who don't want him (in my opinion) would be:
- Hoffman, who's often looking for more Contruct synergies
- McCabe, who's simply said too fast or would be restricted if he needs to keep up with Francisco's pace (or the other way around)
Which in my honest opinion leaves Sonnia, Lady J, Perdita, McMourning, Lucius and even Nellie to be great Masters with Francisco...

I do believe that models like the Brutal Emissary, Queeg and especially Phiona will offer very interesting alternatives. But not everybody has the Emissary and Phiona is not yet available. Especially Phiona does a few things very akin to Francisco however it's more likely that a Master who will thake Francisco will add both instead of running either. I think Lady J, McMourning, Lucia and Nellie will like the Stone Pillar a lot. 

[4thstringer]

I want to work on the counterpoint to this.  Here are some reasons he might not be an auto take for you: 

1.  Your list isnt made to maximize the efficiency of the models you are taking.

2. You are using some combo that involves big models, and taking frank with upgrades on top of that will leave you with less activations than you are comfortable with.

3.  You dont like how squishy he feels and that he eats your soulstones.

4.  You are playing against someone who takes triggers away, making his damage spread sad.

5.  You hate his stupid hat, and dont have the alt sculpt.

[Mutter]

18 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

5.  You hate his stupid hat, and dont have the alt sculpt.

Well, in October you can remedy that easily, at least ...

[JDAntoine]

Your certainly always looking for optimized synergies. The thing with Frank to me is that due to his personal flexability you can get a ton of synergy out of him almost regardless of master. Even the two mentioned above can build lists who would profit from the use of Frank for example. 

To me Frank can also be part of a combo that requires big models. +2 Df and Wk is not exclusive to your Master. 
To me Frank does not feel squishy. Ml attacks usually still have the biggest damage tracks and he does not mind being in Ml with most pieces.
Thaking away his triggers or his hat is always an option but that applies to every model and I do not really see that as a specific weakness.  

[Ludvig]

On 2016-10-23 at 1:01 PM, JDAntoine said:

The few who don't want him (in my opinion) would be:
- Hoffman, who's often looking for more Contruct synergies
- McCabe, who's simply said too fast or would be restricted if he needs to keep up with Francisco's pace (or the other way around)
Which in my honest opinion leaves Sonnia, Lady J, Perdita, McMourning, Lucius and even Nellie to be great Masters with Francisco...
 

McCabe can easily get Francisco up the board by throwing him a couple of upgrades (one of which grants him nimble, that's 13" of free movement) and you then have  to ml flips. When Francisco is stuck in Luna can grant him defensive so he has at a least a tiny chance to survive for a few activations. When activating he regenerates from the elixir of life upgrade. If they bring him down to htk again you activate McCabe, bring home the elixir and heal him above htk again. I don't think I need to tell anyone how good it is to have nimble and flurry on the same model. It's also quite handy to have McCabe at 9df and tying stuff up while Francisco gets healed again and again. Add some decent minion for McCabe to reactivate with black flash and you have quite the tag team.