Ramos, am I doing it wrong?

[KuVenet]

So, I've had a lot of recent activity here on the forums, as my enthusiasm has been rekindled for the game pretty hard. When I got back into Malifaux I wanted to do something different so I went with Arcanists and chose Ramos, now my collection has been growing steadily for the past couple of weeks. I have been feeling out different builds with him, as a friend told me that if i wanted to get a good grasp read the fluff and build based off that. So I did some reading and listened to everything from breachside. I've been lucky to get quiet a few games under my belt in the past 2 weeks. I would say roughly 9 games. I have been playing Ramos pretty steadily through all those games minus 2 games where I played Mei Feng.  My dilemma is that I feel like I am playing him wrong on some sense?

This is normally what I have been running.

Ramos with  UNDER PRESSURE and COMBAT MECHANIC as upgrades

Joss with OPEN CURRENT

2 of the Large Arachnids

2 Steam Arachnids

1 Arachnid Swarm

1 Brass Arachnid (his totem)

I was trying to make the most out of being unimpeded and well his theme to me seems to be taking spider robots. Am I doing this wrong? I know that the starter box comes with Howard Langston, but in my first couple of games I played with him, my opponent made a B line for him to kill him off quickly so I never really got much use out of him that's why I took him out of my list builds.  I feel like I am going at this the wrong way, but I was trying to really give the list a good run before I asked for help as many times it just takes practice to get a combination down. 

So could I get some advice? possibly some other sort of list builds that have worked for others in the past or that you currently use?

 

Other Models I own

Union Miners x3

Soul Stone Miner x2

Howard Langston

Rail Golem

Rail Workers(Ten Thunders cross over guys)

That is currently what I have to work with aside from the list I provided above as to what I am playing. IF possible please don't give me a whole new list where it uses nothing that I already own. I'm looking for advice with what I have currently, and maybe A (as in singular) purchase I could make to help in some capacity that i am missing. 

Thanks for any input.

[Durza]

Never hire steam arachnids with Ramos, you are going to be summoning them all game so don't bother. The swarms are also not that great a hire because of how easy they are to get with Ramos.

If you're ok with opening every game the same way look at picking up an electrical creation or mechanical toolkit and killing it turn 1 with Joss for 2 scrap to get the summons going.

Howard is a priority target for your opponent because of how hard he murders things, taking him with imbued energies can help keep him back until you have a juicy target to kill,  you discard Imbued energies to walk, nimble and then charge/flurry to kill something, or if you are close enough just nimble over and get 4 attacks from fast and flurry. Joss also loves imbued energies as he is pretty slow. 

[spooky_squirrel]

Your opponent made a beeline towards Hank (Howard Langston) because your opponent knows what Hank can do. Unfortunately, this means you're not getting to see it for yourself. If you have someone who's willing to play in "getting to know your models" mode, ask them to help you get a feel for what Hank can do. Once you see how brutally ugly he can be in combat, you'll understand why canny opponents will neutralize him before he can do his thing (twice over, with reactivate). Reading through threads here and looking at how some of the people in my local meta play, I see use for Hank as a counter-charge element (not running the front line, but instead responding later in the turn to things that happen during the turn), but that's not always going to be the case.

 

Something to keep in mind for Ramos and his crew: his goal is to complete schemes and strats. If your opponent burns most of their activations trying to contain Joss and Hank, your spiders are dropping scheme markers and scoring (and doing their job, aka getting stuff done).

 

With the other models you have, you might drop in a Rail Worker or two (they are living constructs, so benefit from Ramos' synergies and can drop scrap markers, as well as being significantly harder to remove than their point cost indicates). You also might use a soulstone miner to have something rooting around in the backfield (theirs) to keep them on their toes, but if Ramos is cranking out spiders every turn, you're not hurting for scheme runners.

 

Other people with more experience can provide more details and corrections to my thinking, of course

[Myyrä]

 

Never hire steam arachnids with Ramos, you are going to be summoning them all game so don't bother. The swarms are also not that great a hire because of how easy they are to get with Ramos.

If you're ok with opening every game the same way look at picking up an electrical creation or mechanical toolkit and killing it turn 1 with Joss for 2 scrap to get the summons going.

Steam Arachnid is actually a better hire than Electrical Creation if you plan on killing it with Joss. You can charge it without taking damage.

[spooky_squirrel]

Also: get the generalist upgrades cards. That gives you all of the cards (up to the newest ones) for your models, to include the holy grail Imbued Energies, which will make Hank and Joss do so much more for you, whether they live to gain fast or die to fill your hand.

[spooky_squirrel]

 

Steam Arachnid is actually a better hire than Electrical Creation if you plan on killing it with Joss. You can charge it without taking damage.

With the Electrical Creation, you can use Ramos' (0) action to inflict two damage on it, but you need to have your order of operations fixed for this: Electrical Creation activates first (takes 1 damage for activating, has 2 wounds left) and runs ahead of Ramos (end slightly more than 8" in front of Ramos). Next activation in order is Ramos, magnetism gets you 6" closer to the now wounded Electrical Creation, then strips its last two wounds (triggering explosion, hence the 'slightly more than 8"') and leaves the first scrap marker you'll be summoning spiders off of.

[Myyrä]

 

With the Electrical Creation, you can use Ramos' (0) action to inflict two damage on it, but you need to have your order of operations fixed for this: Electrical Creation activates first (takes 1 damage for activating, has 2 wounds left) and runs ahead of Ramos (end slightly more than 8" in front of Ramos). Next activation in order is Ramos, magnetism gets you 6" closer to the now wounded Electrical Creation, then strips its last two wounds (triggering explosion, hence the 'slightly more than 8"') and leaves the first scrap marker you'll be summoning spiders off of.

Great advice, because I kill the model with Ramos every time I plan to kill it with Joss. It just keeps happening. I can't control it.

[KuVenet]

Im confused, so take electrical creations to kill them and then make spiders out of them?  Is that what you are saying?

[Squirrelich]

 

Im confused, so take electrical creations to kill them and then make spiders out of them?  Is that what you are saying?

Yes you take one to create the first turn scrap, but you also get a zero action push out of Ramos in the bargain because you use magnetism to kill it (be aware of your ranges or you may take damage from it exploding). Alternatively, as stated earlier, you can take a mechanical toolkit or spider instead to kill with Joss (which includes him moving forward because he charges) and this will give you two scrap (because of his ability) for the first two turns of spider summons.

Without buying new models, using the hire and move a spider then having Joss charge it will work just fine for scrap generation (until that Black Joker appears...)

[spooky_squirrel]

Joss and the large arachnids are good buddies--Joss spills spare parts everywhere, and the large spiders eat them to get bonuses in combat. This will all need to happen closer to the center of gravity for the strat/scheme pool, so might not be a turn 1 thing. Hank, Joss, and the large steam arachnid can form an interesting 3-part 'distraction carnifex' while you run schemes.

[retnab]

Specifically with Joss or the Large Arachnids, as they get two Scrap Markers from one body, yes.  If you're wanting a list similar to what you have that might work a bit better, try something like this:

Ramos (6ss cache, Arcane Reservoir, Under Pressure)

Joss (Bleeding Edge Tech)

Howard Langston

2x Large Arachnids

Steam Arachnid

Brass Arachnid

Obviously depending on schemes and things, but this is just something that will work with what you have.  Large Arachnids and Rail Workers can swap out for each other pretty easily.  The Steam Arachnid in there is for Joss to kill turn one (if you don't Black Joker either damage flip it's a guaranteed 2 Scrap turn one, if you get a Mobile Toolkit it's 1ss cheaper for the same job).  Brass Arachnid and Howard Langston are best of friends if Brass can give Howard Reactivate.  That'll give him a non-linear 28" charge threat turn one (activates once, walks 3x.  Activates again, walks, charges) and you'll suddenly see why your other players try to kill him ASAP.  The Large Arachnids are good, especially if you can get into that Under Pressure aura they can get really nasty with  to damage, basically guaranteeing you can cheat in the Severe damage when you need it.  Hope this helps!

[spooky_squirrel]

 

Im confused, so take electrical creations to kill them and then make spiders out of them?  Is that what you are saying?

Just take one, don't worry about the electrical creation summoning upgrade for Ramos. It's a relatively cheap way to get a free move and scrap marker off of a model that's not going to survive the game in the first place. If you've got an 11T (or higher) in hand, you can get three spiders off of that one scrap marker and a soul stone. Otherwise, you can gamble for two (plan to cheat in what you need and/or stone for the Tome, which is what is typically the first turn for Ramos).

[daniello_s]

 

Steam Arachnid is actually a better hire than Electrical Creation if you plan on killing it with Joss. You can charge it without taking damage.

Mobile Toolkit is even better for this simple task

[Myyrä]

 

Mobile Toolkit is even better for this simple task

Yes, assuming you don't want it to do something else.

[retnab]

 

Yes, assuming you don't want it to do something else.

Nasty turn 1 play: Toolkit gives Howard 's or Armor +1, Joss kills it, Brass gives Howard Reactivate, Ramos gets Scrap to play with and Howard gets a turn 1 murder spree still 

[spooky_squirrel]

 

Yes, assuming you don't want it to do something else.

The mobile toolkit's other abilities are what make me lean towards using either a hired spider or the electrical creation for the turn one factory play. Turning Hank, Joss, or other beaters up to an 11 makes it a potentially potent support piece. It's easier to kill than anything you might support with it, so your opponent might try to take it out for you (less of your own activations spent on this). Electrical Creation requires the least amount of AP to trigger (all things told) without hitting you too hard in the hiring pool or interfering with other things you might hire it to do (it only gets hired to die).

[RustAndTheCity]

The turn 1 scrap in some form is essential for Ramos. Ideally, I like to destroy something with Joss (mobile toolkit, spider or electrical creation) to get 2 scrap.

 

I think some different upgrades would help you too. Field generator on Ramos is great. Arcing screen gives +flips on defense in a bubble for constructs. Makes it harder to hit your spiders. Totally worth it.

 

Bleeding edge tech on Joss lets your spiders regenerate. So you summon a spider at 3 wounds and it heals to 4 when it activates.

 

I'd second using Howard Langston as a counter punch. He goes down pretty easily. make life.uncomfortable for your opponent by having him safe behind terrain to take out threats that might try to attack Joss or Ramos.

 

I like to summon spiders and make a ball of spiders, Joss and Ramos to control the central areas. If the opponent sends in beaters then tie them up and plink away damage on them with the spiders or chop them up with Joss. The large arachnid would work nicely in the ball too.

[KuVenet]

Thank you everyone for the advice and the tips and tricks! I'm learning a lot.

[hydranixx]

General consensus is that the electrical creation is easier to work with for your turn 1 scrap, since you know with only 2 wounds to chew through after it actives, Joss' gun and Ramos' magnetism are very AP efficient.

That said, there's some games where you don't mind having Joss charge up the field to get some extra movement in the process. That's the type of game where opting for the toolkit saves you 1ss, which would improve your otherwise decent 6ss pool into a more reliable 7ss pool, or lets you buy that one extra copy of Imbued Energies on one of your beaters.

Finally, there's also games you might want to hire both the electrical creation to give you easy scrap markers, and the toolkit to casually hand out buffs to your constructs for a few turns, before blowing himself up to hurt everyone nearby.

So I guess I'd recommend buying or making both the electrical creation & mobile toolkit to give your hiring pool more flexibility.

On the topic of what to else to add to your hiring pool, I can't help but suggest Johan. He's very strong, even without a few M&SU members around, and it just so happens that almost every single model you've listed is a M&SU member. He loves hanging out with free spiders that Ramos spits out, as they get in the way of threats and reduce their DF, so Johan can smash them to pieces. He is super flexible in that he can also opt to simply heal up to 4 M&SU models with 6" at once or remove conditions.

[Fog]

Wow, I remember when people thought i was crazy for running the creation.  It's amazing how minds change over the years.

 

personally, I find the extra inch joss gets from charging isn't worth the potential push for Ramos or the choice of where joss gets to be (you lose an inch walking and shooting the creation, who cares?) in most circumstances.  The extra soul stone is nice, but I tend to run with six anyway, I normally don't miss the seventh.

[spooky_squirrel]

 

personally, I find the extra inch joss gets from charging isn't worth the potential push for Ramos or the choice of where joss gets to be (you lose an inch walking and shooting the creation, who cares?) in most circumstances.  The extra soul stone is nice, but I tend to run with six anyway, I normally don't miss the seventh.

I'm also a fan of the idea of Joss having the potential to follow up into a cluster of spiders instead of waiting in the open at/near lure and other nasty effect ranges that you don't want/need disrupting your delivery or pulling apart your plan. I've rope-a-doped opponents' hitters out of their comfort area and into easy pounce range of my own stuff because they activated too early; I don't want to have someone pull it on me. If enough activations occur before you get to moving Joss, you can use him to advance your schemes/strat play instead of advancing your factory machine.

Then there's also the simple fact that the Electric Creation/Magnetism approach is reliable, almost to the point of unstoppable (depending on how your opponent's crew is set up). If they try to stop it, killing the EC drops the scrap marker anyway, and something that pops up (or dives deep into) the middle of your M&SU spider farm is going to have a bad time unless they're locking down Ramos' summoning.

[Bengt]

 

Then there's also the simple fact that the Electric Creation/Magnetism approach is reliable, almost to the point of unstoppable (depending on how your opponent's crew is set up). If they try to stop it, killing the EC drops the scrap marker anyway, and something that pops up (or dives deep into) the middle of your M&SU spider farm is going to have a bad time unless they're locking down Ramos' summoning.

Well the obvious way of stopping it is to kill it with the Judge, he has final response and a ranged attack. Granted he is not that common a pick, but unless you have brought some backup scrap generation (EC summon or whatever) it would make Ramos quite sad if it do happen. 

If you are going the charge-with-Joss route I think a Mannequin is better than a Spider since it has one less Wd (Toolkit is of course better still if you have it and don't want to use its buffs).

[Math Mathonwy]

You can also look at your cards and if you have the correct ones, summon the Electrical Creation, kill it with Ramos and then Summon the Spiders. Have a plan B if the cards aren't there but that way you don't waste models.

[daniello_s]

I played against Ramos and his hard-core crew (Joss, Howard, Cassandra and Large Arachnid) last night and I my Jack was struggling like hell with this pesky crew and Arachnid-factory. I lost 6-9 as I couldn't push through the wall of Arachnids and his beaters fast enough to catch Ramos as he was my Take Prisoner target. Ramos can be really annoying guy...

[Fog]

Another plus to doing the job with Ramos is zero chance for someone like sue to stick his nose into your affairs.  Kill something, turn it into spiders immediately, pass turn.