Patzer Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 The problem with Leve was that he was really good in a number of categories. Hitting power, hiring options, free models, resilience, and speed. Now he will have a little less hitting power, and will have slightly harder time to compose crews with a smaller cache. He still will get two models for free, hire some of the other factions best options with little effort, and he can still just wipe out really strong master, henchmen, enforcers. I like that the change to Channel also has made To The Earth Return a little more viable. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 This lots of damage was often negated by hard cover so more than often I was able to shoot the model in hard cover thanks to Channel and got 2 damage (3 if I were lucky on damage flip). Also Masters/Henchman could spend a stone to put me on damage flip if needed. The most horrendous damage I was able to pull was not from Unmaking but for melee attacks. So in the end my Levi used to be like Seamus if I was using Unmaking - Minion and Enforcer hunter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 42 minutes ago, daniello_s said: ... was not from Unmaking but for melee attacks. Yes, and I did horrible, horrible things to people in melee. With Survivalist, I frequently had two attacks at and one at . Frequently, I didn't even need my third (or fourth, in case of Oathkeeper) AP because everything I could reach was dead. I don't understand why people keep arguing like the Channel cuddle only effects shooting? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I believe that was illegal as channel says you must suffer exactly 2 damage, so if you`re at 2 with Survivalist and use channel you don`t get the but it really doesn`t change that much in the broader picture 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mutter said: Yes, and I did horrible, horrible things to people in melee. With Survivalist, I frequently had two attacks at and one at . Frequently, I didn't even need my third (or fourth, in case of Oathkeeper) AP because everything I could reach was dead. I don't understand why people keep arguing like the Channel cuddle only effects shooting? Probably because unless you are basically giving Levi away and not summoning a waif Levis melee threat range is 6" one of the shortest in the game if you want to use levi as a melee master against me I would look forward to playing you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 14 minutes ago, katadder said: if you want to use levi as a melee master against me I would look forward to playing you To be fair, you look forward to playing anyone 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 true, the more games the merrier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 10 minutes ago, katadder said: Probably because unless you are basically giving Levi away and not summoning a waif Levis melee threat range is 6" one of the shortest in the game if you want to use levi as a melee master against me I would look forward to playing you True. Playing him as melee master most of the time requires loads of luck with initiative flip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoylentRobot Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I dont mind these changes, its not like i ever played Levi or Hamelin in a competitive way as it was. I can understand why others might be upset tho. Also why does everyone keep saying cuddled? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Its a nice way of saying something was n e r f e d (and the forum automatically changes it ;)). It means something was downgraded in power level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 3 hours ago, katadder said: ramos has the same damage track but no pistol (perhaps they should have removed the pistol symbol from levi). Look again, Ramos has on Electrical Fire. The action has a rule about not randomising when shooting into an engagement but will still be suffer the other penalties of projectiles (cover and not using it while Ramos himself is engaged). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 2 hours ago, katadder said:I appreciate Wyrd explaining the whys behind this, however does this mean everytime the US "meta" whines about something enough a model gets screwed? This is durogatory, and mis-represents how Wyrd approaches changes in the FAQ/Errata. People from all players bases have chimed in (beta testers, Wyrd testers, levi players, non levi players, tournament players, non-tournament players, etc) that Levi was just above the power curve. He had access to an ability (that he effectively could use for free; his wounds which he didn't care about) to gain something as good as a focus. The change (as Justin clearly lays out) was from Wyrds many observations and reports posted throughout the interwebz. To state and single out one "meta" as the whinners who caused Wyrd to make this change is an inaccurate statement and contrary to the facts. People whine about models and characters from all "metas" all the time. As Justin further explains in this very thread, changes are only made to cards in extreme cases. This was one of those, not because of whinning but simply because Levi mechanically had access to something above and beyond what other masters not only in the same faction had access to but above and beyond what other masters and other factions had access to. This concept has always been a pillar of Malifauxs design (as far as I can tell) and it only became evident after 1000s of games that Levi was a smidge too good and broke this design philosophy. I imagine it's why he didn't loose channel but rather rchannel was reduced on its effectiveness to be in line with other masters who mechanically have access to similar abilities. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 16 hours ago, Justin said: I hope that Leveticus players see this errata as an opportunity to explore the wide range of possibilities which Leveticus still offers. He is no longer locked into the role of damage-dealer, and you may even find that his play is more interesting and dynamic. 12 hours ago, daniello_s said: I fully support change in Channel mechanics as the previous one was waaay to powerful however Leveticus will always be locked into the role of damage-dealer because simply he has not other viable actions to offer. His From Ash upgrade is too expensive even to consider and Desolate Soul supports killing play style so the statement I quoited above sounds at least funny Still waiting for any possible ways to see Levi an non-locked into sole damage dealing role master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jafar Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, daniello_s said: Still waiting for any possible ways to see Levi an non-locked into sole damage dealing role master I checked yesterday his upgrades, as summoner he is too weak. We can get only 1 scrap marker per turn (from Rusty), and with 9crows+ we can summon abomination. It always something, but I think, we have better things to spend that card and AP. Other summoners for 9card will get 5ss model but it may need different resource than scrap marker and our abomination is on full wounds. But if the summoner will have 11card or better, he/she can get more expensive (ss cost) model, but with levi you still only get abomination...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderwiggin Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Late to this post, but yeah you've got my support and all my heart for listening Wyrd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 18 minutes ago, Jafar said: I checked yesterday his upgrades, as summoner he is too weak. We can get only 1 scrap marker per turn (from Rusty), and with 9crows+ we can summon abomination. It always something, but I think, we have better things to spend that card and AP. Other summoners for 9card will get 5ss model but it may need different resource than scrap marker and our abomination is on full wounds. But if the summoner will have 11card or better, he/she can get more expensive (ss cost) model, but with levi you still only get abomination...... Hello! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jafar Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Hello! Point for you It's easier to summon some Boyou boys and heal them, but Levi has some other over Sommer (2 free models, hire pool etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayne Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jafar said: Other summoners for 9card will get 5ss model but it may need different resource than scrap marker and our abomination is on full wounds. Collodi doesn't. He gets Wicked Dolls (4SS), Marionnettes (3SS) or (with an upgrade) effigies (4SS). He has no native way to generate the scrap to summon from either, where Levi comes with Alyce in his box, nor can he summon when he kills an enemy model (and this is an amazing way to summon, the activation swing is huge). Is Levi a powerful summoner? Nope, he's no Ramos or Nicodem but neither is he intended to be. Summoning for him, like Collodi, is a supplementary ability on top of his main focus. Back on topic, I like the changes and really like the effort given to explaining the process behind them. After years of playing a certain other system (might rhyme with Boarspammer), I'm still happily surprised to see the amount of involvement Wyrd has with it's community. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 20 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Hello! Still way better in the supporting role than Levi. Not to mention he can do crazy amount of damage as well. And still waiting on any support-offers for Levi's play-style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 27 minutes ago, Jafar said: I checked yesterday his upgrades, as summoner he is too weak. We can get only 1 scrap marker per turn (from Rusty), and with 9crows+ we can summon abomination. It always something, but I think, we have better things to spend that card and AP. Other summoners for 9card will get 5ss model but it may need different resource than scrap marker and our abomination is on full wounds. But if the summoner will have 11card or better, he/she can get more expensive (ss cost) model, but with levi you still only get abomination...... There are other ways to get more than a single scrap marker a turn. Large Arachnid and Joss, maybe there is something else too which I cannot recall. With that said, as a straight summoner Leve isn't very good. The "scrapyard-Leve" where one harvest a bunch of Scrap turn 1 to make a Desolation Engine isn't effective. However the best way of playing him as a summoner is to kill enemy models. This has always been the case, and is still the case. Probably the main reason why Leve is arguably still Outcasts best Interference/Recon master. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 But we should take another approach to him as suggested not just stick to blind killing-tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Levi is still really powerful on the fringes of the battle due to his mobility and killiness. He can even do schemes far out. He can summon stuff, he's mobile and he can still kill stuff (just not everybody, in as little as two turns, like he used to be). And he brings a huge hiring pool. What more do you want? Seems legit to me, I'm still looking forward to be playing him again, and will enjoy the fact that I won't have to feel quite a dirty doing so ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomicaphex Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Late to the post as well. But support from here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 19 minutes ago, Mutter said: Levi is still really powerful on the fringes of the battle due to his mobility and killiness. He can even do schemes far out. He can summon stuff, he's mobile and he can still kill stuff (just not everybody, in as little as two turns, like he used to be). And he brings a huge hiring pool. What more do you want? Seems legit to me, I'm still looking forward to be playing him again, and will enjoy the fact that I won't have to feel quite a dirty doing so ... I agree totally with you. Just laughing out of this statement that we should explore him far more than just a hard hitter. Like he had something more to offer than that on his card 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I believe what Justin meant is that now he is not just a 16 dmg I kill your master kind of model but his ability to avoid HtK, to summon and reposition will be more impactful that raw in-yo-face damage 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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