Guild Sergeant?

[HegemonyKrcket]

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

As for Dashel. I think if his  to Attack Actions would work on melee actions he`d be pretty cool. Maybe a 1SS decrease but I think he fills his niche quite good. With A Debt he can do 3 + slow or 4 min damage which is pretty nice.

What niche does Dashel fill?

[Khyodee]

18 minutes ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

What niche does Dashel fill?

Teaches players the differences between good and bad models.

[trikk]

Support frontliner for Guardsmen. He has nice damage, a summon, 2 nice auras and is tanky. If you want to play with riflemen/dogs he`s actually pretty good. He`s useful with McCabe and a bit with Lucius.

I think guild has a lot of bad models but I`d put Dashel in the middle of the pack

[HegemonyKrcket]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Support frontliner for Guardsmen. He has nice damage, a summon, 2 nice auras and is tanky. If you want to play with riflemen/dogs he`s actually pretty good. He`s useful with McCabe and a bit with Lucius.

It seems like the 6 is a little too short to support a gunline.  And his stats seem... meh for him to be Tanky.  How does he help dogs?

[trikk]

Considering he`s not supporting snipers and the max range Guardsmen have is 14" if he`s standing 6" in front he can charge/summon/block most of the things that want to harass the gunline.

He has a decent damage track (2 with slow or 3 min, with A Debt he becomes even more threatening)

He allows dogs to focus as a (0) action which is nice for them as they have a moderate damage spike

He`s Armor +1, HtK, SS Prevention with 9 Wds. Thats more or less the survivability of the Judge and a bit lower than Ryle.

 

I`m not saying he`s great. He`s mediocre, but he buffs Guardsman, summons, can have a decent punch in melee.  I played him out of curiosity recently and he did fine. I think Handlers, Exorcists, Proxy, Scales, Hopkins and the Sergeants and a few other models are in need of buffs before him.

[HegemonyKrcket]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Considering he`s not supporting snipers and the max range Guardsmen have is 14" if he`s standing 6" in front he can charge/summon/block most of the things that want to harass the gunline.

He has a decent damage track (2 with slow or 3 min, with A Debt he becomes even more threatening)

He allows dogs to focus as a (0) action which is nice for them as they have a moderate damage spike

He`s Armor +1, HtK, SS Prevention with 9 Wds. Thats more or less the survivability of the Judge and a bit lower than Ryle.

I`m not saying he`s great. He`s mediocre, but he buffs Guardsman, summons, can have a decent punch in melee.  I played him out of curiosity recently and he did fine. I think Handlers, Exorcists, Proxy, Scales, Hopkins and the Sergeants and a few other models are in need of buffs before him.

That's very useful information.

I assume that Guild Guard are on the list of needs improvement as well?

[Cadaverousbirth]

15 hours ago, trikk said:

 I think Handlers, Exorcists, Proxy, Scales, Hopkins and the Sergeants and a few other models are in need of buffs before him.

I want to expand on this because I mostly agree.

Handlers - over-costed. Make them 7ss and now they're in the same slot as the new Death Marshall Recruiter as a specific buffer (witch hunters vs. marshalls) instead of the Francisco spot, ugh.

Exorcists - they're niche, really niche. They shine in their specific role but are lackluster everywhere else. Meh, they're fine but fall into the trap of countering your opponent without knowing what they'll bring, potentially making your strategy mute if the opponent doesn't match up with your counter. I dunno.

Governor's Proxy - complete re-write. Right now he's garbage and competes with the immensely better Brutal Effigy. Its gimmick is dumb and when your one unique thing is bad and countered easily, you belong in the trash. Maybe give him an easy heal?

Scales - another gimmick that doesn't live up to expectations. I'd prefer a powerful 2 action, once per game if your opponent has more cards than you, both players discard their hands. That would make him worth taking for the gimmick, and gives Lady J the advantage when your hand is terrible.

Sergeants - one of the models that needs to be a point less expensive or a little better stats, like was discussed earlier. Right now they follow Dashel as being under-par for their cost. I'm hoping Mounted Guard and Allison Dade will make them more worth taking, but that remains to be seen.

 

The goal wouldn't be to make these models OP deathmachines or anything, but balance them to par with similar models for their cost trying to do the same thing.

 

BONUS BEATING A DEAD HORSE:

Lucius - All he needs is in-built suites or lowering of his TNs to not be so card draining. No other master needs so much resources to do the minimum on their base card. Thralls, his Conflux, and the Terracotta Warriors help a little but they feel like several small bandages trying to fix a broken leg.

[trikk]

15 minutes ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

I want to expand on this because I mostly agree.

Handlers - over-costed. Make them 7ss and now they're in the same slot as the new Death Marshall Recruiter as a specific buffer (witch hunters vs. marshalls) instead of the Francisco spot, ugh.

Exorcists - they're niche, really niche. They shine in their specific role but are lackluster everywhere else. Meh, they're fine but fall into the trap of countering your opponent without knowing what they'll bring, potentially making your strategy mute if the opponent doesn't match up with your counter. I dunno.

Governor's Proxy - complete re-write. Right now he's garbage and competes with the immensely better Brutal Effigy. Its gimmick is dumb and when your one unique thing is bad and countered easily, you belong in the trash. Maybe give him an easy heal?

Scales - another gimmick that doesn't live up to expectations. I'd prefer a powerful 2 action, once per game if your opponent has more cards than you, both players discard their hands. That would make him worth taking for the gimmick, and gives Lady J the advantage when your hand is terrible.

Sergeants - one of the models that needs to be a point less expensive or a little better stats, like was discussed earlier. Right now they follow Dashel as being under-par for their cost. I'm hoping Mounted Guard and Allison Dade will make them more worth taking, but that remains to be seen.

 

The goal wouldn't be to make these models OP deathmachines or anything, but balance them to par with similar models for their cost trying to do the same thing.

 

BONUS BEATING A DEAD HORSE:

Lucius - All he needs is in-built suites or lowering of his TNs to not be so card draining. No other master needs so much resources to do the minimum on their base card. Thralls, his Conflux, and the Terracotta Warriors help a little but they feel like several small bandages trying to fix a broken leg.

Handlers should be 6SS and have something dropped (maybe the triggers, maybe something else). Currently the reason to bring them is speeding up Stalkers.

Exorcists have a nice ability vs Undead but its 1" range, 1/2/3 damage (which means its quite easily preventable)  and definitely lack something to make them worthwhile as they`re an expensive niche pick.

 

Governors proxy has has Wk3 which disqualifies him from anything useful. The heal is ok, but the range combined with the Wk 3 means you`ll never be able to heal anyone.

 

Scales: make it 2SS and change the flip ability as its not really used.

 

Sergeants: make the buffs available for some non-guardsmen. Up Df to 5 and Cg to 6.

[admiralvorkraft]

Man, I think the Scales are great. Hands down an auto-take as is... I don't know why people don't rate the card draw.

[trikk]

They`re not awful. If they were 2SS I`d say they`re cool. Without that they`re pretty mediocre.

[Swordkitten]

I like Exorcists - False Accusation to turn make things counts as Undead can be really powerful for the right crew.  Likewise, using Handlers with shooters means they focus in the burning shot so Sonnia can follow up more easily.

[Ludvig]

On 2016-12-08 at 3:08 PM, Swordkitten said:

I like Exorcists - False Accusation to turn make things counts as Undead can be really powerful for the right crew.  (...)

Expand on your use of exorcists please! I like the models but I have a hard time justifying them. Which crews are they really powerful in?

To me, the exorcist seems like a close-ranged model to me with its debuff and kill-trigger but the damage in ml is abysmal so any high-ranking model can easily SS-prevent to take away your trigger. I also doubt how durable the exorcist is, htw and df 6 isn't too bad but the exorcist has fewer wounds than the resser students at the same points costs (who have 8 wounds, terrifying, hard to wound and armor). Their action "lecture notes" has the same effect (preventing triggers) as making an enemy model undead with an exorcist only their action works on models 8" away and the exorcists needs to get to within 3" to apply his debuff. It is interesting to note that most resser players consider the student overcosted since they're not generally good enough but need their preferred enemy type. To me the exorcist has kind of the same problem: if you know you're up against an incoroporeal heavy list he might be ok but if your resser opponent went with the insane amount of wounds approach or has a lot of models with bulletproof instead, the exorcist probably isn't pulling his/her weight.

Within faction exorcists compete with hunters who I see as having a more generally useful application even if the Sh 5 can be extremely annoying on a 7ss model. 

[Swordkitten]

On 12/11/2016 at 11:15 AM, Ludvig said:

Expand on your use of exorcists please! I like the models but I have a hard time justifying them. Which crews are they really powerful in?

To me, the exorcist seems like a close-ranged model to me with its debuff and kill-trigger but the damage in ml is abysmal so any high-ranking model can easily SS-prevent to take away your trigger. I also doubt how durable the exorcist is, htw and df 6 isn't too bad but the exorcist has fewer wounds than the resser students at the same points costs (who have 8 wounds, terrifying, hard to wound and armor). Their action "lecture notes" has the same effect (preventing triggers) as making an enemy model undead with an exorcist only their action works on models 8" away and the exorcists needs to get to within 3" to apply his debuff. It is interesting to note that most resser players consider the student overcosted since they're not generally good enough but need their preferred enemy type. To me the exorcist has kind of the same problem: if you know you're up against an incoroporeal heavy list he might be ok but if your resser opponent went with the insane amount of wounds approach or has a lot of models with bulletproof instead, the exorcist probably isn't pulling his/her weight.

Within faction exorcists compete with hunters who I see as having a more generally useful application even if the Sh 5 can be extremely annoying on a 7ss model. 

I tend to see the no triggers aura as more of a threat to stop people engaging an exorcist.  You've a decent enough attack and are hard enough to kill that people tend to think twice about engaging.

On the other hand, making a model count as undead is great support for Lady J or the Judge who have great abilities but no guarantee they'll have targets.  Think of hitting Lenny with the Judge's 2/4/8 damage flip, for example. It also means that you have an assassinate trigger for anything you want to target, and while I know most masters/henchman will soulstone away the damage, I'm happy to strip a soulstone an attack, and a poor flip might net you three.

And if you really need to kill someone like Somer who's worth the sacrifice, you can always make them undead, move the aura into range for a turn and the Exorcist will often survive long enough for you to do the job.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Swordkitten said:

I tend to see the no triggers aura as more of a threat to stop people engaging an exorcist.  You've a decent enough attack and are hard enough to kill that people tend to think twice about engaging.

On the other hand, making a model count as undead is great support for Lady J or the Judge who have great abilities but no guarantee they'll have targets.  Think of hitting Lenny with the Judge's 2/4/8 damage flip, for example. It also means that you have an assassinate trigger for anything you want to target, and while I know most masters/henchman will soulstone away the damage, I'm happy to strip a soulstone an attack, and a poor flip might net you three.

And if you really need to kill someone like Somer who's worth the sacrifice, you can always make them undead, move the aura into range for a turn and the Exorcist will often survive long enough for you to do the job.

The Judge has Ca 5 on his attack so to reliably get more than two damage you would need to attack a model with WP 4 or less with a focused attack or while under the influence of Loco's dynamite. Lenny fits the bill but has hard to wound so against him you will likely need to have both Loco and focus. If the Judge's attack stat had bern at least a 6 I might have considered it worth buffing with Loco but it has been ages since I managed to push an attack through on such a low stat (I may actually be doing something very wrong here, I can't manage the hand draining and setup for big attacks that others seem to do so well).

Lady J has a pulse against massed undead I believe but it is a simple duel for your opponent so against one or two models you have actually decreased your chances of doing damage when compared to her usual attack unless I'm missing something.

I may be undervaluing the trigger stripping, that is a very good ability. I will have to try it when I get a game in.

[trikk]

I think Guild Marshals aren`t really unique due to the limitations of their Ca actions.

Stand for Judgement is probably the worst pseudo lure out there (I think even Oiran`s is generally better). 

It requires the same card as a Belle Lure, but has Ca5, is just a push and has the  which limits half of its functionalities - you can`t reliably push your own models out of cover without a stone or focus.

Bound by Law would be nice if it was Ca6 and ignore HtW - the most common Reserr defensive ability. 

Same goes for Justice Unleashed. It looks ok but its versus specific opponent and you`re not swinging that sword :/

 

The strip trigger ability is nice, but it only works on undead (all, not enemy, which means you better watch out where you charge the Pale Rider) which means you have to do the (0), succeed, then walk towards and survive until it matters.

[ArcticPangolin]

On 12/11/2016 at 9:15 PM, Ludvig said:

Expand on your use of exorcists please! I like the models but I have a hard time justifying them. Which crews are they really powerful in?

As is, the only Masters I think would seriously consider them for would be Lady J and McMourning, and I think the old Doc edges her out in squeezing maximum synergy from them with his ability to affect Undead models, and Plastic Surgery for vice versa.

[Ludvig]

49 minutes ago, ArcticPangolin said:

As is, the only Masters I think would seriously consider them for would be Lady J and McMourning, and I think the old Doc edges her out in squeezing maximum synergy from them with his ability to affect Undead models, and Plastic Surgery for vice versa.

I might have to give the ol doc a try.

[Gnomezilla]

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I might have to give the ol doc a try.

Sure, the exorcist also lost his own triggers once he was back within LoS of McMourning, but shutting down nearly a crew's worth of gremlin triggers was worth that trade.

[ArcticPangolin]

17 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I might have to give the ol doc a try.

I'll get there eventually, but there seem to be a set core of models people recommend that would make up a lot of points; a Nurse (or two), a Witchling Stalker, the Brutal Effigy, likely an Executioner, and now an Exorcist, not leaving room for much else.

My brain still never properly registers that he's a Guild Master...

[Ludvig]

4 hours ago, ArcticPangolin said:

I'll get there eventually, but there seem to be a set core of models people recommend that would make up a lot of points; a Nurse (or two), a Witchling Stalker, the Brutal Effigy, likely an Executioner, and now an Exorcist, not leaving room for much else.

My brain still never properly registers that he's a Guild Master...

I have most of those and a partly set list makes it easier to focus on learning the models that are new. Just the effigy, a nurse or two and a stalker should do well as a base, the stalker could perhaps be swapped for Johan to switch it up. Executioners are extra good with him, it's just that the nurse heal trick is popular since executioners are squishy. You could easily have a peacekeeper instead of the executioner and do a lot of damage.

[ArcticPangolin]

A lot of sexy damage.