The Mystery of Miss Ann Thrope's Missing Pants

[Ferossa]

What sort of self-respecting high-society lady fallen on hard times wanders around Malifaux in a skirt that won't cover her assets and no pants?

 

Really disappointed in the overtly-sexualised Wastrel model. The Miss series is usually an interesting take on models that need better gender diversity. Miss Ery, Miss Step, literally every single Miss model except this embarrassment (or is that em-bare-ass-ment?) looks like it belongs in the game. 

 

Combined with the cosplay angle, it feels like pandering to female players on the basis of their sexuality. Participate in your hobby (that already comes with an uncomfortable amount of sexualisation and sexual harassment) and in return you can get a female model with no pants and her butt hanging out! Don't you feel welcomed and included? With the placement in Wyrd Chronicles, it carries the implication that Wyrd expects its female fans to dress like Miss Ann. It's lends a sexualised, predatory air to the event and as a cosplayer who would be into this, it makes me feel like Wyrd only wants me to show up so they can stare at my ass. Serious question for Wyrd: do you have a woman on staff who looks these things over? You need one.

 

Gross. Gross. Gross. Wyrd can do better. Wyrd is better than this. What's going on?

 

Final point: It's not inclusive if you use the same body type for every female model. Not all women are size 00 with DD boobs. If you want to do a model in a short skirt with her butt hanging out, make her a size 18 and at least make women feel good when they see the model.

 

I just finished painting the McCabe box and this makes me regret buying it. Between this, Lust, and the MissingNo debacle, I'm wondering if Malifaux is the game for me. Which is disappointing, since I was praising it to the high heavens just a few days ago for NOT doing gross, alienating things like this. 

[-Loki-]

 

Final point: It's not inclusive if you use the same body type for every female model. Not all women are size 00 with DD boobs. If you want to do a model in a short skirt with her butt hanging out, make her a size 18 and at least make women feel good when they see the model.

 

Madame Sybelle?

[Ferossa]

Madame Sybelle?

 

Similar model but not-dead and as a Wastrel? I'd be all over that.

 

But Sybelle hardly counts when she's the ONLY female model with that body type, and among non-masters the ratio of female to male models is around 1:5. That's the issue, here. Wyrd has so few female models that when they make yet another sexy waifish female model it's insulting. Female players deserve to have models that look like athletes, just like male players do.

 

Miss Ann Thrope is more sexualised than anything from Colette's or Misaki's box ffs, and their whole theme is weaponised femininity. She's not a female power fantasy, she's a male sexual fantasy and it reads that way from a mile away. Moreover, the fluff for the Wastrels is pretty sketchy and adding a female model to the Black Sheep who is indistinguishable from some of my friends in their stripper gear shows a lack of understanding of the implications of one's subject matter.

 

To make it perfectly clear, again: one of my friends is a stripper and has that exact outfit. This is insulting, and Wyrd is not getting a pass.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Umm, not to sell your point short, as I'm not, but actually Miss Ery and Miss Step were sort of exceptions, not the rule. 

 

Miss Terious has pants that look painted on, Miss Demenor has short shorts that Daisy Duke would be embarrassed to wear, and Miss Pack's Nurses' uniform has a skirt that is shorter than Miss Anne Thrope's is. Other then Miss Ery and Miss Step, pretty much every Miss model that I know of has always been a cheese-cake sort of pin-up style of model.

 

This personally has been my favorite Miss artwork so far, but I didn't notice the lack of pants, which is easily fixed by painting. In any case she's going the Belle route in my crews.

 

You have a valid concern, and I appreciate your feedback, personally speaking, but I don't think it's that bad. YMMV though.

[-Loki-]

I do like that this one will have several optional ways to build it. I don't like the hat, so being able to build it with the bat and hair is nice.

[Ferossa]

I do like that this one will have several optional ways to build it. I don't like the hat, so being able to build it with the bat and hair is nice.

 

If they include pants, I redact most of my objections.

 

That said, it is a terrible piece of art for the cosplay section. It feeds into the worst stereotypes about the people who wargame, and it's going to scare off cosplayers because it's yet another article that reduces the time- and skill-intensive hobby of cosplay to something women do to make themselves sexy. It looks like it belongs in The Onion beside "Horny Male Gamers Can't Figure Out Why Women Won't Play Their Miniatures Game."

 

Umm, not to sell your point short, as I'm not, but actually Miss Ery and Miss Step were sort of exceptions, not the rule. 

 

Miss Terious has pants that look painted on, Miss Demenor has short shorts that Daisy Duke would be embarrassed to wear, and Miss Pack's Nurses' uniform has a skirt that is shorter than Miss Anne Thrope's is. Other then Miss Ery and Miss Step, pretty much every Miss model that I know of has always been a cheese-cake sort of pin-up style of model.

 

As someone who came in for 2e, I was unaware of that history and the non-sexualised alternatives to masculine models was one of the draws of the company.

 

If Wyrd wants to do a cheesecake model every year, they are welcome to, but I'll be the first to go on record as saying that the sexualisation and commodification of women are major problems in the industry and I'm deeply disappointed in Wyrd's decision to revert to such sexist practices instead of doing something new and different with the potential to improve the hobby and reach a newer, larger player base.

[PolishSausage]

sexuality is all over wyrd models, cuz like Sommer has "bigger hat than you"  and he wants you to pull his finger.

 

The question is: are you mature enough to handle the freedom of expression miniature designers have, or do you want to become Games Workshop and remove all the boobs from the slaneshee cult

 

I hope we see more daring models like this that oversexualize male and female physiology so that we all can become accustomed to reading novels about gremlins having midnight orgies.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I don't think an complaint about oversexualization is the same as a call for repression.

[Lucidicide]

Serious question for Wyrd: do you have a woman on staff who looks these things over? You need one.

 

Yes. We actually have more women working at Wyrd than men.

 

 

 

 

Between this, Lust, and the MissingNo debacle, I'm wondering if Malifaux is the game for me. Which is disappointing, since I was praising it to the high heavens just a few days ago for NOT doing gross, alienating things like this.  

 

 

I feel I should address these points.

 

1) Miss Anne Thrope. The main point I want to address here is that somehow we expect women to come in cosplay based on this model. That is not true or even remotely close to true. I asked Justin to write a story encounter for Chronicles involving the GenCon rush, which he did. He added a cosplay element to it for fun. He did not see or know what art would go with the article until everyone else had the same opportunity. The writing itself in no way even hints you should dress up like that character. The only reason the art is located there is because everyone's trying to get that figure. The actual article on cosplay in the Chronicles has nothing to do with Miss Anne Thrope. A link between the art and cosplay is tenuous at best.

 

2) Lust. What is the issue with Lust? I know for a fact that the names of the abilities and actions on that model were changed with the express purpose of avoiding sexism.

 

3) There was no MissingNo debacle. As soon as the issue was brought to our attention, the name was immediately changed and it's never gone back. It hasn't even been a point of discussion. The only place it was ever a discussion was within the community -- not within Wyrd.

 

 

I'm perfectly comfortable with you expressing your opinions and critiques. The fact of the matter is that everyone has their own inherent biases, perceptions, etc that goes into everything they do. People act all the time in ways that other people find offensive, and the only way that we can continually strive to do better and be better is for people to speak up and share their own realities with us.

 

This has happened numerous times. The whole MissingNo thing? News to us! We fixed it. We updated our forum rules and have taken moderating actions related to the use of language on the forum to ensure that this community stays positive and good. The stuff with Lust? Sure, it was a problem. Sometimes, things get written quickly by committee and you try to hit a nail on a head, only to realize that "holy crap, that was a stupid nail to aim for." So it changed.

 

So feel free to speak your mind. We read it. But you should also do your best to be fair when doing so, and quite frankly I think laying Lust (an unprinted model that you know has been changed) and MissingNo (a model that you also know has been changed) at our feet as an issue is disingenuous. We have clearly and on numerous occasions done what we can to break out of issues related to gender and sexism.

 

If you have a problem with the way Miss Anne Thrope looks, that's fine. Thank you for voicing it. I'm sure we'll have a good discussion around the office about it, and it will influence decisions we make in the future.

 

[Pyrflamme]

Can we still encourage the guys to do Miss Anne Thrope cosplay?

[Ferossa]

The issue with Lust and Missingno isn't that they were issues, it's that after concerns about the sexualisation of female models were raised and addressed, Wyrd releases a special edition model that's their most sexualised to date (counting from 2e, at least). I think, especially after the considerate and mature way the issues were resolved, there was a reasonable expectation that it would no longer be an issue.

 

There are already so few female non-masters in the game. Does the one option for representation you offer have to be sexualised? Don't women deserve a power fantasy that isn't a size 0? These are not rhetorical questions.

 

I understand you're not familiar with cosplay, so: Miss Ann Thrope is wearing a version of the Sexy Noun (in this case Sexy Wastrel), whose outfit is tight shirt + vest with buttons (to pop) + short skirt. To be extremely blunt, there's an intense, fetishy pressure on cosplayers to dress exactly like Miss Ann. Running a cosplay contest next to her is, at best, tactless and alienating to consumer group you have a lot of potential overlap with. While we're discussing good faith, please consider that I am in said cosplay demographic and I'm bringing it up because I've repeatedly said that Malifaux has a lot of appeal among nerdy women and I would like them to keep that.

 

But seriously, as I cosplayer, my mood went from       to      in the six seconds I had from reading the contest to seeing the image.

[LordZombie]

Lust? The one model of seven models that are the Seven Deadly Sins? We feel she should not be sexualized? I am so confused, but I guess it was a matter of time until a thread like this started. Well, everyone has a right to an opinion. Please feel free to continue, I have stated my opinion. 

[Lucidicide]

There is literally no cosplay contest. I understand where you might read that in, but that's not a thing that's happening. There's a Malifaux story encounter that had cosplay as a theme, where what you "won" in the Malifaux game was a model that is represented by that picture. Thus why the image is there.

 

That said, you are correct, I have no familiarity with cosplay whatsoever. I am not familiar with Sexy Noun, nor do I ever intend to be :-P My wife makes her own costumes and both my daughters' costumes for Halloween, and we'll be keeping it that way.

 

I'm happy we have you (and others like you) that can bring issues to our attention. I dislike sexism in life and in gaming. I want to be proud of my hobby and my career. If you see an issue, say something. We're not going to get things right all the time, and we're not going to listen to other's opinions all the time.

 

As I said, my issue isn't with the opinion, it's the linking of that opinion to areas that were specifically addressed because we do aim to do more and better.

 

I'm sorry it bummed you out. I'm sorry it offended you. Your feedback is noted, and trust me, we care -- you've seen it for yourself. So work with us a bit as we strive to do more, and continue to bring issues to our attention. That's how we'll get to be the best dang gaming company we can be.

 

And if you're coming to GenCon, I'd be happy to discuss with you in person, or heck, over Skype sometime.

[Justin]

I don't have much to add that Aaron didn't already. But since a lot of this concerns my work, I can't not post, so here I am.

 

Missingno, for those not in the know, was originally named Lizzy Lovelace. She was named after Ada Lovelace and Lizzy Borden, as she was going to be a murderous mad scientist type, and I felt it was a fun combination. This name, unfortunately, sounded similar to Linda Lovelace, which is the stage name of a porn star whose inclusion in the game would be highly problematic for reasons I don't feel are necessary to bring up here. Now, I had never even heard of Linda Lovelace. But once this was pointed out, I changed the name (yes, Lizzy is gone, the first name was changed to make it obvious she was a nod to Ada Lovelace). However, since there was already a debate going on in the playtest forum and some people had strong opinions about keeping the name as well as people with strong opinions about changing it, I just gave her a placeholder name until the test was done, as I wanted people talking about...playtesting in the playtest forums.

 

It was also brought up that Lust was a poor gender stereotype and we should perhaps have a male Lust. Unfortunately, the art was already locked in at this point. Now, I don't have an issue with making Lust female on principal so long as it is done right, but I do think that a sexy male Lust would have been a very good twist we could have had some fun with. But it was what it was. So I worked on what I could and changed all of Lust's ability names based on the feedback of people who did not like where she was headed.

 

As for Miss Anne Thrope being in the cosplay section, as Aaron said, the art was in the article with the scenario, not in the cosplay section. I wrote the scenario. I wrote it about cosplay because I was asked by Aaron to write an article that involved the actual Gen Con convention (which was a neat idea) and I couldn't think of a better way to justify real life Malifaux characters running around the convention. Art was added later.

 

Now, don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to come across as dismissing your point, or as being *too* defensive. But a lot of what you're referencing is my work and I feel I need to reply, as much of it was brought to my attention and then fixed to the best of my ability.

 

So, all of that said, sexism in gaming is absolutely an issue. The gaming industry needs to be better about it. The miniature game industry needs to be better about it. And at times, yes, Wyrd needs to be better about it. Let us know, constructively, how to be better, and I think we generally rise to the occasion when we can. Sexism is not fun, I confront it when I have both the knowledge and power to do so.

 

Above I have addressed the points that I was personally involved with. I won't comment on any decisions which I was not a part of. But I can comment on the people and the company who made them. And I'm proud to be a part of this team, I wouldn't have taken the job if I didn't think that Wyrd and the people involved with it were improving the industry in every way they could.

[-Loki-]

 

But seriously, as I cosplayer, my mood went from       to      in the six seconds I had from reading the contest to seeing the image.

 

To be fair, as said, the image had nothing to do with the contest aside from being the model everyone is going to be trying to get (usually due to the limited nature). It's kind of pointless brining it up again - this was a well addressed point. It was jumping to conclusions, not intended sexism.

[Justin]

I'm probably going to get some food now, and then do some reading. And then sleep.

 

I don't normally announce my evening plans in random threads. But I know threads like this can get heated, so BE NICE.

 

I may have felt the need to clarify my position on some of the points which were raised. But sexism in gaming is an issue, a serious one. We at Wyrd are very capable of defending our positions if we see fit. There is no need to gang up on anyone. There is no need for personal insults or threats. There is no need to be rude.

 

Moderators, set your phasers to ban.

 

Night all.

[Rathnard]

I feel like Miss Anne Thrope is on the same level as the models in the Viks box. Sort of a punk chick who yes, is somewhat sexy, but is also likely to cave your face in if you get the wrong idea about her. To me, that's less sexualised and more bad-ass/empowering. Hell, I hardly considered the skirt (which yes, it does seem a little short) until it was brought to my attention on this thread. 

 

That said, I understand that other people might have a problem with her and I can at least see where they're coming from. Did Wyrd make a mistake here? That's not for me to decide. But it's clear that they listen to these sorts of concerns and do their best to rectify them. 

 

The only other thing I'd add is that Wyrd does have a decent complement of female models that don't fit the "supermodel" body type. Not alot, sure, but it's more than most companies in this business. Off the top of my head;

- Sybelle (obviously)

- Jakunna Ubume (ignoring the fact that she's an emaciated dead spirit, she's also elderly)

- Abuela Ortega (Elderly AND wheelchair bound)

- Johanna (pracitcal outfit and pose, with good muscle definition IIRC)

- Mah Tucket (Gremlin, sure, but definitely not super-model looks)

 

For me personally, I'd love to see more females in the game with non-stereotypical body types. 

 

EDIT: As per Justin's post above, PLAY NICE! This is the kind of thread that can get out of hand easily if people are too careless with what they say and I'd rather not have to lock this if I can avoid it! [/modhat]

[Dirial]

I am so confused, but I guess it was a matter of time until a thread like this started.

 

And good thing it did.

[CannibalBob]

If I am thinking of the right artwork from the recent chronicle, I have to say that I really like the artwork and I am more excited for this entry to the "Miss" series than most of the previous ones.  I really like the idea of a female Wastrel and have wanted one for my McCabe crew for a little while.  And as soon as I saw that artwork I thought it was something for the RPG and not for a mini.  My first thought was that it is a shame that was not artwork for a Malifaux model.  Now that I know it is I am quite excited for it.

[Bengt]

I don't remember if this was confirmed or not, but it was speculated that the image of a woman sliding on ice on page 21 of Chronicles 15 was art for the Ice Dancer wave 3 model. She is wearing what looks like underwear and Cult of December models typically wear winter clothes so is this actually what the Ice Dancer is going to look like?

[dgraz]

What sort of self-respecting high-society lady fallen on hard times wanders around Malifaux in a skirt that won't cover her assets and no pants?

 

Maybe she dresses that way because it's easier to take advantage of men that are too busy looking at her "assets" than looking at her club. Have women stopped pulling down their neck lines when they get pulled over for speeding?

 

Some women dress sexy. Why are those women looked down on? Why should all women wear loose pants, sweaters, and flat shoes? Why is it okay for there to be topless male models but a female in a short skirt is a no-no?

I just can't wrap my mind around something that I see females deciding to do every day being so anathema in a game. Are those women "over-sexualizing" women? Should we seek legislation to make wearing a mini-skirt illegal?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think, if that is the only image being presented that it can be a bad thing. And I understand, to an extent, her point, as the over Sexualization of women is a potential problem in all industries. However there are a lot of problems in all industries, like the willingness of companies to repeatedly portray men as bumbling idiots, when the same thing done to a female character would have people up in arms. It's all relative, and people's tolerances are going to vary wildly. What is important, I think, is to have a spectrum where the average doesn't fall too far to one side. 

 

In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with Cheesecake or Beefcake. If Wyrd releases the occasional particularly sexy model, for Male or Female, there isn't anything sexist, misandrist, or misogynistic about it. Now, if that is what the entirety of the line, or even the vast majority of the line contained, and the company wasn't up front about it, that would be one thing, but at least to me, this isn't the case.

 

I'm not underselling the OP's point, and if you don't like something, as long as it's done civilly, you should be able to bring the point up for discussion.

 

To me at least, I don't see a big deal with this particular miniature. It's true a great deal of her legs is showing, and her skirt is quite short, but for all we know she is wearing the equivalent of Spankies under it. However the Bodice isn't showcasing a chest that would make even my back hurt, and she isn't in an overly sexualized pose. To me this is my favorite of all the Miss Model artworks that have come out, as at least to me there is a sense of... elegance(?) to the artist's composition. However, reasonable people can disagree, and the OP's point is still a valid concern. I don't agree with her on this occasion, but I often do, and her views should certainly be considered.

[Ferossa]

I feel like Miss Anne Thrope is on the same level as the models in the Viks box. Sort of a punk chick who yes, is somewhat sexy, but is also likely to cave your face in if you get the wrong idea about her. To me, that's less sexualised and more bad-ass/empowering. Hell, I hardly considered the skirt (which yes, it does seem a little short) until it was brought to my attention on this thread. 

 

This is a good point! And as a female Convict Gunslinger I would have less of an issue, especially since you could argue the short skirt is her reclaiming her femininity after the forced asexualisation of the Malifaux prison experience. (Different weapons obviously, but the weapons aren't the issue here.) The problem is, the Wastrels are the ruffian children of parents wealthy enough to send them to Malifaux instead of prison. There's a great selection of waistcoats, kidney-protecting belts, and smuggling jackets which makes Miss Ann stand out all the worse, because now she's not just Fem Wastrel (which is a perfectly okay distinction when your qualifiers are moustache, bowler, and cane), she's Sexy Femme Wastrel who is inexplicably wearing a quarter of the clothes as her peers—literally less than her underwear if you compare her to Belles—and she stands out like a sore thumb. I can see the model as a Convict Gunslinger or a Desperate Merc, especially with "Take This... to My Son". I don't have a problem with sexy models in Malifaux, but I want the sexy models to at least make sense.

 

Re: Cosplay, everyone's points against me are fair. Wyrd has done a really good job with Lust and incorporating her abilities with a focus on the female experience, and I'm excited for the Wave 3 release so I can share her as a gateway drug with friends who are interested-but-not-quite-sure-about-the-whole-miniatures-scene. The Masters of Malifaux offer great opportunities for cosplayers and speaking of gateway drugs the game itself is rewarding for patient, detail-oriented people who like improbable weapons. It's a really fun overlap with potential to attract a new audience that was unfortunately squandered. I expressed that poorly and I offer my apologies.

 

I've been hoping for a Miss series that redresses the gender imbalance of thematically appropriate models, so here's what I should have posted a week ago. I'm really interested in a limited edition "Miss" series for each faction with 2-3 models with the faction rotating each year. Heck, keep it cross faction and make a Wastrel/Pathfinder box. Or a F!Gunslinger and the M!Performer everyone keeps asking about. Drowned? Hanged? It would certainly make Malifaux feel more real.

 

Ten Thunders has one female Illuminated, one female Torakage, and three female Oiran. Those are the only female minion models in the faction and three of them are already sexy and not wearing pants. I like the Oiran and have a long treatise on the Last Blossom Teahouse and the incredibly tasteful deconstruction/critique of decorative femininity and orientalism because sometimes Wyrd gets it really right. But! Having only two non-sexualised female minions in a faction (out of a grand total of six) is insulting no matter how you look at it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Isn't the term Orientlism also offensive to many people?

 

As an aside, how do you know none of the Samurai are Female? Would you be able to tell under all the armor, and does it matter? I always assumed at least one of them was.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, just interested.

[Dirial]

But! Having only two non-sexualised female minions in a faction (out of a grand total of six) is insulting no matter how you look at it.

 

I'd argue about it not being insulting through the lens of historical accuracy and such if Malifaux wasn't well established as a setting were females can be kick-ass warriors, no matter what real world contemporaries would have thought about it.