Hagisman Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 As I have read these postings, it seems we haven't discussed the less obvious benefit of lucas and Lucius. What models do they allow you to bring in while playing the guild faction. Sure we could play them as a different faction but we are in the Guild section, so with that in mind does that make a significant difference in the power of the master? As an example, in a previous thread a lot of discussion was made about the guilds lack of wp options. Does Lucius ability to take mimics with an upgrade greatly make up for this? The ability to take a model like the beckoner to draw models into a fire lane? Doppelganger copying an opponents best tricks and cheating initiative flips? I am not trying to point at those two models themselves. Just illustrating that mcmourning, lucus, and lucius all bring that dual faction option which will change a game enough that I think it should be addressed. currently I find the Neverborn selection of mimics to be something wanted. Compared to how many models Guild give to Neverborn it seems unfair. 9 Guild Models mostly Minions To 5 Neverborn mostly Enforcers which can't be given Issue Commands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorschlag Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Beckoners become a whole lot more interesting...but then I don't play Lynch. Lucius walks beckoner (hopefully) passes test lures Lucius and then pushes herself with auto move trigger. Tannen is in almost every Lucius list I play, the doppleganger less so. Candy is definitely an interesting addition to Guild Lucius but is somewhat situation, leaving only Graves who I can't seem to master and have so far lost interest in. At least until the beta is complete, I would definitely like to see additional mimics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastershake Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 My problem with the McCabe v. Lucius is that, yes you can certainly give some Riflemen or Pathfinders extra shots (although giving them focused extra shots has a finite cap and doing so beyond turn 2-3 more than once a turn is often problematic), but that's all your master is doing, literally it except maybe throwing a Hidden Sniper shot (which also requires a Ram, so for those counting you're at 4 rams to do all of this).  McCabe in my experience amplifies his crew a lot, but uses very little of his own AP doing it. Attaching upgrades is a (0) and McCabe himself hits reasonably hard at Ml 6 with a built in ram and Critical Strike. He's also much less card intensive personally and with his crew since Promises gives you very consistent performances for no real investment and he has very few suit requirements. I'd argue even with those three Riflemen getting three extra shots, McCabe is still doing just as much if not more work with his activation and non-activation related buffs.  Playing the two masters a fair bit, I'd say McCabe is better at doing what Lucius tries to do and doesn't completely fall apart late game when the minions or resources could be running thin, but that's just been my experience trying and failing to like Lucius as a master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Lucius also happens to be more durable than McCabe and he has some very useful scheme marker interactions. The two masters can play very similar lists but I don't see one being clearly better than another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Aside from getting a lucky draw (10+ of masks or rams) and getting a marker down with Hidden Sniper I've never been able to get Lucius' scheme marker tricks to play out. Legalese can potentially stop breakthrough/protect territory but Lucius is usually busy completing those schemes himself. As for durability? Highest Authority helps a lot, but I'm not sure that it helps as much as 6 extra wounds and twice as much movement. I should say, I love Lucius. I also feel like he's outclassed by basically every other master in the game and winning with him requires pretty much flawless play on your part, a few mistakes on your opponent's part, and no unusually bad draws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Secret Service, Loop Holes, Governor's Authority and ability to get extra soul stones also play a part in helping Lucius survive, and since when does McCabe have 16 wounds? McCabe might have better walk and charge values, but it is actually Lucius that moves around more usually, because his walk actions have such a nice added benefit of letting friendly minions take extra actions.The fact that you can't get much out of Lucius' scheme marker interactions might be a L2P issue. Your opponent is able to punish you easily if you make stupid mistakes, but same can be said for many other very good masters like Colette and Dreamer. I also find that Lucius is less reliant on good draws than most masters, because his actions have relatively low TNs and he can defend himself quite effectively without having any high cards in your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well, he is comparable to Dita in his survivability, if not more, and I have never heard anyone complain that she is too fragile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'm sorry, didn't have his card in front of me. Only 13 wounds, but the two damage tracks effectively do add some level of durability. Lucius needs the right suit on every single one of his actions to function. The numbers aren't a big deal, in fact his perfect hand is 7-8 of rams and a 7 of books/masks and for every one of those cards you don't pull you need to burn a stone for his actions to be efficient - burning a high card on issue command to get the right suit is a good way to guarantee that your models who actually interact with the enemy will miss. Devil's Deal drops basically any Guild minion to within 1 weak damage hit of death, so it's a nice ability but it's really a desperation move. I have never successfully run Lucius with less than 6-7 stones. Inspiring Presence is nice, but I've only ever found it to be a decent bonus, or a way to twist one last AP out of one of the models that matters. If I have the 8 of anything but crows in hand I'm much more likely to use it to Issue Command, and if I don't have the card in hand... Well maybe I've got lousy luck, but I always fail that horror duel, even with a Sergeant or Lawyer on hand. Lastly, is Lucius fragile? In the same way that Molly is fragile maybe. His primary defense and his ability to accomplish anything both drain your hand, so he's durable before he activates - but then his activation won't do much, relatively fragile after he activates. Unlike Perdita he doesn't have any way to punish models for attacking him, and the difference between df 6 and 7 is huge. Again, I don't think Lucius is bad but I do think that he operates under a lot of arbitrary limitations and suit requirements that simply aren't necessary from a balance perspective. I would be over the moon if I could top-deck his personal actions without always burning a stone first. I love his look, I love his style, and I love the way he's supposed to run but getting his abilities to go off is like pulling teeth compared to McCabe, McMourning, or Colette all of whom seem to support their crews better than he does, and accomplish more on their own activations. And as for learning to play? I have, I've reached for Lucius in pretty much every circumstance and my win-loss ratio has dramatically improved over the months that I've rammed my head against this brick wall. It has made me very aware of his arbitrary limitations and obscene suit requirements, and it has meant that I can proxy in pretty much any other master in the game and just have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastershake Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Secret Service, Loop Holes, Governor's Authority and ability to get extra soul stones also play a part in helping Lucius survive, and since when does McCabe have 16 wounds? McCabe might have better walk and charge values, but it is actually Lucius that moves around more usually, because his walk actions have such a nice added benefit of letting friendly minions take extra actions. The fact that you can't get much out of Lucius' scheme marker interactions might be a L2P issue. Your opponent is able to punish you easily if you make stupid mistakes, but same can be said for many other very good masters like Colette and Dreamer. I also find that Lucius is less reliant on good draws than most masters, because his actions have relatively low TNs and he can defend himself quite effectively without having any high cards in your hand.  I'm going to be blunt, McCabe has been much harder for people to kill than Lucius. McCabe can usually hit Df7 Wp6, has the Dismount so some damage usually gets wasted (and if the target is in melee he can usually dismount out of their melee range) and easily get armor 1 or built in healing. As much as I like Governor's Authority, it just makes Lucius' problems even worse i.e. now you're losing even more cards and if you do luck into a good draw you don't want to use it. Secret Service also never happens, let's face it, it's a double suited Df trigger and neither are built in and at the end of the day all you're doing is moving the damage to a minion...on a master who literally does nothing if all his minions are gone. I appreciate the intent and story behind passing off the wounds, but it's back @$$wards to have Lucius pawning damage to the models who he needs to be effective.  "Haha, I've suckered you into killing all of my minions, now I'll punish you by hitting you with my cane and doing nothing else whatsoever...why am I doing this again?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Secret service isn't a Df trigger you will find useful in every game, but it can be used to pretty much neutralize attacks such as Expunge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastershake Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Secret service isn't a Df trigger you will find useful in every game, but it can be used to pretty much neutralize attacks such as Expunge. Â I would love it if McMourning Expunged Lucius, instead all he does is Expunge everything else until Lucius is surrounded by Flesh Constructs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Doesn't he get a stone back for passing damage on to minions anyway so as long as you've got the single suit the stone is effectively free (or is that a different ability?)? I've not played with Lucius but am looking forward to getting him and trying him out so the content of this thread is interesting to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Devil's deal is a different ability, it would be cool if that were a passive generation, but you use it to damage a model instead of spending a stone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Damn phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Admiral v- Is it possible that Lucius doesn't fit your play style? I have had a ton of success with him and at least in my local meta he is the master my opponents have asked me to stop using. I have rarely seen Lucius die. The only time he does is when I decide to use him to tar pit mid or late game, and then he doesn't get his melee trigger off. I rarely if ever use stones to prevent for him, saving them for cards or hidden sniper triggers. Lucius's greatest strength is his ability to, from a distance, allow you to choose an area to enhance as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Oh, I've had a good amount of success with him (and, caveat, I'm again not saying he's bad, there are no bad masters in this game, but he is probably bottom tier). I've also had success proxying in both McCabe and McMourning who do Lucius' job and their own. My problem with Lucius is that when I drop him on the table I'm constantly on edge because I need the right suits for everything that I do, I need my minions to stay alive or my master becomes slightly less useful than a Witchling Stalker, there isn't a single turn where Lucius isn't dictating exactly how I can use my hand from activation one. On the other hand, when I'm playing one of the Mc's (or even Sonnia, my secondary master) I can sit back and enjoy the game. Each of those masters is able to reliably contribute without draining my hand, cache, and board. McCabe projects his presence almost as well as Lucius, buffs his units, schemes better (Luna helps), and he's fast enough that while he dies every game it's because there was a turn that I wanted 8+ AP out of him. McMourning is a more versatile scheme enabler than Lucius (Injection letting a model drop a scheme marker out of activation, while engaged is killer) he buffs his units, he takes a hundred percent more resources to bring down and he can kill off whole swathes of models without limiting his supporting options. Heck, even Ulix is able to hand out more AP to better models with less of a struggle, plus summon (sort-of), heal, and buff his units. Though I've only seen him from the other side of the table so I'm biased. The only thing I miss when I don't take Lucius is his sense of style, and the last two turns of the game. My meta is full of new players, I take Lucius so that I don't wipe people off the board because that's rather unpleasant for both of us.  My two cents is that Lucius would feel competitive with other masters if he had the suits built in to his personal actions. Add the second ram to his (really mediocre right now) sword cane so that he can function perform some board control, and remove the ram requirement from hidden sniper so that he has a (0) action that you can top deck for. Then maybe your opponent has even a tiny reason to target him with any kind of offensive action ever (rather than just killing your super squishy Guardsmen) and you have a couple of meaningful actions you can take without spending a stone, card, or often both. I'm curious, what sort of cache do you run with? Do you use Dashel, because that's a great synergy for killing things (which, as I mentioned, is not why I reach for Lucius)? Do you reliably have a 7+ of masks, rams, and books in hand? Lucius is the most rage-quit avoiding master I've found in the whole game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've played Lucius with daschell. I think for killing it is effective, though I don't bring him against neverborn as they get into my riflemen to fast. I only bring 4 Stones and there are definitely times I don't have the suits I want, or even the mid cards to make his stuff go off at all. That is usually when I go with commanding presence on a warden or a model in the aura of a lawyer or sarge. Sometimes I will risk it for commanding presence anyways, depending on the low cost of the model to keep it from being too much of a waste. I will say I rarely see a rage quit against him as he doesn't feel like he is doing that much. But as the game goes on, the piece trade starts tipping more and more my way and my opponent finds they didn't make quite the progress they thought they would. He will never have a turn like McM or Even McCabe where he wows you with all he accomplished in one turn. He's a slow culmination of well planned pressure. That's part of why a bad hand isn't a disaster, because he's been making those incremental gains since turn one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I agree with everything you said, except that in my experience the incremental gains you make can be easily wiped out in one "Big Turn." I've gotten much better at avoiding them, but when I start to lose activation control things snowball really fast. If Lucius himself offered your opponent any really compelling reason to not target your minions he could make a stand in the late game, but generally if things go south he simply doesn't have anything to back up his durability. I love Lucius, I enjoy playing him, and I think he gives really good games. He does put you in the position of fighting against his card to get him to do things rather than using his card directly against your opponent. While that does make him one of the most consistent masters in the game I wouldn't say that it places him consistently ahead of any other of the other masters in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Do you find you are losing lots of minions in the big turn? My experience is that, except for against deathballs, using lots of minions prevents the damage from becoming overwhelming. The lack of keystone models keeps the big turn away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Back to the main topic, I tried hidden weapons today. I used my sarge to toss markers in, and accompliced Lucius to lead to a pretty devastating turn. I'm not sure I love it, because his low melee damage made the effect kind of disappointing (facing armor is a real problem for him) but the trigger really messed people up, depleting the effect of von schill and hannah. Double negs are amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Side-backtrack - I find one big turn from my common opponents (Rasputina, Von Schill, Wong, or even Mei Feng) can shred my minions even if they're at the extreme edge of their mutual support bubbles, and in cover. DF 4 and 5 WDs is pretty much a death sentence if someone draws a bead on you. I do think I need to start looking at Issue Command as a secondary ability for a few games and see how much I can do just by walking and using That's What Lackey's Are For. Â Back on topic - I had an opportunity to use Hidden Weapons today, long story short it cost me 2 VP. I just think it may be the sort of thing that is never optimal, even if it is sometimes fun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's what lackeys are for and commanding presence are the center of my first turn tactics. I rarely play against those masters which may account for out different experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arli Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 I can attest to how aggravating Red Tape is. Â Today, it caused Hannah to do nothing with 3 actions and Von Schill to do nothing for 3 actions. Â It was a huge pain in the a$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertmac Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 Anybody else using papa loco and thats what lackeys are for much? I used it today to kill both viks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 I haven't but I like it. How did you get papa activated before they moved away/murdered him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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