Is Brewmaster an NPE?

[Hateful Darkblack]

The problem that I see with brewmaster is that once you know his trick then he can be laughably easy to handle. Condition cleanse, range, friendly pushes all neuter brewmaster. The issue is that unless you bring these things which you wouldn't normally when just hearing a faction declared. So the game becomes did I bring the rock or the scissors to the paper fight? 

 

I think you've nailed it there, and I kinda see that as a problem. If you have to bring an anti-Brewmaster Crew to win, you're not really bringing your own Crew as much.

 

I'd be a little sad if you just had to hire Johan, a Performer, and two of your faction's snipers every time you're playing against Gremlins, just in case your opponent hires Brewmaster.

 

That Emberling was brutal! He took down the Whiskey Golem fast! And left Scrap everywhere! Nice work with that.

[LunarSol]

I'd be a little sad if you just had to hire Johan, a Performer, and two of your faction's snipers every time you're playing against Gremlins, just in case your opponent hires Brewmaster.

 

I do wonder if as the game expands there's a need to declare a subset of masters after declaring faction.  There's already enough diversity to where Faction is a pretty limited amount of information to build from.  I think announcing Master is probably too much information, but there's probably a number between 1-7 that's ideal.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I am still very new to Brewmaster, but I suspect that a lot of it is surprise factor. Once you know how the trap works, you can just start shooting the right models before they can grab you.

 

But I don't know!

[Patzer]

I am still very new to Brewmaster, but I suspect that a lot of it is surprise factor. Once you know how the trap works, you can just start shooting the right models before they can grab you.

 

But I don't know!

 

You are on to something. Killing Wesley before going after the Brewmaster, then either get that bastard by charging in or shoot him to death, that is.

[zFiend]

shoot him to death, that is.

 

Leveticus?

[Omenbringer]

I think the big issue here is that players really cant afford to ignore the Brew Master and his crew and instead focus on completing objectives to win. This is exacerbated by the shorter guarantied game length, limited Strat/ Scheme pools and emphasis on Scheme counters in M2e's "Standard play" format. These additional factors force "purpose building" a crew that usually isn't as fun to play, especially for newer players that tend to have more restrictive model pools to draw from. I for one hate feeling like I have to go out of faction to deal with a specific threat since it kills the "Character Driven" part of the game for me.

 

Having to purpose build a crew to deal with a specific opponents list (not Strats/ Schemes) also makes me feel like I am playing "Rock- Paper-Scissors" instead of Malifaux.

[rgarbonzo]

You are on to something. Killing Wesley before going after the Brewmaster, then either get that bastard by charging in or shoot him to death, that is.

A charge won't help you if there is a Drinking Contest aura up.

[Math Mathonwy]

I still don't understand how Brewie is supposed to be worse than Collodi (steals your AP and drowns you in annoying models) or the Viks (kills all of you dead) or Sonnia (kills you into Witchlings) or Ophelia (kills you really, really dead) or Dreamer (summons stuff that gambles you dead) or McMourning (kills you really, really into Flesh Constructs).

The fact that he leaves you alive makes you believe that you can still achieve something and that causes NPE?

 

Well if you ever get over here on your longboat or however you crazy Finish like to travel these days I'll happily take on your McMourning again *shudders*

We mostly use polar bears as transport. Here's a pic of ZFiend going to the gym (back when he had a moustache and smaller muscles):

https://31.media.tumblr.com/6721f7eb5debd586ae89d392e539a799/tumblr_ng88agqMFC1sjpc07o7_1280.jpg

[Patzer]

A charge won't help you if there is a Drinking Contest aura up.

 

A charge won't help you if there is a Drinking Contest aura up.

Nope, but it isn't always up!

 

Leveticus?

Who else? ^^

[Bodiless]

I still don't understand how Brewie is supposed to be worse than Collodi (steals your AP and drowns you in annoying models) or the Viks (kills all of you dead) or Sonnia (kills you into Witchlings) or Ophelia (kills you really, really dead) or Dreamer (summons stuff that gambles you dead) or McMourning (kills you really, really into Flesh Constructs).

The fact that he leaves you alive makes you believe that you can still achieve something and that causes NPE?

 

 

I'll take a stab at the psychology of this. First off, I agree that this is odd on the face of it. A dead model is absolutely not doing anything for the rest of the game, while a model stuck in a tarpit might. But somehow having all of your models tarpitted is potentially even more frustrating than having them all killed. 

 

I think it really does come down to having a model that is still in the game and yet incapable of doing anything. A dead model might be frustrating when it happens, but then you set it off to the side and continue play. Anyone who has played just about any kind of game is familiar with the idea of losing pieces, and you accept that pieces go out of play and you don't get to use them anymore. But a piece that is still in the game but one you don't actually get to use is practically taunting you.

 

Edit: I'll also add that if all of your models are dead, the game is probably over and you can go on to do something else. But if they are all stuck in a never-ending drinking session, your models might as well be dead but you still have to play somehow. That would rapidly become not a good time. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

In answer to your question, yes, leaving models alive but unable to do anything is often more frustrating to players than killing their models. Partly its the psychological aspect. Players come into the game expecting to remove and have their models removed from the game. Having your model be in the game, still alive, but effectively out of the game is infinitely more frustrating than just having the model die outright. In tandem with expectations its also frustrating because it "feels" like the opponent is toying with you. That they have the game so wrapped up they don't even need to do the expected actions or even try to interact with you. They will somewhat passively lock down your models, giving you no chance to do anything about it, and in essence force you to stop playing the game, but be unable to leave it or start again. You get to sit at the table watching your models be unable to do anything, and consistently make flips you can't win, or have very little chance of winning, and that encompasses the actions of your most important models. Wow that's fun.

 

Additionally, at least in my experience, it's very difficult to balance control. Because you aren't actually removing all their options permanently, as occurs when you kill something, the downsides associated with it tend to be more minimized, which leads to the biggest problem with control based rules in games I find. If the control isn't reliable and useful no one uses it. The instant it is reliable and useful it tends to steamroll into a situation where anyone playing against is has very little fun. I remember playing magic and while I never liked losing, I HATED losing to blue more than anything else because it felt like you didn't get to play the game. Your creatures and spells would be countered or locked down and you got to sit at the table, praying, often in vain, that THIS time you would be able to actually do something, while the opponent plinked you to death with things that would never even matter if you were able to actually interact with them.

 

It's not for nothing that in DnD one of the most hated spells used against players were hold and fear spells. Taking away control of your character removes the interaction that are  big draw for why many players play games. Yes, killing something in most games is worse, ultimately, but because that end state is so final the ways to carry it out tend to be better balanced. No one would allow a mechanic that allows almost constant killing with no downsides, somewhere, in their design unless they have no pretensions to balance. The problem is with control, the downside is often they aren't really good at killing, which they don't need to be if they can just reliably remove your models from consideration.

 

For myself I have no current knowledge of how much of an NPE the current iteration of the Brewmaster is. I will say that during the beta the absolute most unfun games of Malifaux I've ever had were testing games against the Brewmaster. This remained the case until I hit the current version of Collodi. In both cases I'm not necessarily commenting on my ability or inability to win the game, but those two masters are those that made the game feel like I'd rather be in the dentist's office getting a root canal than spending time playing against them. Collodi is one, outside of tournament play, I now would need a good reason to actually not forfeit on turn one the instant he was revealed and then ask if my opponent would play something else.

 

As for the Brewmaster, I'll reserve judgement until I actually get a game in against the current version.

[D6Damager]

You are on to something. Killing Wesley before going after the Brewmaster, then either get that bastard by charging in or shoot him to death, that is.

 

Taking a bunch of shooting vs. any gremlin master is probably pretty solid. The faction doesn't really have a lot of defenses around it or armor.  I think Brewmaster and Ulix would be very susceptible to blast damage (+cracker jack timing just to be sure) since a lot of their crew hangs close together for synergy reasons. Unless you can one-shot Zoraida I don't see why you would ever want to get closer to her. etc. 

[Bodiless]

If the Brewie players suspects they are going to be facing a blasting crew though, they can alway bring in Merris LaCroix. 
 
I've only played against Brewie once, and personally I am looking forward to the rematch because I enjoy the puzzle-solving aspect of dealing with a tricky opposing crew. But I will throw in this comment from one of our local henchmen on what Brewie is like.
 
Brewmaster, even more than Pandora or any other master in M2E, is the ultimate blue-deck. Playing him is saying "I may not win, but by god neither of us is going to have fun this game"

[Patzer]

For myself I have no current knowledge of how much of an NPE the current iteration of the Brewmaster is. I will say that during the beta the absolute most unfun games of Malifaux I've ever had were testing games against the Brewmaster. This remained the case until I hit the current version of Collodi. In both cases I'm not necessarily commenting on my ability or inability to win the game, but those two masters are those that made the game feel like I'd rather be in the dentist's office getting a root canal than spending time playing against them. Collodi is one, outside of tournament play, I now would need a good reason to actually not forfeit on turn one the instant he was revealed and then ask if my opponent would play something else.

 

As for the Brewmaster, I'll reserve judgement until I actually get a game in against the current version.

Beta Brewmaster and the current Brewmaster are on the string of Pandora 1.5 and Pandora 2.0

 

Why do you feel Collodi is such a pain to face, and what didn't you like with Beta-Brewy?

[Patzer]

If the Brewie players suspects they are going to be facing a blasting crew though, they can alway bring in Merris LaCroix. 

 

I've only played against Brewie once, and personally I am looking forward to the rematch because I enjoy the puzzle-solving aspect of dealing with a tricky opposing crew. But I will throw in this comment from one of our local henchmen on what Brewie is like.

 

Brewmaster, even more than Pandora or any other master in M2E, is the ultimate blue-deck. Playing him is saying "I may not win, but by god neither of us is going to have fun this game"

Then the order of target is 1) Merris/Wesley 2) Brewmaster.

 

That description of Brewie (and Pandora) is a massive hyperbole, in my opinion.

[Bodiless]

I wouldn't agree with it either based on my extremely limited experience with Brewie, but from what has been posted here I suspect it sums up the play experience for a number of people. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

It was during the testing phase of the brewmaster, so commenting on specifics I didn't like make no sense in the current iteration.

Discussing Collodi I best feel should be done in a different thread.

As I said Ill reserve judgement on current Brewmaster until I get a game in.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm hoping that maybe there's a quick speech I can give to other players beforehand that will make it a better game.

 

If it's just surprise, maybe I can say "Hey, so Brewmaster generally drags you into the aura and puts you at -4 Wp and negative flips and you can't get out, so use ranged, avoid Poison, and pull models out of that tarpit."

 

Last night was my first game so I was surprised I managed to make it work.

[rgarbonzo]

Taking a bunch of shooting vs. any gremlin master is probably pretty solid. The faction doesn't really have a lot of defenses around it or armor.  I think Brewmaster and Ulix would be very susceptible to blast damage (+cracker jack timing just to be sure) since a lot of their crew hangs close together for synergy reasons. Unless you can one-shot Zoraida I don't see why you would ever want to get closer to her. etc. 

Taking shooting vs a ranged faction is probably solid. They may not have a lot of defenses for it but they will shoot back. 

 

 

Brewmaster, even more than Pandora or any other master in M2E, is the ultimate blue-deck. Playing him is saying "I may not win, but by god neither of us is going to have fun this game"

Brewmaster is Blue deck and can be very frustrating to face, but he can be beaten without any "purpose built" crews. 

[Omenbringer]

That -4 to Wp is a pretty hefty negative to overcome, even for models that are above average.

[rgarbonzo]

It can be difficult but it can be overcome. You need a anywhere from a 5-11 to pass the Drinking Contest aura or you need to win initiative and activate before Brewmaster can put it up. Remember that Brewmaster is Ht 2 and Wesley is Ht 1. Therefore you have to have LoS to Wesley in order for his negative aura to be counted, also you have to have LoS to Brewie himself to be forced to test. 40-50mm bases are great for blocking the aura and allowing you to act normally.

[zFiend]

That -4 to Wp is a pretty hefty negative to overcome, even for models that are above average.

Well even the higher ones with wp 7 will fail a tonne of duels.

[moxypoo]

I’ll preface this post with saying that I haven’t played against the Brewmaster since he was finalized, but I did play with/against him a few times very late in the beta.  I would not consider those games to be NPEs, though I can see how some people would see them as such.

 

Back when I played Magic, I was a big combo/control player, because I found a lot of enjoyment in locking my opponent down and then instantly winning.  My opponents didn’t always find this fun, however.   I have a similar mentality when playing Malifaux and other skirmish/wargames.  Most of my enjoyment comes from trying to out-think and outplay my opponent, so I view playing aginst difficult control masters as an interesting challenge to overcome rather than an NPE.  

 

My favorite thing about Malifaux is that how you play matters more than what you play.  Every master can be overcome; you just have to outplay or out-think your opponent.  The moral of this story is that NPE is completely subjective – I would be disappointed if masters like the Brewmaster didn’t exist. 

 

TL;DR: I never found the Brewmaster to be an NPE, because I like the challenge of playing against unorthodox masters.

[MasterDisaster]

I’ll preface this post with saying that I haven’t played against the Brewmaster since he was finalized, but I did play with/against him a few times very late in the beta.  I would not consider those games to be NPEs, though I can see how some people would see them as such.

 

I think this is were the problem may originate. What some people consider an NPE others do not, it's purely down to opinion. I haven't really read up much on the ol' Brewmaster but from what I hear he sounds fairly unpleasant.

 

To be fair though pretty much every Master is unpleasant in some way shape or form. Personally I despise Seamus and he always gives me a NPE, every damn time. I utterly hate him and nowadays I often avoid playing against him because he gets to me. This is all down to one negative experience against him. I know zFiend hates the Viks almost as much as I hate Seamus and they gave him an NPE and he's in a similar boat to me. He's not fond of them and really doesn't like playing against them, I like playing against the Viks but it's personal opinion. Strangely I know McMourning is just as bad, he gave me my worst NPE ever but I'd still rather play against him than Seamus. 

 

I'd be prepared to give Brewie a go one day. Hopefully he wont be as horrific as Seamus. I don't think that's possible! 

[Duront]

The difference between brewmaster and other hard to play against masters like the ones mentioned previously, is that if brewmaster is played correctly and gets off his attacks and combos, both players are stuck in the same do nothing loop. So its not a one-sided only the loser is not having fun, no one wins with brewmaster.

 

and the only way to win, is to not play.