Jack Daw query

[Whut]

So I really like the idea behind Jack Daw. The Cursed upgrades are really cool and the movement tricks are useful too. However, I can't even begin to think of how to play him well, and after looking a little closer it seems like he and his crew just... fail on a couple levels.

 

1) Cards, or lack thereof. MANY things require a high card. On Jack Daw: Driven by Injustice for 7, Feel their Torment for 8, Twist and Turn for 7. Guilty: Share Guilt for 6, Follow Pain for 7. On Montresor: Fearful Whispers for 7. If you want Ama No Zako, his stuff requires 6,7,8. Motresor isn't the tankiest model, but likes being in the thick of it. That's going to take some cards to make him live. Add on that Jack Daw (as far as I can tell) doesn't have any card draw, and this seems like a bad combination.

 

2) Like I mentioned before, his models are not the tankiest. Without living foes, Montresor is pretty fragile. Actually, even if against living foes, its not THAT much help. The Drowned are very tanky in close combat, but if shot from far away their 6 wounds will not last very long, at all. The biggest tactic I see being used is to make a big blob and debuff your enemies, forcing them to take periodic damage using Curses, Jaakuna, or Amo no Zako. If you don't have a frontline that can sit there forever (Think Flesh Constructs), then what's the point...?

 

How and when do the synergies REALLY come into play? Is there any way to run a non-tormented list with Jack Daw, focusing more on a tanky, hard hitting frontline and debuffing? What is the best way to play him?

[Uktena]

6, 7, and 8 aren't really high cards. Being able to get an ability to go off on a midcard is pretty normal.

[Whut]

Well not high cards, what I mean is that you won't be getting a hand full of 7's and (8+)'s to constantly ensure these abilities can always go off. 

 

For example, I play Nicodem, and when I draw a 4 that's kinda okay because that's the minimum I need to make a model fast, or to use a belle lure on one of my own models with a relent. On the other hand, a necropunk needs a 7 to leap and I don't always have that 75%+ through the turn.

[Uktena]

Gotcha. Your opinion is what it is, but my reply would still be to resist the urge to assume that abilities with a lower chance to activate than a Rotten Belles lure are failures of design. The Jack crew is fast and makes a solid mix of denial and pushing. I feel like they operate very evenly when compared to other Outcast crews.

[Whut]

Okay, good stuff. So how does one tend to run them? Have you ever felt that your supposed frontline models are too fragile?

I'm feeling like he is probably best in Turf war because of the ability to deny movement, push, and punish for being close by

[Rathnard]

At least in my experience Jack Daw isn't any more demanding on your hand than most other Masters. Alot of his spells require a moderate card to get off but that's pretty normal, and his demand for specific suits is pretty average (ie. you want them for some triggers, but he's not begging for them like a summoner tends to). His traditional crew has an above-average Df and his ability to force negative flips reduces your need to cheat high cards to keep your crew alive too.

 

I see Jack Daw's strengths as boiling down to three main points;

1. Neutralising your opponents best models

2. Stripping your opponents hand

3. Staying mobile

 

The first is mostly about applying Jacks Cursed upgrades to your opponents models, which forces them to either take damage when they want to do something or waste 2AP and their activation flipping the Curse. But you also can't forget some of the other tricks from Jacks crew, like Monty's Paralyse trigger, Guilty applying Tormented (which does multiple things, depending on who your talking about), Lady Ligela's no cheating aura and especially taking the Nurse to do what she does best.

 

Jacks crew is also loaded with effects to make your opponent discard cards and pass lots of duels. Individually they might not all seem like much, but altogether it puts alot of pressure on your opponents hand, forcing them to make hard decisions about whether to cheat/discard or deal with the consequence of not (eg. damage, becoming Tormented, push effects, paralyse, etc etc). It makes it harder for your opponent to keep cards for what they want to do, which reduces the effectiveness of their crew relative to yours. 

 

Finally, Jack and his Tormented have ALOT of movement effects. The Writing Torment upgrade is my favorite, but Monty has both a pulse and trigger to push enemy models into base contact, the Guilty can push toward other Tormented and the Drowned with Jakunna have a great array of movement effects too. I've actually found that the array of options this can give you in-game can actually get overwhelming. It's certainly something that takes some practice to fully utilise! 

 

As for how I run Jack's crew, I've had no problem with fragility from the Guilty, and in fact I've rarely played a game with less than 2. Monty does need to be used cautiously though - he's worth his cost but he's not made for going toe to toe with equally costed heavy hitters (that's where the crews neutralisation tricks come in). The crew is often more about disruption than raw damage though, so adding a few heavy hitters (shooting or melee) certainly helps.

[Kogan Style]

The Outcast answer is always Lazarus.

Make him tormented, then blast the opponent to Kingdom come. I always take a Librarian to get the healing and also the Null aura, when you make her tormented and have the creeping terror upgrade in the crew, that 5" aura can be really mean, especially if a beatstick with inbuilt triggers come knocking on Monty's door (although most times I prefer Ama over Monty)

[Adran]

Personally I find abilities that need 7s or 8s to go off as fairly relaiable. I pobably only need to cheat half of them, and I expect a couple of mid range cards in hand.

 

 

I've play Jack a few times and had a lot of fun and sucess with him, but I can't really work out how. I  didn't really build a "classic" jack daw list, basign them on a couple of Guilty to make the models I selected Tormented, and thn just what I wanted. Alyce worked really well. especially in conjunction with a tormentd desolation engine. (8 AP from 1 model in 1 turn is pretty good. Especially if you can also gain movement through pushes) (9AP is possible if you really really go for it. And then it has a decent chanceof making enough abominations to get a new one...)

 

I'm guessing what he really works on is hand attrition. a lot of his things force the opponents to use cards. and the more card they go through, the more likley they are to fail.

Which is part of the reason I went for abominations and the desolation engine, more tests. More chances for my opponent to fail.

[moxypoo]

I've only played Jack a handful of times, so I'm barely scratching the surface of what he can do.  My experience suggests that his crew is all about presenting your opponent very few choices, all of which are bad.  That seems to be why his crew isn't "tanky" - you debuff the enemy crew or paralyze them or move them into bad positions so that they can't actually do much to your models.  Combined with all the actions Jack's crew performs that makes the opponent discard cards, you can really lock down some enemy models. 

 

Once, I managed to drag a bunch of models into b2b with Montressor while keeping Lady Liega close but out of range of any melee attacks.  That combo locked down about half of the enemy crew for 3 full turns.

 

Also, requiring a 7 to hit a TN means that you'll flip the required number 50% of them time assuming your deck is perfectly randomized. 

 

 

Alyce worked really well. especially in conjunction with a tormentd desolation engine. (8 AP from 1 model in 1 turn is pretty good. Especially if you can also gain movement through pushes) (9AP is possible if you really really go for it. And then it has a decent chanceof making enough abominations to get a new one...)

 

I'm guessing what he really works on is hand attrition. a lot of his things force the opponents to use cards. and the more card they go through, the more likley they are to fail.

Which is part of the reason I went for abominations and the desolation engine, more tests. More chances for my opponent to fail.

 

This combo sounds like a lot of fun and should synergize well with making the opponent discard cards.  Definitely have to try this out sometime.

[JSKrush]

Also consider how Nurses pair with a lot of his crew.  They are usually reliably neutralizing your opponent in addition to his cursed upgrades or augmenting your own models when needed.  Ama, Papa, or Montressor with the right nurse 'buffs' on them in the proper moments of the game go a long way.

 

Another funny thing which I've noticed and didn't expect is how ruthless Jack is in melee.  With his trigger to place to a target after shooting or charge a long way through things from us incorporeal-ish ability and 2"   he comes in from a long distance way.  His Sh7 and Ca7 with a built in   really help him win more often than not in duels.

 

For example, charge with Jack late in a turn when the opponent has spent a few big cards, win a duel to put Firing Squad Injustice on your target.  DMG is 2 min.  Next attack win and do at least DMG 2 min again, + 1 DMG from the curse, and then use the trigger to pull it off for +2 DMG more.  That's 7 DMG so far.  If it's still alive, hit again with at least 2 DMG min again, drop Drowning Injustice on the target, and then target it with Twist & Turn if it's a non-leader to take a tactical action (like a walk) for another potential 2 DMG.  That's a bunch of DMG output in a single activation and even with a lot of tactical choices depending on what you are going up against or trying to accomplish.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Rathnard and others have given a good description of Daw. I'd just like to add that Daw is very capable regardless of the strategy and is more capable than most masters of being played in alternative fashions. You can run a fast Daw crew focused on scheme markers and disruption or you can run an elite Daw crew focused on killing and control, for example. Daw never feels gimped and to me, it seems like the more you play him the less you want to play other masters - the speed is that good and you never feel at a disadvantage so long as you hire appropriately.

Daw can do most anything and doesn't need a ridiculously large hiring pool to accomplish it.

[Whut]

Thanks for all the replies! So what would that hiring process look like? My style really fits "impenetrable wall" or reactionary play where I take lots of tanky models and use those combined with some heavy hitting to slowly bully my opponent away through attrition (Currently play ressers, and I almost always take two or three beefy models). Taking someone like Montressor doesn't really fit that style, and although I am willing to adapt I still want a rundown of how JA runs his crew. I was thinking Ama no Zako + Lazarus could be used as a similar sort of frontline while JD flies around the flanks (or maybe flies in-and out) making my enemy's expensive models really annoying to use, but I hear many good things about various slingshots and other tricks (especially with Papa Loco) and maybe going for a trick like that can be useful. I'm not really sure right now.

[Spindle]

I think Lazarus would fit in perfectly with your playstyle, he can soak up the punishment pretty well with his defensive stats and his self-heal is invaluable. Someone mentioned Rusty Alyce earlier in the thread which is a model that I think he would synergise excellently with if you can afford the hefty soulstone cost of both.

And besides, who DOESN'T love raining down grenade-y death on their foes.

[JSKrush]

Not trying to dissuade you from playing Daw but if you looking for the style of play you mentioned, you may want to look at other Outcast masters rather than just fit tanky models into a Daw crew.  You can build it that way to include them but you may also be loosing a lot of the aspects which Daw and other synergistic models are designed around.  May I suggest Levi or VonShill?  They may play closer to the experience you are looking for or comfortable with at this time.

 

Otherwise I've been experimenting with the idea of running both Hannah and Ama as the hitters of a Daw crew at 50SS.

 

Remember that Guilty can always give Tormented to your non-Tormented models to allow them interesting interactions with Daw's abilities and upgrades.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Jack Daw's models get a lot tankier when Ligeia is around and enemies can't cheat.

 

I think you're right, OP, that a lot of Jack Daw's abilities require medium-to-high cards. You can't rely on those all the time! Pick and choose when you use them.

 

However, Jack Daw himself has a really high attack with a lot of tricks. And many of his movement tricks require no cards or few cards. The Drowned and Jaakuna form a tankball tarpit that's hard to kill or escape.

 

Montresor is fast and fragile and I think he works best as an anti-flanker or second-line fighter. He does best with support from other models. Alone he's a big target. When Ligeia and Jaakuna and some Drowned are nearby, the story changes to a much uglier one, at least for your opponent. He can't stand alone well, but he stacks to help control an area.

 

Jack Daw's movement tricks are solid gold. You should be able to get your Crew where you want them once you get used to them all.

 

That said, I still have a lot to learn about Jack Daw.

[Kadeton]

Jack Daw's models get a lot tankier when Ligeia is around and enemies can't cheat.

 

How long is Ligeia around? She seems like such an easy first target for ranged killers, then Montresaurus drops fast - I've only played a few games against Jack so I can't speak from much experience, but killing his friends doesn't seem very difficult, and he's a lot less scary alone.

[MasterDisaster]

If you want tough, durable beat sticks then the Outcast faction has probably some of the best. Lazarus, Strongarm Suit, Taelor, Bishop, Killjoy, Johan... there is a tonne of them. Jack Daw's crew can make them Tormented then send them off to murder stuff. Big scary models is never a problem within Outcasts. As for healing, somebody has probably mentioned it but the Freikorps Librarian is probably one of the most versatile healers in the game and as Jack Daw is an Outcast she can use her heal twice per turn. Definitely worth investing in one if you are having issues keeping stuff standing. 

[Hateful Darkblack]

How long is Ligeia around? She seems like such an easy first target for ranged killers, then Montresaurus drops fast - I've only played a few games against Jack so I can't speak from much experience, but killing his friends doesn't seem very difficult, and he's a lot less scary alone.

 

Ligeia can be super hard to kill for melee models. Easyish for ranged models but she still has a good Df. She really likes to stay in cover and behind buildings until then.

 

Montresor drops pretty quickly if you leave him alone, for sure.

[Rathnard]

How long is Ligeia around? She seems like such an easy first target for ranged killers, then Montresaurus drops fast - I've only played a few games against Jack so I can't speak from much experience, but killing his friends doesn't seem very difficult, and he's a lot less scary alone.

 

In my experience she's usually the first thing my opponent tries to kill and hence tends not to last long. In fact I don't think my Ligeia has ever seen the more than the first few activations of turn three. She pulls a disproportionate amount of the enemy's attention while she's alive though. Keeping her outside LoS initially and then making good use of defensive stance has been my usual approach with her. 

[The Zinc Lich]

If you want tough, durable beat sticks then the Outcast faction has probably some of the best. Lazarus, Strongarm Suit, Taelor, Bishop, Killjoy, Johan... there is a tonne of them. Jack Daw's crew can make them Tormented then send them off to murder stuff. Big scary models is never a problem within Outcasts. As for healing, somebody has probably mentioned it but the Freikorps Librarian is probably one of the most versatile healers in the game and as Jack Daw is an Outcast she can use her heal twice per turn. Definitely worth investing in one if you are having issues keeping stuff standing. 

 

Don't forget that a Nurse paired with Johan's Rebel Yell (or the FK Specialist's Move or Burn, if you have him around for some reason) is pretty much the best heal in the game. There's nothing quite as satisfying as healing 12 points of damage from your master for 2 ap.

 

It seems to me that Jack Daw just doesn't like guns. Nothing really wants to be in melee with his typical crew, but nothing has great defensive stats, so they fall to gunfire. Does he have any access to good anti-shooting tech? The Hodgepodge Effigy has the Fog action, which is good, but I don't know about everyone else. Its a shame that Sebastian isn't tormented; Under Cover or whatever it is called would be golden.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Cover is the universal anti-gun tech. Jack Daw really loves terrain, since it protects them from guns and doesn't slow down a lot of his Crew.

[Sezar]

Well used, Daw's Crew can really be faster than most would expect, so in my experience gunlines have never been an issue per-se.

Also, most of the usual Tormented models are Df 6, so they're Not the easiest targets anyway

[MasterDisaster]

Don't forget that a Nurse paired with Johan's Rebel Yell (or the FK Specialist's Move or Burn, if you have him around for some reason) is pretty much the best heal in the game. There's nothing quite as satisfying as healing 12 points of damage from your master for 2 ap.

 

I did forget about this, I've been tempted to try this out with Guild McMourning. Nurses and Stalkers = WIN! 

[moxypoo]

In my experience she's usually the first thing my opponent tries to kill and hence tends not to last long. In fact I don't think my Ligeia has ever seen the more than the first few activations of turn three. She pulls a disproportionate amount of the enemy's attention while she's alive though. Keeping her outside LoS initially and then making good use of defensive stance has been my usual approach with her. 

 

I've been playing Jack the last few weeks, and this is my experience too.  Liega is Priority #1 for my opponents.  Rathnard gives some good advice here - keep her out of LOS and/or in cover and make heavy use of defensive stance.

 

You can also use her as bait if you want to draw out an important enemy model.  I've had success running her right up to an enemy heavy hitter to lock it down, knowing that I'll lose her in the near future.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Ligeia is a great distraction and opponents put way to much effort into going after her.... the Montresor/Ligeia package plays a lot like a anchor/waif package with Levy cept Monty is a big ugly violent doxy instead.

I don't like Monty, honestly. Jaakuna is cheaper or build yourself up with nurse and the hanged.

Daw is one of those masters a lot of people haven't figured out (or maybe just haven't played much) but if you play him right he can deliver a Levy amount of shock and surprise from your opponent but through evasion and disruption... not "tanky."

Daw, much like Tara, can really benefit from a "ragtag elite" crew (but more complimentary to your base crew of tormented) and you should have the entire lineup of "typical" special choices to choose from. Start peeking into your opponents bag more

Have Taelor, Johan, Ama, trapper(s), Bishop, Sue, Hans, Killjoy, etc, etc. on hand for those special cases and you don't always have to tag one of your own mercs with tormented unless its really advantageous (Ama).

Like Von Schill, you can have a little bubble group with Daw and leftovers or another group doing something else... you don't have to just keep everything all together or in theme.

Monty needs too much support for what he is... some choices are "damn rights I want that in every crew!" and some are "well... maybe I can make it work" and those second choices are always suboptimal - too much catering. You put Ligeia, Monty, a hanged and a nurse in center field and its pretty impressive though, I guess.

More Ama and Sue.

Daw is pure disruption and more like an empty threat of terrible things rather than the terrible things themselves (Levy).