thebarbalag Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 September is almost over. Any word on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Not that I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 "...and what a wonderful world". F' avatars! I really hope that Wyrd comes to the very same conclusions. "Sorry everyone. They are indeed cool models, centrepieces really, but that mechanic worked better 1.5. We have upgrades and other cool stuff now. You should try those!". 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarbalag Posted September 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Somehow I doubt it, and haven't remotely come to that conclusion myself. Avatars, I think, fit much better into M2E than 1.5, and have the potential to add a lot to the game. They just need some work. I, and my gaming group, are ready to get to it. We already have plans for an Avatar testing league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrabbit37 Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 "...and what a wonderful world". F' avatars! I really hope that Wyrd comes to the very same conclusions. "Sorry everyone. They are indeed cool models, centrepieces really, but that mechanic worked better 1.5. We have upgrades and other cool stuff now. You should try those!". I approve of Ezyrder. Avatars... interesting concept that has never hit the mark mechanically. With the restrictions placed on the idea (must make a new model, must be different, must come about in game through actions of a player, and must not make the game into a 'race for Avatar' or a 'if you don't own one, you lose') it's not something that can really be done effectively. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I hope that Wyrd at some point abandons the idea that they have to be an ingame change to the master and just make them into separate versions of the master instead. Obviously it's a lot of work, but I think the outcome would be better. Then you are presented with two different version of your favourite master, and the avatar upgrade/mechanic doesn't have to compete with playing the game. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I hope they make them w/ the transformy stuff (because I think it's conceptually cool, and liked where the better ones were going), but make it more obvious how they'll be appearing: I have enough trouble with new/potential players over 3 objectives per side (2 of which can be concealed) being too much to keep track of ("surprise! I won"), so haven't really touched on avatars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 There are so many competing design ideas with the avatars that I truly believe you can't make them work within the confines placed on them. Personally I'd either like them to just be show pieces for us old times peeps that have them, or simply be a different upgrade style with no model attached. But I agree with Gorbad, if you wish to maintain them then they are different master entirely and balanced as such. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 They're such a cool concept, I'd hate to see them abandoned. They definitely need some serious work to really shine though. They have numerous challenges, not the least of which is the rather limited opportunity they have to function in the game under 5 turns and the fact they compete with what your master was already doing. They really need to be manifesting turn 2-3 to feel useful and the difference there is even rather dramatic. As the previous beta rolled on, I got the impression that a big wrench in the cogs was the manifest events themselves. To some degree I could see these becoming the primary draw of the upgrades, but I think to do so the manifestation requirements probably shouldn't have competing event options either by removing them or making them additional benefits to the event. I can also see it being beneficial to allow players to take 2 manifestation options or for each card to have a backup option of some kind along the lines of Desperate or Delayed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Wishing for anything different than what is in the rule book is going to have to be a wish list for M3E, as what is in the book is what we get. Personally my sentiments agree to some extent with what has been said. I've been enjoying the game without the Avatars and a part of me wishes we could just get rid of them, but we can't. Being that they have to be in the game the constraints, and the game length make them difficult to implement, although I prefer the current direction rather than doubling the amount of masters we have in the game. Personally I hope its a long time before even a single new master is added to the game, let alone doubling them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Justin Posted September 29, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I approve of Ezyrder. Avatars... interesting concept that has never hit the mark mechanically. With the restrictions placed on the idea (must make a new model, must be different, must come about in game through actions of a player, and must not make the game into a 'race for Avatar' or a 'if you don't own one, you lose') it's not something that can really be done effectively. I hope that Wyrd at some point abandons the idea that they have to be an ingame change to the master and just make them into separate versions of the master instead. Obviously it's a lot of work, but I think the outcome would be better. Then you are presented with two different version of your favourite master, and the avatar upgrade/mechanic doesn't have to compete with playing the game. There are so many competing design ideas with the avatars that I truly believe you can't make them work within the confines placed on them. Personally I'd either like them to just be show pieces for us old times peeps that have them, or simply be a different upgrade style with no model attached. But I agree with Gorbad, if you wish to maintain them then they are different master entirely and balanced as such. I think Rancor and wabbit hit on a lot of the issues with avatars, and those are the reasons the beta is delayed. Gorbad, they will not become separate masters. Overnight that would double the number of masters from 39 to 78. That would...not be good for game balance or friendly to new players. We have lots of diversity now. The avatar beta will be released exclusively to henchmen in November and then publicly in January. I am instituting some major changes which will, hopefully, address all issues. 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I am instituting some major changes which will, hopefully, address all issues. I may love you for that. I agree with others above....I just don't think they can work as it stands. I've been pretty down on them. I'm really hoping you've got something up your sleeve Mr. Gibbs. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalumps Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I am very interested in seeing what comes out of all this closed testing and tinkering with the Avatar rules. I look forward to January! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 We already have plans for an Avatar testing league. That actually sounds really cool! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I'm very interested as well. Thanks for the update Justin. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Wall Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I really think that avatars can work out really well with the upgrade mechanic in 2nd edition. Even if they were simply a limited upgrade that dramatically changed one aspect of the master, they would be a fun alternative. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twilightmikasa Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Ehh...kind of already knew since mid-September (bonus that Justin lives in my area) but I am looking forward to restarting the Avatar beta - I have the perfect model for Sonnia - a Marvel bobblehead of Phoenix (I could just stick her on a 50mm base). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Looking forward to see what you old geezers can come up with. In the meantime, I will thoroughly enjoy a play test free autumn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I think Rancor and wabbit hit on a lot of the issues with avatars, and those are the reasons the beta is delayed. Gorbad, they will not become separate masters. Overnight that would double the number of masters from 39 to 78. That would...not be good for game balance or friendly to new players. We have lots of diversity now. The avatar beta will be released exclusively to henchmen in November and then publicly in January. I am instituting some major changes which will, hopefully, address all issues. This is great to hear. Avatars have always been a feature that really helps Malifaux stand out from other skirmish games for me. Definitely something I'm glad to see given the time to be done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 The only other tough design constraint I would add to Wrabbit37's list is the shorter game length. That particular constraint effects a lot of things and makes the "balancing" even more difficult. Additionally, having made them upgrades, causes some "issues" with masters that already struggle with tough competing decisions in that area. These things can be worked out but a patient, methodical approach is best. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I'm very intrigued by the concept of an overhaul, but I just can't fathom where it could be taken at the moment frankly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uktena Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'm very intrigued by the concept of an overhaul, but I just can't fathom where it could be taken at the moment frankly. I'm with you, but I'm hopeful. Left to their own devices Wyrd design makes some crazy cool stuff. My bet is Avatar based scenarios where they can control how Avatars interact to gain VP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I would very much like to see avatars getting their own "game mode" rather than implementing them on the regular game. But still I am quite excited about the spoken drastic changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I am surprised to a degree, I certainly have not been an active supporter, but a decent number of avatars seemed almost "done" following the old restrictions. This does bring me to the question. Justin, are avatars still conditioned in their design by the points you posted in your blog or has some of that changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I am surprised to a degree, I certainly have not been an active supporter, but a decent number of avatars seemed almost "done" following the old restrictions. This does bring me to the question. Justin, are avatars still conditioned in their design by the points you posted in your blog or has some of that changed? That is true. I forgot about that. Some of them were considered close to done already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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