Yan Lo - Transcendence

[Boybucky]

So I asked this on AWP and got quite a mixed response, so thought i'd ask it here too.

Below is the ability this refers to:

Transcendence: This model may lower its Chi Condition value by any amount, to a minimum of 0. For each point of Chi lowered, one friendly model in p8 gains the Spirit Characteristic and the following Condition for the rest of the Turn: "Armor +2: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +2, to a minimum of 1."

My question is: Can Yan Lo lower his chi by 2 or 3 (or more) to give a model +4 or +6 armour (or more)?

[The Godlyness]

Well it gains a condition

 

Condtions stack if they have a +1

 

Armor +2 and then an additional Armor +2 would be +4

 

So lowering by what ever would definitely give the model armor +X

 

What reasoning is that they could not?

[Ausplosions]

Not in a single action.

Because otherwise it would read "up to # models gain armour +2 per chi spent".

[Sklertic]

The point of chi refers to the amount of models gaining the condition, not the condition itself, so no, you cannot.

[The Godlyness]

Wait wait wait.

I lower my chi by 2 let's say and choose model A. So then I choose model A. I have chose 1 friendly model per chi. And it's in the pulse. So now it gains armor +2 and armor +2. So since condtions with a + modifier stack that's armor +4.

No where in transcendence does it say I can't choose the same model. Just one model per chi. So I choose the same one twice. Which is 1 model per chi.

There is nothing stopping this.

Break it down further. First sentence says lower chi by any amount bam done lowered it by 2.

Next line for each chi lowered, 1 model gains armor+2. Yep no restriction saying has to be different models. Just that they are in the pulse.

But hey read it how you like.

[Ausplosions]

You lower the number of chi to select the number of models, not the number of applications.

[zFiend]

Somehow I read that so only one model may gain that and you could spend more to it, so you could pump one model with armor +6 or so if you wanted to.

[Bengt]

Yep no restriction saying has to be different models. Just that they are in the pulse.

The default for a  is that it hits each model once so I think the exception would have to go the other way, i.e. stating that you could hit the same model several times.

[Boybucky]

I disagree, the wording uses the term "one friendly model" in relation to the one point of chi lowered. So if I lower my chi by 10 then I could select one friendly model ten times to receive spirit and +2 armour. Nothing here says it can't be the same model ten times as long as I'm sticking to the regulations of one chi lowered = one "boost".

[Boybucky]

If we're going by the rules on pulses then this would mean ALL models in the pulse were effected once. So one chi gets everyone within 8" the condition...

[zFiend]

If we're going by the rules on pulses then this would mean ALL models in the pulse were effected once. So one chi gets everyone within 8" the condition...

Say what?

[Ausplosions]

Say what?

 

 

Tenuous link is tenuous. 

[Durza]

If we're going by the rules on pulses then this would mean ALL models in the pulse were effected once. So one chi gets everyone within 8" the condition...

 

Going to disagree, it says to lower by any amount, and for each point lowered one model gets the effect, the effect is you choose how much to lower and what models to give the condition. 

 

But it's a (1) action, so you could use it multiple times a turn to give out up to armour +6 at max. +8 if Yan Lo gets fast.

[Boybucky]

I don't believe that all models in the pulse are effected, I'm just saying that if we use the logic "the DEFAULT rule for pulses says X" then the DEFAULT rules for pulses also says it effects everything radiating out. In actual fact the rule for pulses doesn't mention at all any use of the word "once" in any context, merely that it effects everything at that moment.

I'm of the opinion that you can select one friendly model multiple times, but if I was 100% definitely sure I wouldn't have asked the question. It seems opinions are pretty divided so I'm obviously not the only person who may be playing it wrong.

[Cunning]

It could probably do with wording slightly better but I'd say that it means different models.  In the same way Shenlong's Mastery used to say any 2 of the 4 conditions but was ruled that you cant pick the same condition twice.  And was updated to reflect this

[Paddywhack]

I disagree, the wording uses the term "one friendly model" in relation to the one point of chi lowered. So if I lower my chi by 10 then I could select one friendly model ten times to receive spirit and +2 armour. Nothing here says it can't be the same model ten times as long as I'm sticking to the regulations of one chi lowered = one "boost".

Except it doens't say one 'boost' per Chi. It says one 'model' per chi. Its still a great abiilty.

[Boybucky]

Except it doens't say one 'boost' per Chi. It says one 'model' per chi. Its still a great abiilty.

Yep, couldn't agree more. I'm going to play it as a "no" unless I hear otherwise. I've only ever used it as one chi per model so I'm not losing anything, just curious if it gets re-worded. Thanks again to those who've taken the time to reply.

[DeleteAccount]

THREAODMANCY, OOOOOH!

 

OK, reading this debate it doesn't really seem to me that any consensus was reached. Anything new about this?

[Rhonlore]

The wording leads me to believe that for each chi, you choose a different model.

 

For each point of Chi lowered, one friend model in :pulse8 

 

Lower your chi value, pulse dictates which models may be affected, then you choose which ones are affected, up to the amount you lowered your Chi by.

[DocSchlock]

The pulse indicates what targets may be selected, nothing more.

"For each Chi lowered, one friendly model" -- has 0 restrictions on picking the same model twice, since a single friendly model will always be "one friendly model". It would need to explicitly state you need to chose different models or a model already targeted cannot be selected again like in the Airburst Action. Picking the same model twice would give them Armor +(2*X), where X is the number of times this model was chosen / Chi was spent.

There is no rule that pulses affect models within range any set number of times. This is not a rule. When a pulse occurs, the ability or action generating the pulse states how the models in the pulse are affected by the ability or action.

This isn't any worse than Rasputina putting Armor +6 on an Ice Golem.

[Adran]

The pulse indicates what targets may be selected, nothing more.

"For each Chi lowered, one friendly model" -- has 0 restrictions on picking the same model twice, since a single friendly model will always be "one friendly model". It would need to explicitly state you need to chose different models or a model already targeted cannot be selected again like in the Airburst Action. Picking the same model twice would give them Armor +(2*X), where X is the number of times this model was chosen / Chi was spent.

There is no rule that pulses affect models within range any set number of times. This is not a rule. When a pulse occurs, the ability or action generating the pulse states how the models in the pulse are affected by the ability or action.

This isn't any worse than Rasputina putting Armor +6 on an Ice Golem.

 

A pulse is an instant effect. The rulebook tells us that.

So it should all happen at the same time.

I can see that the rules don't actually clarify here, but it seems to me that it should be 1 chi - 1 model, 2 chi -2 models not  1 chi -1 model, 2 chi -1 model -1 model,

as the chi is all lowered at the same time.

 

If they wrote the rule " For each  Chi lowered then +1 friendly model, then it would end the debate.

But they haven't

[DocSchlock]

But it doesn't happen at the same time, because Malifaux doesn't support simultaneity like that (and the rules don't actually say anything regarding that at all in the description of a pulse). The active player picks which models to resolve in whatever order he / she likes and the resolutions aren't simultaneous. Look at Sidir's Pulse Walk Duel action for another example.

The pulse wording is there to be clear that a pulse doesn't last any in-game time. The pulse affects everything in its range when used, but unlike an aura, it doesn't stick around.

As written, there is nothing stopping Yan Lo from picking the same model for each Chi spent, regardless of how carefully people would like to read it. If this was not intended, it needs to be errata'd, but it's not very strong, and other Masters have similar tricks.

[solkan]

As written, there's nothing permitting you to select the same model multiple times while claiming that you've selected X models.

 

"I reduce my Chi value by two to select two models, that one over there."

 

We've been told to use normal English when in doubt, and that's nonsense in regular English.

[The Godlyness]

In that context yes but in this context 

 

"I reduce my chi value by 2 and select  two models  that one over there and that one over there" *pointing finger at the same model*

look it's the same model. Nothing is restricting choosing the same model more than once. I selected 2 models one for each chi.  If it had the word "different" this would not even have come up at all. So for it not to have that very very specific word. One can only postulate that you can choose the same model more than once. 

[mythicFOX]

If it said 'different' then it would mean you had to pick two different. The fact it doesn't say 'different' does not automatically mean you can pick the same model twice.

 

Again we need to be careful to not over reading things. You can clearly read this rule both ways. 

 

Personally I think the more common interpenetration of being asked to pick two things is picking two separate things not the same one twice.

[Dirial]

Personally I think the more common interpenetration of being asked to pick two things is picking two separate things not the same one twice.

 

Which also seems to be the intent, judging by Justin's "like" of Ausplosions' post above (#6).