Sonnia + LoS + Flame Walls

[zFiend]

So this came up in a game today:

Sonnia casts flame wall, does she have to have LoS where she is casting the wall prior to the walls? Or can she cast them anywhere on the table as long as she can draw LoS to the Ht5 wall itself?

[Dirial]

The action only mentions to place 2 markers in LoS, and that those markers are Ht 5. I would assume that the normal LoS rules apply, and thus that she doesn't need LoS to the place they touch the ground.

 

I never played it that way, but I see nothing in the rules that forbids this.

[Myyrä]

The action tells you to place the markers within 12" and LoS. I would argue that the markers are within LoS if Sonnia has LoS to them. Furhtermore the rules don't even tell how one should draw LoS to a point on the battlefield.

[dgraz]

Hmmm....personally I always just *assumed* that I needed LoS to the target point on the field where I wanted them (so you couldn't cast them on the opposite side of a  Ht 3 building).....but you're right that there is nothing (that I can think of) that would forbid this.

 

I would think that this might be a case of *gaming* the rules (no offense to anyone).......looking at it logically.....if you can't see the point that you want this magical fire to spring from.....the anchor point if you will....then how could you do it? I just can't wrap my mind around the 'fluff' aspect of 'I'm building a wall, but I'm starting it 10' up in the air and building down.'

[zFiend]

That is how I have played it, that you need LoS where you want them and somehow assumed it was logical in a game where everything needs LoS to happen.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That's how I've ruled it in the past.

[HowNot2Wargame]

If you can't see the point in the first place, then how can you place the markers? If you cannot place them, then how can they become ht 5?

I would argue you need to see the ground.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I'd play it the same as above. It's not hight 5 before it's been cast, so you'd need to be able to see the point where you want to cast it. I agree that there is some ambiguity in the rules but the intent ought to be clear.

[Clement]

I'd argue the opposite. The action doesn't tell you to target a spot on the ground, it says "place the marker within LoS". That it happens to be a huge pillar of flame is immaterial. If that marker is put on the opposite side of a height 4 wall, it can still be within LoS and the abilities requirements have been met.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The question is whether the phrase, place within line of sight refers to placing the the pillar where it can be seen, or place the pillar at a point that can be seen.

I'd interpret it as the latter.

[Makrar]

A question is, are the markers ht 5 at the point of placing or do you place them as if they where ht 0 then they increase to ht 5

 

I think it can only be the first and so as long as any part of the marker in LOS then you can place it

 

Im willing to believe this is maybe not intended though

[zFiend]

If you can't see the point in the first place, then how can you place the markers? If you cannot place them, then how can they become ht 5?

I would argue you need to see the ground.

That was my argument as well. But I think it was countered with them always being ht5 thus they could be placed anywhere as long as the ht5 is in LoS.

[Sholto]

That's a really good question. I have always played it that "within range and LOS" meant LOS to the ground. But when I have been eg. playing summoners, who must summon models "within range and LOS" I have always played it that the model must be in LOS after being placed. Not sure which is right, now.

[Myyrä]

This doesn't really come up with summoning, because Molly is the only one who summons within range and LoS and she can only summon Ht 2 and Ht 1 models.

[Ausplosions]

That's a really good question. I have always played it that "within range and LOS" meant LOS to the ground. But when I have been eg. playing summoners, who must summon models "within range and LOS" I have always played it that the model must be in LOS after being placed. Not sure which is right, now.

 

 

Hmm. That does raise a few questions. I have played it that the model after summoning must be in LOS also.

[Dirial]

This doesn't really come up with summoning, because Molly is the only one who summons within range and LoS and she can only summon Ht 2 and Ht 1 models.

 

Hm? I'm pretty sure, every summoner summons within range and LoS....

 

To be precise, the summoning rules specify that the summoned model must be placed in LoS of the summoner and within range (most often of the action).

[Myyrä]

Hm? I'm pretty sure, every summoner summons within range and LoS....

 

To be precise, the summoning rules specify that the summoned model must be placed in LoS of the summoner and within range (most often of the action).

 

What I meant is that most summoners summon to base contact with target marker or model, which means they need to be able to see the Ht 0 marker. I do admit I hadn't noticed that LoS was stated as requirement in summoning rules themselves. That means that Dreamer and Ramos need LoS too...

[zFiend]

That's why I said the last time that Ramos won't be able to summon the Electrical Creation out of LoS but no one listened! Hah!

[Myyrä]

That's why I said the last time that Ramos won't be able to summon the Electrical Creation out of LoS but no one listened! Hah!

That's why you refer to rules when making statements like this.

[zFiend]

That's why you refer to rules when making statements like this.

Well right back at you in that case my friend

[Clement]

Dreamer also has no "anchor point" for his summons. (Corpse, other model, etc.) And since he's HT 1 and chompy is ?4? this could have a large impact on his play.

[Myyrä]

Luckily no one has yet come up with any good reason why LoS would work differently when placing a model or marker. ("I have always played it like that" is far from good.)

[Ausplosions]

I would say that when summoning the model needs to be in LoS, and just as in that instance, Sonnia needs to be able to see a height 5 flame marker to place it.

[Kadeton]

Luckily no one has yet come up with any good reason why LoS would work differently when placing a model or marker. ("I have always played it like that" is far from good.)

I don't think there is a particularly good reason within the rules - the difference, if there is any, is not described at all.

Beyond the scope of the rules, it seems very cheesy to be able to summon flame pillars on the other side of a building just because that building is only Ht 4. Ht 5 is taller than all models and almost all terrain, which makes the LoS requirement almost pointless.

[dgraz]

 it seems very cheesy to be able to summon flame pillars on the other side of a building just because that building is only Ht 4.

This is where I'm falling in this discussion.

[Godgolden]

I am assuming you need LOS to the point you are summoning the templates.

 

Because how would you draw LOS to something that doesnt exist yet (the templates)