Kirai - What to summon?

[Changeling]

I've only recently started up Malifaux, played a handful of games, and my first Master has been Kirai and I've never looked back. I love the summoning part of this game and I know that I'll be picking up Nicodem soon.

 

But for now Kirai has stolen my heart, and my question is aimed at my fellow players of this wonderful girl:

 

When summoning is there a particular spirit you aim to have out as soon as you can?

 

I know that it can be said that it is all dependant on what cards you have in your hand. But say you have a card high enough to summon something more expensive, do you go straight for it each time or do you go for something you feel is more useful?

 

I admit I can see that summoning is very dependent on the situation, cards in hand, and requirements but I’m asking this in part so that I am aware of what models I need to spend my hard earn cash on.

 

Or should I just buy lots of everything

[zFiend]

I am really digging Shikomes as summons and of course there is the worst summon for your opponent, The Hanged. Though I never summon them straight away, I just hold on to the card for it and summon it at the worst possible time for my opponent

[Naciketas]

I agree with zfiend, Shikome is my go to summon most games. Then it depends on cards and schemes, I like Night Terrors for harassing, so I tend to max them out as soon as possible. The Hanged is fine, but not fit to my strategies and plans, because I preffer close combat and engaging my opponent despite being killed. The Drowned is good for droping scheme markers and when there is a need for one more, they can be handy. Rest of the spirits is up to your taste, Onryo can be really killy sometimes...

[DeleteAccount]

Onryo are my goto face droppers simply because of how it's the easiest way to spread adversary and also chuck that Slow pulse.

[Changeling]

Thanks for the replys.

 

Would you hire any of them as part of your starting crew, or just hire some tough 'wound batteries' to summon them on?

[Clement]

Here's the thing about kirai and undead models. She has exactly two things she can do with them, malevolence and summoning point. All of her buffs and movement tricks really want spirits running around and getting stuff done. As such, I'd say its worth bringing one big wound battery (flesh construct) or perhaps 2 smaller ones (belles), then the rest should be spirits that get the ball rolling.

Edit: expanding on that thought, this comes down to how summoners, in general, should hire crews. The temptation to load up on support and 'just summon' the actual working parts of the crew is very tempting. Fight that urge! You've only got 5 turns to win this thing, you cannot afford to putter around in the deployment zone for a turn or two building the omega swarm. Instead, head up field and supplement with a model or two on the way, then play the attrition game and keep replacing your killed models.

[bonedoc]

i tend to do most of my summoning off seshin

[Kadeton]

i tend to do most of my summoning off seshin

Try summoning off a Flesh Construct for a couple of games instead. They're a bargain-basement price for a huge stock of Wds that essentially regenerates. Free up your Seishin for other things.

[valhallan42nd]

Here's the thing about kirai and undead models. She has exactly two things she can do with them, malevolence and summoning point. All of her buffs and movement tricks really want spirits running around and getting stuff done. As such, I'd say its worth bringing one big wound battery (flesh construct) or perhaps 2 smaller ones (belles), then the rest should be spirits that get the ball rolling.

Edit: expanding on that thought, this comes down to how summoners, in general, should hire crews. The temptation to load up on support and 'just summon' the actual working parts of the crew is very tempting. Fight that urge! You've only got 5 turns to win this thing, you cannot afford to putter around in the deployment zone for a turn or two building the omega swarm. Instead, head up field and supplement with a model or two on the way, then play the attrition game and keep replacing your killed models.

With Swirling Aether, Kirai can beat that game. I can summon twice, heal once, and still move a ton via Into the Spirit World. I generally only do that on turn one or two, but still...

[admanb]

You can't summon twice AND move with Into the Spirit World -- they're both (0) actions.

[valhallan42nd]

You can't summon twice AND move with Into the Spirit World -- they're both (0) actions.

Blood and Wind is a one action, my friend. I don't summon seshin. They're generally not worth it.

[Clement]

With Swirling Aether, Kirai can beat that game. I can summon twice, heal once, and still move a ton via Into the Spirit World. I generally only do that on turn one or two, but still...

 

She's uniquely equipped to do better compared to some other summoners, but you're still talking about an aggressively card hungry turn (2 crows to summon, a mask for Spirit world, and flat discard for the heal).  You also haven't laid out any of the support Kirai needs to do for her spirits to make them really shine (no Mark the soul, no Adversary, etc.)  As you say you might do that on turn 1 only, but I'd still rather bring a few spirits along in my hired pool to speed it up.

 

Spirits have the great benefit of a lot of synergy with each other (Datsue Ba, Onryo, and Shikome all give out adversary),  As such, adding a 4th spirit to the table is much more useful then adding the 2nd.  If I did your psycho summoning turn outlined above, I could be adding models 4 and 5 to the table, now anything that gets Adversary is really just so much meat.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Blood and Wind is a one action, my friend. I don't summon seshin. They're generally not worth it.

 

I have to agree. If I need to summon Seishin I'll use Datsuba (0) Call Fourth on the Spirit Whispers upgrade. I subscribe to valhallan42nd's summon heavy. The things she summon are just ridiculous. Hanged being high on that list of course!

[rancor709]

Summon early heal late. Move your hitters.

[valhallan42nd]

She's uniquely equipped to do better compared to some other summoners, but you're still talking about an aggressively card hungry turn (2 crows to summon, a mask for Spirit world, and flat discard for the heal).  You also haven't laid out any of the support Kirai needs to do for her spirits to make them really shine (no Mark the soul, no Adversary, etc.)  As you say you might do that on turn 1 only, but I'd still rather bring a few spirits along in my hired pool to speed it up.

 

Spirits have the great benefit of a lot of synergy with each other (Datsue Ba, Onryo, and Shikome all give out adversary),  As such, adding a 4th spirit to the table is much more useful then adding the 2nd.  If I did your psycho summoning turn outlined above, I could be adding models 4 and 5 to the table, now anything that gets Adversary is really just so much meat.

I absolutely agree on the card/ss hunger. That's the world of any summoning Resser.  The peril of starting off with a spirit heavy list to start off with is the complete lack of Malevolence threat. My lists start off "cheaply costed undead" heavy, and moves to a spirit based list towards the end. It's not even that I depend on Iryko, I depend on the threat of Iryko to force my opponent into bad decisions. I could hire Undead spirits, but Shikome aren't worth 8 stones to hire, but they are worth a card and ss.

[rancor709]

I fervently disagree on the shikome are bad hire for 8. they are a bad hire for Kirai or Nicodem the 2 masters that can summon them. Outside of that in a poisoned capable crew the shikome is well worth the 8 stones for the mobility and the hitting power. Just as hang can be at 9 stones for masters that can't hit them. 

[valhallan42nd]

I fervently disagree on the shikome are bad hire for 8. they are a bad hire for Kirai or Nicodem the 2 masters that can summon them. Outside of that in a poisoned capable crew the shikome is well worth the 8 stones for the mobility and the hitting power. Just as hang can be at 9 stones for masters that can't hit them. 

 

We're having a Kirai based discussion, Joe. I assumed it was in that context.

Also, I'd like to remind you that I still have :+fate  flips against podcasters.

[rancor709]

Only when were not sober, which is often.

[EntrepeNinja]

/Agree with Joe- I have a sick McMourning list that runs an onryo and a pair of shikome

 

ENinja

[jonahmaul]

/Agree with Joe- I have a sick McMourning list that runs an onryo and a pair of shikome

 

ENinja

Can you share please?  Along with it's secrets?

[EntrepeNinja]

Started a new topic in an attempt to not further hijack the thread.

 

That being said, I like to summon the whole set of spirits- I think saying "I'm only gonna summon x" gives a limit to the flexibility inherent to summoning. Each of these creatures Kirai can summon have a place-

 

Night Terror- Do they have a shooting model you need to interfere with? Dropping the range on a sniper could be fantastic. It's also the easiest thing for Kirai to summon, and while it can't drop scheme markers, it can count for Turf War or Recconoiter, so it's a decent goto if you're playing a numbers game. 

 

Gaki- Are there corpse markers where you don't want them? Do you need a tough self healing model to smash into something? Got an extra AP and a 8 ? How about a Gaki?

 

Onryo- A lighter frame model, but this model is great at handing out adversary- if you've got a gaki or something nearly dead in combat, summoning a Onryo right into melee can be great. Just being hit causes a   of adversary to go out.

 

Shikome- You've got the 12, and need another missile. Even better if there's a target with poison on it, because even slowed it can 1ap charge with scent of death. If you took the summoning upgrade and burn the stone to clear slow, then you can get three attacks off a summoned model? Pretty baller.

 

Drowned- This is one of the ones that is a little more situational. If you've got a Jakuuna or some hazardous terrain on the field they can create a more dangerous pit. 

 

Hanged- Because you have a 13, and hanged are fantastic. Another one that's really fun to drop into melee, as it makes it so they cant charge him, and all the terror checks will go off. His health pool is a little lower, so it's easier to pop him back up to full with a 1ap heal and maybe a chain activated Seishin, he's back at full.

 

 

Her summoning list is already relatively limited- it's less "which of these models is worth summoning", but "in what circumstances are these summons best?" You also need to know when it's time to not summon and play support- heals, ranged adversary, attacks, movement, seishin summons? She's less complex than last version, but she's by no means a simple master now. Get some table time, figure out how they work with your playstyle, and use the summons to shore up deficiencies in your list once the schemes and crews have been revealed and the game has started. 

[Da Git]

I mostly summon just summon at least 1 shikome in the first turn & a friend in the second.  After that, I usually don't actually summon anything else...  I much prefer her other stuff.

 

When the Avatar comes out, if there's no change, her first turn will consist of summon a Seishin, Spirit World to it, Swirl it with Izamu, summon a Shikome & either a Gaki or Onryo to be the sacrificial sod for manifesting...