Proxies and Conversions, how far is to far?

[NIGHTHATER]

When I played almost every weekend with the local gaming group before they quit I had some interesting/annoying situations come up. I am very specific on what looks cool and what doesn't when it comes to models. This is not a unique trait for many people on this site also do conversions or use proxies. Now how far is too far for other players and maybe Wyrd tournaments? I have even had an issue with my ICON the Judge when someone thought it was something else. I was like, "Dude that isn't a proxy, it's actually the Judge with minor conversions." Sadly I'm doing some conversions just so overly fragile weapons don't break off. Also I have had issues with summoning extra Witchlings, Belles, Gremlins...ETC, and someone saying, "If you don't have the model you can't summon anymore". Sigh are people really that serious at non tournaments?

 

 

Do you really have to have more copies of the exact same model?....screw you Nico (don't Arise) style?

 

Is it ok if just a little of the model is the original?....no those are still his shoes?

 

Does half the model have to be original?

 

 

Anyway it's kinda interesting to see what people think, and really interesting if they do tournaments.

 

Nighthater

[Uktena]

When I played almost every weekend with the local gaming group before they quit I had some interesting/annoying situations come up. I am very specific on what looks cool and what doesn't when it comes to models. This is not a unique trait for many people on this site also do conversions or use proxies. Now how far is to far for other players and maybe Wyrd tournaments? I have even had an issue with my ICON the Judge when someone thought it was something else. I was like, "Dude that isn't a proxy, it's actually the Judge with minor conversions." Sadly I'm doing some conversions just so overly fragile weapons don't break off. Also I have had issues with summoning extra Witchlings, Belles, Gremlins...ETC, and someone saying, "If you don't have the model you can't summon anymore". Sigh are people really that serious at non tournaments?

 

 

Do you really have to have more copies of the exact same model?....screw you Nico (don't Arise) style?

 

Is it ok if just a little of the model is the original?....no those are still his shoes?

 

Does half the model have to be original?

 

 

Anyway it's kinda interesting to see what people think, and really interesting if they do tournaments.

 

Nighthater

 

I know I'd like to see at least a reasonable attempt from my fellow players on the model count issue.  I would be very, very unlikely to say that without the appropriate model a Summon ability is disabled.  If we played each other for 6 months or something and Nicodem is still only using 2 zombies and a bunch of proxies then I might get annoyed - but whether I play that opponent or not is my choice. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

In casual play its a little less of an issue, in organized play its huge.

For me I feel if you want to summon, to some extent, you need the models. Now that doesn't mean if you happen to have an exceptional summoning game and you run out of figures that the occasional proxy won't be accepted. Or if you are brand new and don't have the figs cause you only own the nicodem starter that some accommodation can't be reached.

But if you are constantly using off models, non conversions, that don't look anything like what you are summoning, I'd have an issue with that, especially if they weren't painted to match your summons.

There is a difference between, for example, buying a bunch of hollow waifs, painting them to match the rest of your crew, and or giving them a parasol or fan and using them in a crew as extra belles, or running out of punk zombies and ysing one witchling stalker to add in, and saying witchling stalkers are shikome, the Latigo pistolaros are Seishin, and the guild riflemen are Onryo.

[Omenbringer]

I would say that there should be a fairly liberal Proxy and conversion policy (and from what I recall of the Gaining Ground Documents there is), specifically in regards to models that aren't available outside of new plastic crew boxes (and/ or dont allow for max fielding without buying the same crew box for the extras). Having players that fall into these categories penalized because they cant find them on a secondary market or wont re-purchase the crew box in plastic is more than a bit heavy handed.

[Bengt]

My opinions for casual play:

Conversions should be identifiable. Be of similar stature to the original, have the same weapons, etc.

 

Long term proxies, e.g. you like a steam punk sniper woman from another manufacturer and play her as Hans, are fine and should follow the guidelines for conversions.

 

Short term proxies can be anything attached to the correct sized base but should be discussed before each game and actually be short term. E.g. you want to try Kirai but don't have the crew.

 

Summons follow the above. If you haven't prepared properly your summon ability fails.

 

Pretty models are important to me when I play miniature games. If there aren't any to be found I'd rather play Caylus or something.

[marshimartian]

In casual play, you should discuss with your opponent before the game, that way there's no issue after the game has started.

For tournaments, Wyrd uses the following guidelines:

Conversions & Proxies

Proxy models are not allowed in M2E Tournaments. A player must use the official Wyrd Miniatures model. This prevents a score of issues, most notably an opponent not being able to visually "read" the table.

Conversions, however, are acceptable. They are an excellent way to show off your modelling skills, and that is part of the fun. Original sculpts and conversions are allowed if the TO deems them to be accurate representations of the models portrayed. If using a model that was converted with manufactured pieces, no more than 33% of the finished model may be built using other game companies’ models, while the rest must be either wholly or a combination of original sculpt or Wyrd manufactured pieces, as determined by the TO.

If a model has an officially released (non-beta) stat card available, but no model is yet released, the player may field a conversion, but it must be easily identifiable, as per the TO's discretion.

So for conversions or custom sculpts, you simply can't have more than 33% from other companies.

[NIGHTHATER]

I know I'd like to see at least a reasonable attempt from my fellow players on the model count issue.  I would be very, very unlikely to say that without the appropriate model a Summon ability is disabled.  If we played each other for 6 months or something and Nicodem is still only using 2 zombies and a bunch of proxies then I might get annoyed - but whether I play that opponent or not is my choice. 

 

Ya whether you play anyone is your choice, but it still interesting.

 

In casual play its a little less of an issue, in organized play its huge.

For me I feel if you want to summon, to some extent, you need the models. Now that doesn't mean if you happen to have an exceptional summoning game and you run out of figures that the occasional proxy won't be accepted. Or if you are brand new and don't have the figs cause you only own the nicodem starter that some accommodation can't be reached.

But if you are constantly using off models, non conversions, that don't look anything like what you are summoning, I'd have an issue with that, especially if they weren't painted to match your summons.

 

I like you're thought process here, but there is a few issues you really didn't address.

 

Like your opponent is not rich and can not afford lots of models.

 

Your opponent refuses to buy the same models.

 

Your opponent refuses to buy the same models because they would rather get more different crews going.

 

There are other issues I can't think of that I'm sure are reasonable.

 

I would say that there should be a fairly liberal Proxy and conversion policy (and from what I recall of the Gaining Ground Documents there is), specifically in regards to models that aren't available outside of new plastic crew boxes (and/ or dont allow for max fielding without buying the same crew box for the extras). Having players that fall into these categories penalized because they cant find them on a secondary market or wont re-purchase the crew box in plastic is more than a bit heavy handed.

 

This is exactly how I feel on the matter.

 

 

My opinions for casual play:

Conversions should be identifiable. Be of similar stature to the original, have the same weapons, etc.

 

Long term proxies, e.g. you like a steam punk sniper woman from another manufacturer and play her as Hans, are fine and should follow the guidelines for conversions.

 

Short term proxies can be anything attached to the correct sized base but should be discussed before each game and actually be short term. E.g. you want to try Kirai but don't have the crew.

 

Summons follow the above. If you haven't prepared properly your summon ability fails.

 

Pretty models are important to me when I play miniature games. If there aren't any to be found I'd rather play Caylus or something.

 

Ya I think your on the right track with this.

 

 

In casual play, you should discuss with your opponent before the game, that way there's no issue after the game has started.

For tournaments, Wyrd uses the following guidelines:

So for conversions or custom sculpts, you simply can't have more than 33% from other companies.

 

Wyrd has addressed this issue, I'm actually impressed that pretty insightful.

 

Nighthater

 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

To me the issues are non issues. This is a miniatures game, and as such there are certain expectations inherent in playing such a game. One of the appeals of the game is the visual presence on the table, and that's going to be true of alot of people.

I'm not rich, and I have a good amount of models to summon, because I regularly do things for friends like paint their crews, or do commission work freelance to earn the money to acquire new models. Add to this that this is a fairly expensive hobby, which is just a fact of life. I'm not saying you have to be rich to play this game, but its sort if true that you do have to have some means of disposable income to play this or other miniatures games. Its not an elitest attitude its just what it is.

If he refuses to buy enough of the models that he wants to summon. Then his inability to summon is his issue, not mine. There is a reason I don't generally take the Mwahaha upgrade, and the big one is that I don't have the mindless zombies to make it work.

If he'd prefer to get new crews I can understand that, but it isn't a license to ignore that aspect of the game. If I play any game where customization is an aspect its my responsibility to provide for the pieces I wush to play with. If I play netrunner and determine I'd rather spend some money on upgraded components does that mean I have a right to expect that I can use cards in every game I play that I don't own?

[NIGHTHATER]

Fetid Strumpet,

 

I'm not going to turn this is war as I have been talked to in the past about arguing with people on the forums, so I'll just (softly) debate some of the things you said.

 

To me the issues are non issues. This is a miniatures game, and as such there are certain expectations inherent in playing such a game. One of the appeals of the game is the visual presence on the table, and that's going to be true of alot of people.

 

I don't know where you were going with this. You're right people like nice things. Peoples proxies are usually better looking then the original models, though they can be worse too. I do like the visual aspect of table top games.

 

I'm not rich, and I have a good amount of models to summon, because I regularly do things for friends like paint their crews, or do commission work freelance to earn the money to acquire new models. Add to this that this is a fairly expensive hobby, which is just a fact of life. I'm not saying you have to be rich to play this game, but its sort if true that you do have to have some means of disposable income to play this or other miniatures games. Its not an elitest attitude its just what it is.

 

I'm not rich too. It is cool that you do commission work for others to get more models, I respect that. If people have the skill and clients to do that sort of work that is definitely an option.

 

*Add to this that this is a fairly expensive hobby, which is just a fact of life* Why is this statement true? People are almost giving away models on EBAY with free shipping so Malifaux can be extremely inexpensive. Often their giving away rule books and decks with their models. Borrow a tape measure from whoever, go to whoevers house (Grandmas) and borrow yarn and tape to make a 3 by 3 board (taped down on the table). Get whatever works as terrian (The average house contains 50,000 items.) and your good to go. You may have to proxy models for summoning depending on how well the Ebay thing went. Ya playing Malifaux can be insanely cheap if you're creative.

 

*Its not an elitest attitude its just what it is.* Np I didn't think you were saying you're better then anyone else...were good.

 

If he refuses to buy enough of the models that he wants to summon. Then his inability to summon is his issue, not mine. There is a reason I don't generally take the Mwahaha upgrade, and the big one is that I don't have the mindless zombies to make it work.

 

I'm not with you here, it's both of your issues. Start being that strick on the rules I BELIEVE most people would lose the already super small fraction of Malifaux gamers they know. At the end of the day I'd rather play a less then perfect game then not play at all.

 

 

 

Nighthater

[marshimartian]

At the end of the day I'd rather play a less then perfect game then not play at all.

Nighthater

:+

[J_D]

I think Bengt had a good summary, and I am much the same. In the short term, as long as its roughly the same size as what you are playing then I see no issue. Long term (meaning a few months), if you still aren't playing with the correct models or something easily identifiable (ie you are still playing Lilith as Lady J or with pieces of paper stuck on a base), then I might have a word with you and suggest it's time to get it right.

 

Living in Aus, it can sometimes be hard for my LGS (who I always buy through and support) to get stock. So I would probably be a bit more flexible with people not always using Wyrd minis in games

[NIGHTHATER]

 

 Long term (meaning a few months), if you still aren't playing with the correct models or something easily identifiable (ie you are still playing Lilith as Lady J or with pieces of paper stuck on a base), then I might have a word with you and suggest it's time to get it right.

 

J_D,

 

That's kinda wild, I guess I'd get "The talk" . I'm still using Lady Justice as Lilith and have been for quite a long time . Two extremely dangerous women with 2 handed swords seem pretty good as proxies for one another . I just haven't felt the need to work on Lilith and have been on other models . I'm also playing with the faces icons    .

 

Nighthater

[mythicFOX]

I'm with Bengt on this one.

 

In casual play anything on the correct size base will do as a temporary measure.  For the testing we've done at my local club there's actually a 'bucket of proxies' we keep around which consist of ludo counters glued to bases. The key there though is it's temporary, not a permanent matter.

 

In competitive play the model needs to absolutely represent what it's portraying.

 

Overall the test here is usually intent, is this something with artistic / stylistic merit, vs something slapped together for convenience. 

[J_D]

J_D,

 

That's kinda wild, I guess I'd get "The talk" . I'm still using Lady Justice as Lilith and have been for quite a long time . Two extremely dangerous women with 2 handed swords seem pretty good as proxies for one another . I just haven't felt the need to work on Lilith and have been on other models . I'm also playing with the faces icons    .

 

Nighthater

 

I could handle a straight Lady J/Lilith swap, as they are both pretty similar. It's only when after 3 months you are still going "this Lady J is Lilith, and these Death Marshals are Tots, but when they grow they turn in to Witchling Stalkers (or some other equivalent).

 

It's more about the visual representation. If I can see a big arse sword, then I am going to stay away from you. If I see a gun, I'm going to get into melee to mitigate that (generally speaking, I know not all gun people are bad in combat). 

[wizuriel]

I find in my FLGS people are pretty accepting of proxy's and conversions. One big problem I see with Malifaux is older players not being able to get certain models anymore. I for instance have the metal Lady Justice and Death Marshalls and been unable to get a copy of The Judge. Personally I've been using Miss Terious as my stand in for The Judge. 

 

I find people have an easier time accepting Miss Terious as the Judge than my Egg hauler as a Slop Hauler (which is funny cause the Egg Hauler actually properly counts as a Slop Hauler)

[Hateful Darkblack]

Usually I use a stack of towels and a live thrashing snakehead fish to proxy for my whole crew. Some people object, but they're just being sticklers.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Er, what I mean to say is:

 

In a friendly game, really all I care about is that the models have the right base size and don't cause super huge confusion. ("I'm proxying these two models to each other just to annoy you" would probably not be okay, but anything short of that is fine by me.) More beautiful models are better, and unassembled models are annoying but don't really disrupt my play.

 

In a tournament setting, I'd expect my opponent to conform to Gaining Grounds or a reasonable facsimile thereof: 66% of each model is Wyrd or hand-crafted, easily identifiable, painted. More leeway for unreleased models. Proxies are more of a problem than conversions.

[Tuttleboy]

I've got no problem with proxies when the official mini isn't released and don't mind proxies for fun games. Tournaments are different though. Unless the model is unreleased I don't think I'd allow a proxy that wasn't easily identifiable as the model it's replacing. I wouldn't mind it if Gaining Grounds would adopt a 50% must be Wyrd stance instead of a 33% rule. Leaves a lot more room for creativity.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I also paint little names on the base of every model. With spammable models, this helps to keep them separate. With conversions for unreleased models, this helps make the conversion even more clear.

[necroon]

Great topic. 

 

I know, for me, I LOVE seeing conversions and proxies. They Wyrd / Malifaux community has so many creative players as a whole it's always fun to see people re-imagine and interpret models a themes. 

 

 

For me I'd paint the actual model's name on the base so there is no confusion and make sure to keep the actual model handy should the opponent express any amount of confusion or frustration with my proxy. Plus, that way, I get to make sure I support the game I'm playing (which for me is a big thing). 

 

My local group has a bag of plastic miniatures our Henchmen brings with him that we glue and pull off of bases as we need proxies for summons or want to try models we have not used before we buy them. 

[necroon]

Great topic. 

 

I know, for me, I LOVE seeing conversions and proxies. They Wyrd / Malifaux community has so many creative players as a whole it's always fun to see people re-imagine and interpret models a themes. 

 

 

For me I'd paint the actual model's name on the base so there is no confusion and make sure to keep the actual model handy should the opponent express any amount of confusion or frustration with my proxy. Plus, that way, I get to make sure I support the game I'm playing (which for me is a big thing). 

 

My local group has a bag of plastic miniatures our Henchmen brings with him that we glue and pull off of bases as we need proxies for summons or want to try models we have not used before we buy them. 

[Godgolden]

Im sorry, you can't make people play with Ryles model.. just no.

[Tuttleboy]

Have you seen Ryle's new art? It's only going to be worse. I don't mind my pissed off Ryle.

[Omenbringer]

I find in my FLGS people are pretty accepting of proxy's and conversions. One big problem I see with Malifaux is older players not being able to get certain models anymore. I for instance have the metal Lady Justice and Death Marshalls and been unable to get a copy of The Judge. Personally I've been using Miss Terious as my stand in for The Judge. 

 

I find people have an easier time accepting Miss Terious as the Judge than my Egg hauler as a Slop Hauler (which is funny cause the Egg Hauler actually properly counts as a Slop Hauler)

Off topic a bit but I dont recall if your stateside or not however one of the LGS in Cleveland may have it. I can look next time I'm out there if you want.

[NIGHTHATER]

Great topic. 

 

I know, for me, I LOVE seeing conversions and proxies. They Wyrd / Malifaux community has so many creative players as a whole it's always fun to see people re-imagine and interpret models a themes. 

 

 

Necroon,

 

Sweet I got a "Great Topic" that made my day . It's the little things .

 

I love seeing conversions and proxies as well. Most of my conversions are because I hate the look of the model, or the main one is the weapons are too fragile.

 

 

 

Im sorry, you can't make people play with Ryles model.. just no.

 

Godgolden,

 

That funny I just painted Ryles model not to long ago, what a fricken nightmare. I think once I base him I would try to force people to use him just because I suffered so much during the painting of the model .

 

Off topic a bit but I dont recall if your stateside or not however one of the LGS in Cleveland may have it. I can look next time I'm out there if you want.

 

Omenbringer,

 

That's cool that your helping the dude out, I respect that. I sent Wizuriel an email earlier with some options and checked the Wyrd store, ebay, and Amazon. If he can't locate 1 Ill check the local gaming stores in this area whenever I can get out to them. I have a special place in my heart for The Judge...he is my icon after all.

 

Nighthater