LCB vs Lilith for a melee master.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Howdy all, I curious to find a melee focused master for my Neverborn for when killing is the better option. While my other crews are Pandora and Collodi, they arent exactly the run up and smack things type. I know Pandora can be, but thats also based on your opponents list. Basically if it isn't too much to ask, can I get a general comparison between the two in terms of playstle and true killiness, and it would be a LCB dreamer upgrade version, so not the summoner.

[Uktena]

Lilith. LCB has no upgrades except his third AP, which Lil always has before upgrades. She's just way more flexible. I think she's the most flexible NB master there is. So power output is similar to LCB, bit she dictates engagement and that allows her to be a more efficient killer and more defensible.

[Mason]

Yup, it sounds like you want Lilith.  The Dreamer has a nice switch playstyle where he can pull LCB out to wreck some face, but even if you focus on a LCB-focused Dreamer, it's still only half of the coin.  Lilith will be more consistently solid and won't require you to jump through quite so many hoops to stab someone in the face.

[Rathnard]

The others have pretty much nailed, it, but I'll say the same thing in my own words anyway.

 

Dreamer is more of a support/summoning Master with the option to pull out the LCB cruise missile when he feels like it. With the Restless reams upgrade that Cruise missile becomes much more central to his playstyle than if he went the summoning direction, but he's still only about 50% beatstick. 

 

Lilith is the designated "melee Master" for the Neverborn, but don't assume she'll just run up and crack heads, Lady Justice or Viktoria style. She plays much more like a guerrilla fighter, hiding in terrain and isolating enemy models whom she then annihilates with her big sword and/or melee-focused crew. In fact effects that push/move enemy models around are a big part of her playstyle.

 

Another option to consider is Jakob Lynch. The Master himself is not a front-line beater, but his standard crew plays like a swarm of sharks - plant Brilliance on some models and then annihilate them with strong melee models like the Illuminated and Hungering Darkness. In fact if it's pure killing you're after, I'd even consider taking Jakob over the more tactical Lilith. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Jakob puts out as much or more dmg, just by himself, as a frontline beater. He doesn't have a ton of defenses, but his automatic dmg ability when an enemy cheats against him helps ensure the only way he goes down easy is when he is multi ganged.

[Uktena]

Yeah. Been hit with Unload enough times to agree. Also, LOL Restless reams.

[vonevilstein]

I would agree that Lilith is more flexible and always "on tap" as it were. Also Rathnard has a good point about Lil being a guerrilla fighter instead of an all out beatstick. It's a role she *really* excels at.

 

However, I would choose LCB as the outright melee monster. If you take the Tantrum upgrade for the Dreamer and use LCB's (0) "Sleep, my Child", by turn 2 and every turn after that you can quite easily generate 6AP across 2 activations for LCB. When you consider each of those AP can potentially generate more AP, his sheer relentlessness becomes absolutely brutal.

[Insidiously Mad]

You can never get Chompy bits to activate twice in a turn with Tantrum/Restless dreams. Sh attack only gives +1 waking if Chompy hasn't already activated that turn. So only max 3AP for Chompy in a turn barring complex shenanigans (giving dreamer fast with student of conflict after Chompy has used his 0 is the only way I can think of the activate Chompy twice in one turn and it would be crazy resource intensive to do without day dreams)

[jonahmaul]

Don't underestimate Pandora as a melee Master either.  Though she might not be able to wade in on her own but if you can get some Sorrows in close enough then her attacks which are difficult to resist for most crews combined with Misery going off all over the place really bring the damage.

[Adran]

Chompybits isn't a master, so its not really a fair comparison. He also isn't goign to be around eevry turn of the game normally.

If you want a killing master, and welcome to a slightly off the wall suggestion, look at Collodi. His attack is at a huge range with no penalties, an whilst the damage profile might look a little low to begin with, it has a natural plus to all damge flips and is on a nice high stat. On average he'll probably do almost as much damage as lileth and then you have his triggers...

[StaticVortex]

Dreamer is my first love, and favorite master...so my first thought was 'Chompy', of course.  Then I started considering my games with Lilith, who delivered melee so effectively.  A side to side comparison later and I have decided that it depends...on who you are sending them up against.

 

Wounds:

• Lilith lacks healing
• Chompy starts with 3 damage but can heal

Attacks:

• Chompy chooses between two, one with a   and more damage, but lower starting ml value; the other a higher ml value but lower damage spread.  Good triggers on both attacks: the always useful 'free' attack, and either preventing SS usage or forcing discard/SS to stay alive.
• Lilith has a single attack with a high damage spread, high starting ml, and built in   however only one trigger to draw a card (quite useful)

Defense:

• Chompy is terrifying!  12, that is...but lower df
• Lilith has high df, and a trigger that lowers the ml of an opponent on missed attacks.  She also has black blood, which can be used defensively.

 

Both can go toe to toe with most, or, toe to claw...if it were.  The most notable difference is their wp...this is Lilith's weakness and where Chompy has strength.  So if I am facing Pandora for instance...from purely a melee perspective, I would rather have Chompy.  Against df, I'd prefer Lilith.

 

That only takes into consideration brute melee strength....as others have pointed out, Lilith is by far more flexible.

[The Godlyness]

I think you mean 7 wounds. Not 3. Suffers 3 damage of his 10. Otherwise what a waste I sneeze at him poop dreamer in a bad position now little boy crys moar.

[StaticVortex]

I think you mean 7 wounds. Not 3. Suffers 3 damage of his 10. Otherwise what a waste I sneeze at him poop dreamer in a bad position now little boy crys moar.

Yes...I meant that to come out as 3 damage...will make moar clearerest.

[Wence]

Another point tin Lilith's favor for being slightly more synergistic with Nekima, a model that can do a ton of damage that can be expedited using some of Lilith's abilities.  And while I've never actually seen anyone do it, she can become a master herself.  I agree that Jacob/Hungering Darkness and the Brilliance mechanics can do a horrendous amount of damage, and the themed models tend to be fairly resilient as well.

[Uktena]

Another point tin Lilith's favor for being slightly more synergistic with Nekima, a model that can do a ton of damage that can be expedited using some of Lilith's abilities.  And while I've never actually seen anyone do it, she can become a master herself.  I agree that Jacob/Hungering Darkness and the Brilliance mechanics can do a horrendous amount of damage, and the themed models tend to be fairly resilient as well.

 

Yeah, and if Lilith ever fails to pull her weight in the killiness department during a game, Nekima can kill her and take her spot.

 

#REALMOM

[Tuttleboy]

I didn't read every post, but 1 thing to consider is that Lilith is always on the table and at most LCB will be there every other turn. She also has so many crazy movement shenanigans and doesn't need real LoS for anything she does. She's flat out the best master/henchman beatstick in the game IMO. I know lots will say big sister is better, but I think that in any 40 SS game that Lilith will top Nekima at least 80% of the time.

[vonevilstein]

You can never get Chompy bits to activate twice in a turn with Tantrum/Restless dreams. Sh attack only gives +1 waking if Chompy hasn't already activated that turn. So only max 3AP for Chompy in a turn barring complex shenanigans (giving dreamer fast with student of conflict after Chompy has used his 0 is the only way I can think of the activate Chompy twice in one turn and it would be crazy resource intensive to do without day dreams)

Doh! That shows how long since I played him - and that I didn't read the final version!  

 

Well I have to say that double activation was op but during the beta I did mention that if was taken away (as it should be) then there should be a reason to choose Restless Dreams over Dreams of Pain. Looks like that reason was never added. As much as I love the background, feel and models of The Dreamer, DoP is just not a play style I personally enjoy - so I'm glad I made the switch to Ten Thunders (not that I was regretting the decision anyway)!

 

To the OP, now I'm aware of the actual rules.. , there's no contest. Lilith all the way. If you had one choice to take to a tournament or for a campaign, not only is Lilith much more of a melee toolbox, as Tuttleboy says she outputs much more melee AP. In effect making her just better at melee overall. I also think that Rathnard is right - you can't really view The Dreamer as anything other than a support/summoner.

[jonahmaul]

And while I've never actually seen anyone do it, she can become a master herself

Happened between two mates of mine!  The one was hell bent on killing Lilith having suffered at her hands before and didn't know about Nekima's rules so managed to kill off Lilith with a lot of effort then Nekima pounded the rest of his crew into the ground!

[Bodiless]

Another option to consider is Jakob Lynch. The Master himself is not a front-line beater, but his standard crew plays like a swarm of sharks - plant Brilliance on some models and then annihilate them with strong melee models like the Illuminated and Hungering Darkness. In fact if it's pure killing you're after, I'd even consider taking Jakob over the more tactical Lilith. 

 

I'll second this. If you are looking for a master/crew that races forward and flat-out murders things Lynch and Co are second to none. A really frightening percentage of his standard crew will hit for a weak of 4 damage once you get Brilliance up. I've played quite a few games with him now, and I honestly can only think of two times where I got Brilliance on a model and didn't kill it by the end of the turn.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Thanks guy, this thread has been very helpful.