Calmdown Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Surviving heart attacks is clearly OP. cuddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Thankfully it was not a heart attack. Just one of those rare side effects from taking steroids (I had some bad poison ivy from whitewater rafting). But yeah, there I was typing up my collodi strategy and f*ck whats that, $$$$$$$$ my arm is going numb. maybe I should go to the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Glad to hear you're alright, Dolomyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad the Mad Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Kinda off topic, but I just couldn't help but leave a comment... That said, the reason that the 'other' list (Twins, Copellius, etc) is better is not because Alps were not broken, it's because Lelu/Lilitu are even *more* broken than Alps are. The main problem that I have with the twins in terms of game balance is that they are Nephilim-Woe-Nightmares... if they would be only Nephilim they would still be strong, possibly still under-priced, but much better than now IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 The main problem that I have with the twins in terms of game balance is that they are Nephilim-Woe-Nightmares... if they would be only Nephilim they would still be strong, possibly still under-priced, but much better than now IMO. Balancing Nightmares is a crazy hard thing to do since ideally they would work for normal crews but not be over powering in the insanity that is the Dreamer crew. In other words, you need to come up with models that work both with and without limitless movement. No small task to get right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I love the twins so much I have two sets of them. The problem I see with them is that they are so good that I have to give myself reasons not to take them in any neverborn list. I play all book 1 masters (dreamer just arrived in the mail) and the twins work well with all of them. They are Nephilim, and fit in just fine with Lilith. They both have WP based spells which give them some synergy with Pandora, besides the awesome amount of damage they can do. Lure also allows for enemies to be brought within the 12 inch death bubble of Pandora. They can both be obeyed by Zoraida. For 14 points, I think they are easily almost aways a better choice than 1 10 point Mature Nephilim, or two 6 point Young Nephilim. I specifically try not to take the twins as a handicap and to make the game fun for my opponent. The twins are the closest thing to an auto include for me that I have seen for any faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schristofersen Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) the reason that the 'other' list (Twins, Copellius, etc) is better is not because Alps were not broken, it's because Lelu/Lilitu are even *more* broken than Alps are. That is soooo you changing stream now that Alps are cuddled. You were loud and proud about how broken Alps were. Claiming that the twins are *more* broken now isn't going to fly with anyone that has been paying attention and thats not being "chic". They are certainly powerful, at 7 SS they better be, as there are not many low SS significant models for the dreamer to claim strategy and schemes with so you'd better be able to beat face and be survivable. The dreamer is still strong but claiming *more* imbalanced is silly. Edited October 4, 2011 by schristofersen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) That is soooo you changing stream now that Alps are cuddled. You were loud and proud about how broken Alps were. Claiming that the twins are *more* broken now isn't going to fly with anyone that has been paying attention and thats not being "chic". They are certainly powerful, at 7 SS they better be, as there are not many low SS significant models for the dreamer to claim strategy and schemes with so you'd better be able to beat face and be survivable. The dreamer is still strong but claiming *more* imbalanced is silly. Nice chic reply. In case anyone is still on topic, I'm not finding Alps to be an optimal choice in Dreamer lists. There are simply too many better Neverborn models that don't cost the earth (enough alps to kill things is expensive) and that you can actively use rather than relying on passive abilities and low-Ca active spells. I think, in terms of "anti-Dreamer" thought processes, that seeing a Dreamer player running Alps gives you plenty of weakness to exploit. gg. Edited October 4, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 The Dreamer isn't the only master that can move to the opponent's deploy zone on the first turn. Leveticus can do it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Can Leveticus not only get there but also drop off his whole crew there and kill an important model in 1 activation? Serious Question not snark. Leveticus isn't played in our area and I've never heard of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) The Dreamer isn't the only master that can move to the opponent's deploy zone on the first turn. Leviticus can do it too. I must admit, I'm intrigued by this. Do tell how. Edit: Or rather, how he can do it in such a way that it is actually useful. Edited October 5, 2011 by Lucidicide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akujie Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 No. LCB is only one who can come in kill a model, drop a crew and get back into his own deployement in one activation. Several others can scream across the board and maybe get an attack or kill something but they won't be able to fall back again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stern Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Can Leveticus not only get there but also drop off his whole crew there and kill an important model in 1 activation? Serious Question not snark. Leveticus isn't played in our area and I've never heard of this. Yes he can.. If you wanted but I wouldn't do it just because. I find it a situational tactic if an opponent has deployed badly and you can pounce on one or a few guys.. hide a bit then jump the next few guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demkoenig Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 How does Levi get across the Table on Turn One? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Certainly not under his own power. Even with 3 walks, 3" doesn't take you far, and none of his spells help with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Rusty Alyce gives him Reactivate, Molly increases his walk, and Levi has a (0) action to walk. Its not as easy as the Dreamer, as you have to cast spells and can't summon your army, but he can turn model(s) into Steampunk Abominations. Or if you kill Levi, you can summon Kill joy and/or Bete and they are dangerous. Plus you don't have to worry if your opponent kills him, he will come back next turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Uhhh, Fading Memory, a couple of thoughts; 1 reactivate only works on constructs 2 if he dies (which you want, you get no carddraw otherwise), he'll ressurect next to a hollow waif, so the real problem is getting him next to a Hollow Waif, and having got the Hollow Waif across the table, admittedly, Imbue Vigor (Molly's+3"Wkspell)) should help, but not get you across the table turn 1. However that does not take away that minus the keeper people I know are a lot more scared of Leveticus then of for example Pandora, because if he sais, I can see that model if I move 3 (6 with molly) ", and I want it dead, it's gone man (sometimes 12" is sufficient (if he has 8Wd or less ) and sometimes 18" (always with Mollly) (3Wd or less) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Uhhh, Fading Memory, a couple of thoughts; 1 reactivate only works on constructs 2 if he dies (which you want, you get no carddraw otherwise), he'll ressurect next to a hollow waif, so the real problem is getting him next to a Hollow Waif, and having got the Hollow Waif across the table, admittedly, Imbue Vigor (Molly's+3"Wkspell)) should help, but not get you across the table turn 1. However that does not take away that minus the keeper people I know are a lot more scared of Leveticus then of for example Pandora, because if he sais, I can see that model if I move 3 (6 with molly) ", and I want it dead, it's gone man (sometimes 12" is sufficient (if he has 8Wd or less ) and sometimes 18" (always with Mollly) (3Wd or less) ) I got the idea from a friend. After looking things over, I don't know what he was talking about, and now I sound like the crazy one. I'm really confused now. I don't play Levi so I was unsure of his models and assumed Alyce could give him reactivate. I will have to ask him tomorrow about it. Edited October 5, 2011 by Fading Memory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 The Dreamer isn't the only master that can move to the opponent's deploy zone on the first turn. Leveticus can do it too. But the Dreamer/Chompy *is* the only one who can do it and get all the way back to his starting point, needs minimal low cards for it to be successful, has a full 3ap to spend when he gets there, and is one of the scariest motherloving melee monsters in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 ^^ Pandora can do it to - with some damage output in there as well. Unfortunately for her though, she'll probably die afterwards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'll grant you that I would struggle to find another master that can get his whole crew into the opponents deployment zone on turn 1. (Although Collodi and Zoraida is probably looking close and I can possibly get over 25 points of showgirls and colette there in one turn) He is possibly also the only one that can get to his opponents deployment zone and back in one activation, but I'm not 100% sure on that either. (Any other groups that do it, wil be largely spendign their time doing that rather than anything else) But the Dreamer can't activate his whole crew in 1 activation, double the soulstone value of his crew, or come back from the dead as some other masters can do. I'm guessing by now we know what the dreamer is capable of and don't need to go over that. The recent errata have largely effected 1 model that the Dreamer might have taken, and has really only completly ruined 1 list, which I personally didn't rate that highly. The Alp still has most of the secondary power that it had last week, it is just less good at killing models and completing objectives. The rest of the Dreamer lists are just about as good as they were before. And threads that include the word Dreamer are still ending at the same point, just possibly taking a slightly different route there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 The Dreamer isn't the only master that can move to the opponent's deploy zone on the first turn. Leveticus can do it too. I'm pretty sure collodi can get there, but im not sure he can do anything when he actually does. The wicked dolls could start teleporting in, but people would have time to beat on marionettes and collodi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 No but but the dreamer can drop 2 lelu & 2 stitched in your crew and a lilitu upfield, kill a model, pop back into his deployment zone. You get an action Dreamer then bond activates the lelu's and Lilitu and most likely kills 2-3 more models on his second activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 This is true Fetid. I think maybe having the twins being rare 1 might be an interesting option. Possibly have a slight change to the dreamers ability "all my friends" make it instead of 1 it is increased to 3 or another number in the under 5 range. As for the Alps...now I hope to see them in the position of board control and activation control. 2 alps running about together causing the wp flip on a negative to recieve slow. I think it far more dangerous now to have the dreamer say...drop a pair of alps and maybe a Teddy or a Lelu on a model or small cluster of models. You activate,get slowed so your options are limited. The change to the Alps actually makes me expect to see them in small numbers in a lot of lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studderingdave Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 so what is the major change to alps than? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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