Does Nellie overshadow McCabe?

[Math Mathonwy]

Some masters will always be overshined. This happens to Guild Lucius and Guild McCabe (because Nellie).

This was said by the esteemed @trikk himself.

Is it true? Does Nellie overshadow McCabe in Guild?

I have considered McCabe to be the cream of the crop and this position kinda came from the left field. I mean, I do realize that Nellie is the dogs' bollocks but still? Obsoleting McCabe? Damn...

[trikk]

Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

This was said by the esteemed @trikk himself.

Is it true? Does Nellie overshadow McCabe in Guild?

I have considered McCabe to be the cream of the crop and this position kinda came from the left field. I mean, I do realize that Nellie is the dogs' bollocks but still? Obsoleting McCabe? Damn...

I think the only 2 things McCabe has over Nellie are: significant dogs with Luna and the fact that if his crew gets wiped out you still have some damage while Nellie is just mildlly annoying but I don`t really see a scheme pool where McCabe would work better than Nellie.

[4thstringer]

Maybe in recon/interference?  Those dogs are awful effective in those, but I'm not sure they compare to nellies activation control.

[trikk]

15 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Maybe in recon/interference?  Those dogs are awful effective in those, but I'm not sure they compare to nellies activation control.

I play a lot of Nellie with Dogs. In Recon/Interference you don`t really get much more from McCabe as Hounds don`t have to be significant to score VP in those.

[4thstringer]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

I play a lot of Nellie with Dogs. In Recon/Interference you don`t really get much more from McCabe as Hounds don`t have to be significant to score VP in those.

I've always figured if I'm gonna run that many dogs, they better be doing other schemes too.  But TBF I've played a fair amount against Lucas and not that much with.  Dogs never seem to make my nellie lists.

[Ludvig]

@trikk

Have you played them against each other? 

It just sound wrong to me but I don't have the Nellie experience to know. 

[trikk]

13 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@trikk

Have you played them against each other? 

It just sound wrong to me but I don't have the Nellie experience to know. 

What do you mean "against each other"?

Did I play Nellie vs Guild McCabe? No.

I am however biased because I hate McCabe but I don`t really think he offers more than Nellie in any scheme pool.

That said I wouldn`t say he is a bad master.

[Ludvig]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

What do you mean "against each other"?

Did I play Nellie vs Guild McCabe? No.

That's what I was asking. Seems the most straightforward way to determine if something is a lot better than something else in the same pool.

Quote

I am however biased because I hate McCabe but I don`t really think he offers more than Nellie in any scheme pool.

That said I wouldn`t say he is a bad master.

What?! How can anyone hate McCabe?!  

If you say he is "always overshined" it implies Nellie is hands down better, not just that they offer about the same thing but you prefer her playstyle. I usually value your opinion since I've seen you in action but I'll take this with a grain of salt if you hate McCabe, it could just be personal preference on your part.

[trikk]

10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

That's what I was asking. Seems the most straightforward way to determine if something is a lot better than something else in the same pool.

What?! How can anyone hate McCabe?!  

If you say he is "always overshined" it implies Nellie is hands down better, not just that they offer about the same thing but you prefer her playstyle. I usually value your opinion since I've seen you in action but I'll take this with a grain of salt if you hate McCabe, it could just be personal preference on your part.

The issue is that there is a skill level factor but I honestly don`t see anything in McCabe that would be better.

 

That said I don`t think he`s a bad master. I`d probably rank him 3rd-4th in Guild pre- Wave 5 but he basically got a 1SS save compared to the rest (some people like him for Collect as he doesn`t give out a lot of points) but he and Lucius are IMHO hurt by Nellie the most (also Lucius being Lucius hurts him even more)

[Ludvig]

Doesn't he suck in collect because he gives out master-VP twice?

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Doesn't he suck in collect because he gives out master-VP twice?

If you`re unlucky. But you can always dismount/do the sacrifice thing if threatened.

[PanzerHarris]

Surprise surprise, I'm going to go and disagree with Trikk again.

My experience with the two Masters is that McCabe is quite happy to have his crew spread out, and he makes weaker models much stronger courtesy of throwing out upgrades. Nellie makes stronger models do more but isn't so happy when you need to cover a huge amount of ground.

McCabe is still my Interference / Recon go-to and I can't see that changing.

[trikk]

17 minutes ago, PanzerHarris said:

Surprise surprise, I'm going to go and disagree with Trikk again.

My experience with the two Masters is that McCabe is quite happy to have his crew spread out, and he makes weaker models much stronger courtesy of throwing out upgrades. Nellie makes stronger models do more but isn't so happy when you need to cover a huge amount of ground.

McCabe is still my Interference / Recon go-to and I can't see that changing.

Did you fry to play her with 3-4 Hounds? I did and it works

You have the same amount of models McCabe does. You have better activation control. You have better board control. McCabe is not a bad pick or master but IMHO he doesn't do anything Nellie doesn't do better.

 

Of course there is personal preference and experience with masters factor which I won't deny.

[PanzerHarris]

Allison Dade and a pack of Hounds is a thing I'm dropping into many crews at the moment and it's proving to be really funny. She drops scheme markers (Transparency) off targets which lets the dogs charge in and get 3 attacks, and them being there means there are Guardsmen present for her attacks. Throwing her a Glowing Sabre can be amusing too...

McCabe is the Hound king. Or rather Luna is the Hound queen. They're just so much more useful with him than Nellie because they can always scheme run whilst being in the relevant table quarter. With Nellie you're much more restricted because there have to be at least 2 in the same area to interact.

I'd disagree over board control. Propaganda has to be cast and can be resisted. Badge of Speed doesn't and McCabe is ridiculously mobile. With the right set-up a McCabe crew can be extremely hard to catch up with and there's very little an opponent can do about it.

Nellie's control elements need to be cast, and if you have my card luck it's not uncommon to have turns where she doesn't actually accomplish anything. I have never had that with McCabe.

Granted, my bias is probably against Nellie. I just didn't find her that much fun. I'll still pick her in games, but the table quarters ones are all about horses and dogs for me.

[4thstringer]

17 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

This was said by the esteemed @trikk himself.

Is it true? Does Nellie overshadow McCabe in Guild?

I have considered McCabe to be the cream of the crop and this position kinda came from the left field. I mean, I do realize that Nellie is the dogs' bollocks but still? Obsoleting McCabe? Damn...

How come no one is arguing that Guild Lucius isn't overshadowed by Nellie?  Thralls for days!!!!!!!!!

[PanzerHarris]

Lucius is bloody awesome and even more so with wave 5. Didn't realise anyone still thought he wasn't a strong pick. 

[4thstringer]

Lucius is my only true love, and the changelings/doppelganger open up so much jank I can't build a good list because I am spending too much time trying to break the design space.

[Legislat]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Lucius is my only true love, and the changelings/doppelganger open up so much jank I can't build a good list because I am spending too much time trying to break the design space.

Hahaha, so true. I have like 30+ different Lucius lists saved up. My head spins every time i think about something new with him.

[Gnomezilla]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Lucius is my only true love, and the changelings/doppelganger open up so much jank I can't build a good list because I am spending too much time trying to break the design space.

Ah, changelings: yet another reason we can't have positive flips to Ca (if I've missed one which isn't a generic boost to all attack flips, please let me know).

As for Nellie...I enjoyed out-of-activation reaction far too much and nobody else brings that, unless defensive tech (armor, useless duplications discard) counts as such. Which it might. Still, there is one area McCabe can't compete in.

[FinalForm]

On 22.08.2017 at 1:27 AM, Ludvig said:

@trikk

Have you played them against each other? 

 

I did.
Core of my list was Peacekeeper with debt, franc with debt and wade in and bishop with debt. Opponent killed my keeper with glowing saber on mounted guard+franc. On the second action of second turn my bishop killed luna and mccabe and locked enemy franc. On third action my franc killed Dade.
My schemes were to kill leader and the most costy model(dade).
That was 9-2 game.

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, FinalForm said:

I did.
Core of my list was Peacekeeper with debt, franc with debt and wade in and bishop with debt. Opponent killed my keeper with glowing saber on mounted guard+franc. On the second action of second turn my bishop killed luna and mccabe and locked enemy franc. On third action my franc killed Dade.
My schemes were to kill leader and the most costy model(dade).
That was 9-2 game.

Sounds like your opponent picked the wrong schemes and models if they didn't score from killing the PK and had Dade as their most expensive model.

[EnternalVoid]

Was not originally going to weigh in but what the heck.

Personally for me Nellie is not overshadowing McCabe, she is just another option.  With Nellie I like having 2-3 hitters which she can boost and support where with McCabe I often have a force that is all or almost all minions and willing to spread out more, so for me they do not overlap as much. 

[trikk]

2 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Was not originally going to weigh in but what the heck.

Personally for me Nellie is not overshadowing McCabe, she is just another option.  With Nellie I like having 2-3 hitters which she can boost and support where with McCabe I often have a force that is all or almost all minions and willing to spread out more, so for me they do not overlap as much. 

Nellie doesn`t have any restrictions on hiring minions. She can, like, have 4 dogs too. And buffing 2-3 hitters is a lot better with Nellie than with McCabe because I still think Fast Frank/Phiona > Nimble Thrall.

 

I`m not saying that McCabe is a bad master. I`m saying that when you can take McCabe you can probably take Nellie and have a slightly easier time due to her movement manipulation combined with extra AP generation combined with activation control.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

Nellie doesn`t have any restrictions on hiring minions. She can, like, have 4 dogs too. And buffing 2-3 hitters is a lot better with Nellie than with McCabe because I still think Fast Frank/Phiona > Nimble Thrall.

 

I`m not saying that McCabe is a bad master. I`m saying that when you can take McCabe you can probably take Nellie and have a slightly easier time due to her movement manipulation combined with extra AP generation combined with activation control.

But Re-activated Nimble Thrall>fast Frank/Phiona

[Ludvig]

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

But Re-activated Nimble Thrall>fast Frank/Phiona

Takes him less ap to do it as well, right?